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While there has been a certain amount of smugness from Republicans about the failures of US solar companies, the situation in wind power is perhaps even worse.

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ORIGINAL: samboct

While there has been a certain amount of smugness from Republicans about the failures of US solar companies, the situation in wind power is perhaps even worse.

China has come to dominate the wind power industry in less than 5 years- with 4 companies in the top 10 of wind turbine manufacturers accounting for 1/3rd of the market of these firms, and with installations in 2010 that surpassed both the US and Europe- COMBINED! Chinese installations cracked 15 GW, while the US installations dropped a calamitous 50%, from 10 GW in 2009 to 5GW in 2010. Europe also fell slightly, to 9.9 GW, even with more offshore installations. See this article here: http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/02/02/global-wind-capacity-increases-by-22-in-2010-asia-leads-growth/

Can we please stop hitting the snooze button? The US wind industry has something like 83,000 employees, but there's no reason it shouldn't have 10x that given the increases in the global market, since other countries are beginning to install wind turbines, including India, Brazil, and Egypt.

From my perspective, this is really aggravating, because the US was the global leader by the early 80s thanks to some great R+D by NASA and NREL in the 70s. Another wonderful legacy of Ronnie Rayguns.....

Sam

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx


---Spec, I was implying that US buyers don't even bother with it, they see what ever shit they can get cheap and sell it regardless.

That is not how it works. Everything that comes here is made to the buyers specifications...including snap-on tools...yes I have been in the factory where they are made and snap-on has their own qc guys there to make sure. Try to find "made in the usa" on a snap on tool. It says "snap-on usa" which is the companys name and not where they are made.

I know, but that is true with US companies that manufacture there. Places like HF or Wally World don't alway function like that. Chinese will buy US trademarks and manufacture under them. Then peddle stuf they made, not necessarily meeting US spec

Last job we quoted the panels by themselves were in the $1/W range. I don't want to get our wholesale arrangements in jeopordy by disclosing our company's trade agreements. We only save 0.1-0.15$/w on the chinese panels wholesale. Retail you still get hosed.


Retail in southern california is about $8/watt...I have heard from others that the prices are similar in co.
Grid-tie you you should retail installed at $6-7/watt in Denver, If you got a fair installer

You won't get much feed back on small system instals of Chinese solar, one they are often made by US companies in china and meet higher specs,
I think I mentioned that in an earlier post as well as this one...that china will make what you ask the to.
If you buy Chinese Brand, that's different. If it is evergreen made in China that's one thing, if it !@&*($((#&$ Solar that's another

two the average consumer won't realize their system is underperforming.

You obviously know a different type of consumer than I do. Everyone I know who is on solar understands their system fully.
They usually do, if they are the technocratic. Now it is a little more mainstream, more consumers who just say make it work. Even if you understand it fully, unless you have sophisticated equipment to validate the system you really just won't know. I have had to address a number of panel warrantee issues considering my line of work. I have seen Chinese panels right off the line that are 10-15% off the name plate. One or two panels like that on a roof system will not be noticed, even by a knowledgeable consumer. There are many reasons systems will naturally not live up to the name plate. Without the proper equipment you cannont validate it. We test all our systems to meet spec and do a one year follow up. There is a dramatic difference in quality.

They don't go out and test their stuff. Utility scale is a real difference. Often the cheaper Chinese products just don't live up to their spec. Same with batteries. American batteries will see 500-600 80% DoD cycles before significantly depreciated.


I do not use golf cart batteries. Mine (american made 2 volt 600 amp) have more than 7000 cycles and are still performing to the projected curve.
Lead acid? You can see cycle lifes in the thousands depending on DoD. Cycling to 10-20% depth of discharge you can expect cycle lifes 5000-10,000. The true deep cycle tests down to 80%DoD, most lead acids will lose 40% of their capacity after 500-600 cycles if they are a good battery. At 40% degradation, they are considered due for replacement by industry standards (however you can still keep using them)

Chinese ones will only see about 200-300 cycles. Considering you only save 40% on the chinese, they are no value if you do the math.

I have spoken with some of the chinese battery manufactures who exhibit at the ces(consumer electronics show) in las vegas. I did not find any signifcant price difference for their premium line when shipping costs were added.
The Chinese aren't taking over by making premium equitably priced product, they are doing it by flooding the market with cheap substandard product. Even premium chinese product won't meet the plate purity specs we build to here (They just can't get it in China). Often they will underperform, even if slightly to competive US product

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I know, but that is true with US companies that manufacture there. Places like HF or Wally World don't alway function like that. Chinese will buy US trademarks and manufacture under them. Then peddle stuf they made, not necessarily meeting US spec

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Retail in southern california is about $8/watt...I have heard from others that the prices are similar in co.
Grid-tie you you should retail installed at $6-7/watt in Denver, If you got a fair installer

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I do not use golf cart batteries. Mine (american made 2 volt 600 amp) have more than 7000 cycles and are still performing to the projected curve.

