RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:18:25 PM)

A tid bit of information I knew was out there and just found...



The US gov owes roughly $4.5 trillion (2009) (37.5% of the national debt) to its own citizens, whether it be retirees, federal employee benefits and other funds. The remaining is owed to the market. The US Gov can choose to default on its obligations to its own employees and citizens in the most dire of circumstances. It is also important to note that the US defaulting on IGH obligations would not have a per se effect on the treasury bills, notes, bond markets as IGH are nonmarketable. I can see the US defaulting on IGH obligations before it ever defaults on its marketable securities.

Now, wouldnt it make more sense to pay down public debt?




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:24:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now, wouldnt it make more sense to pay down public debt?



Does that change the fact that if you are borrowing to pay down debt, you're still taking on debt?




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:33:07 PM)

You keep insiting they were referring to debt.. they werent.

Fact remains that he balanced his budget and he paid down public debt.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:35:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Fact remains that he balanced his budget and he paid down public debt.



Fact remains, if you owe more at the end of the year, you haven't balanced the budget.

Fact also remains, every single of Clinton's years, they owed more at the end of the year.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:38:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You keep insiting they were referring to debt.. they werent.


Oh, who am I "insisting" is referring to, well, anything?




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 9:46:33 PM)

The public debt increases or decreases as a result of the annual unified budget deficit or surplus. The federal government budget deficit or surplus is the cash difference between government receipts and spending, ignoring intra-governmental transfers. However, there is certain spending (supplemental appropriations) that add to the debt but are excluded from the deficit. The deficit is presented on a cash rather than an accruals basis, although the accrual basis may provide more information on the longer-term implications of the government's annual operations.[2]

http://www.gao.gov/special.pubs/longterm/deficit/

Another government agency you can argue with.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:00:46 PM)

So what exactly is the GAO saying that I should be "arguing with"?

(You might want to look up the site and compare it to your wikipedia quote.)




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:07:21 PM)

Yep, wiki referenced the GAO site. Not sure what your problem is with that.

Take a look at 2000 figures on the chart. Both cash and accruals are positive.

Sorry, its 1 am here.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:16:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Take a look at 2000 figures on the chart. Both cash and accruals are positive.


They're apparently using the same accounting that the CBO used.

The US Treasury numbers show a deficit for those years.




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:24:18 PM)

The GAO is the congressional watch dog, an independent agency. You believe the Treasury. I believe the GAO.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:29:03 PM)

And GAO/CBO being wrong is why I have a bit less trust in them than you.

It's the same kind of shady accounting that had people screaming at Bush for his wars being "off budget".




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 10:39:53 PM)

But seriously, I don't understand how people can be okay with this...it's been happening for quite some time now. The Government has been literally borrowing money from Social Security (and other trust funds; SS isn't the only one), recording it as revenue and spending it, and therefore posting deficits that are less than they really are.

It's not unique to Clinton, but if you buy into his "surplus" fallacy, then you're buying into those shady accounting practices, and that seems odd to me coming from a lot of the same people lambasting Bush over his off budget spending.




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 11:06:36 PM)

Im too tired to look at the moment, but I do recall that surpluses have to be spent. Dont recall how. Either you can find it or you can wait for me to look again tomorrow.




Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 11:49:04 PM)

Well if there really was a surplus, one would think there was plenty of existing debt to spend it on.
Yet the National Debt still went up every year he was president.




tazzygirl -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/14/2011 11:57:21 PM)

washingtonpost.com: Good morning, Rep. Portman, and welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about what you expect to