Lead acid? You can see cycle lifes in the thousands depending on DoD. Cycling to 10-20% depth of discharge you can expect cycle lifes 5000-10,000. The true deep cycle tests down to 80%DoD, most lead acids will lose 40% of their capacity after 500-600 cycles if they are a good battery. At 40% degradation, they are considered due for replacement by industry standards (however you can still keep using them)

My batteries were used when I got them and they were from an ups that the air force was using at some remote site. They becam excess property when they closed the site and were put up for public auction. Yes they are lead acid (agm type) and I would never think of discharging them more than 10%. To do so would be ....hmmm nice word would be foolish

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I have spoken with some of the chinese battery manufactures who exhibit at the ces(consumer electronics show) in las vegas. I did not find any signifcant price difference for their premium line when shipping costs were added.

The Chinese aren't taking over by making premium equitably priced product, they are doing it by flooding the market with cheap substandard product. Even premium chinese product won't meet the plate purity specs we build to here (They just can't get it in China). Often they will underperform, even if slightly to competive US product

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ORIGINAL: MileHighM

While areas of South/North Dakota, Kansas, and other plains states have pretty decent wind, who the hell lives there?

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: MileHighM

While areas of South/North Dakota, Kansas, and other plains states have pretty decent wind, who the hell lives there?

I live in Kansas, you bat rastard.

Actually I have passed many a wind mill while traveling for work. The question I have that I have never gotten an answer for, is how long do these wind mills take to pay off.

It takes X amount of energy to build the factories to make the wind mills and X amount of energy to build the wind mills themselves. You can continue with everything else that goes into creating wind farms. How long does it take for a wind mill to pay off its energy debt for bringing it into existence?

Part of this equation needs to be on the replacement parts. You see the blades being trucked down the interstates. Has the wind mill paid off its energy debt before needing to use more energy to create replacement parts?

So. . . what is the energy cost, debt, and repayment? Are wind farms really efficient?

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Retail in southern california is about $8/watt...I have heard from others that the prices are similar in co.
Grid-tie you you should retail installed at $6-7/watt in Denver, If you got a fair installer

I am about six miles from the nearest power line, so grid tie is not an option for me.
The price I mentioned above is for pannels only no installation.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You obviously know a different type of consumer than I do. Everyone I know who is on solar understands their system fully.
They usually do, if they are the technocratic. Now it is a little more mainstream, more consumers who just say make it work. Even if you understand it fully, unless you have sophisticated equipment to validate the system you really just won't know.

When one spends the kind of money required to have dependable a.e. the cost of test equipment is minimal. When I first put my system in all I had was a fluke meter,a hydrometer and a load tester...less than $300.00. About five years ago I bought one of the new load testers...it was a little over $200 if I remember. It does everything except make coffee.

I have had to address a number of panel warrantee issues considering my line of work. I have seen Chinese panels right off the line that are 10-15% off the name plate.

Yes I have seen the same with american made pannel also. While I am acquainted with several solar installers I am not one. I purchased, installed and maintain my own system.
One or two panels like that on a roof system will not be noticed, even by a knowledgeable consumer. There are many reasons systems will naturally not live up to the name plate. Without the proper equipment you cannont validate it. We test all our systems to meet spec and do a one year follow up. There is a dramatic difference in quality.

I am in the market for another 1000 watts of pannels. If you can hook me up at that $1/watt price I will come to co. and pick them up.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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I do not use golf cart batteries. Mine (american made 2 volt 600 amp) have more than 7000 cycles and are still performing to the projected curve.

Lead acid? You can see cycle lifes in the thousands depending on DoD. Cycling to 10-20% depth of discharge you can expect cycle lifes 5000-10,000. The true deep cycle tests down to 80%DoD, most lead acids will lose 40% of their capacity after 500-600 cycles if they are a good battery. At 40% degradation, they are considered due for replacement by industry standards (however you can still keep using them)

My batteries were used when I got them and they were from an ups that the air force was using at some remote site. They becam excess property when they closed the site and were put up for public auction. Yes they are lead acid (agm type) and I would never think of discharging them more than 10%. To do so would be ....hmmm nice word would be foolish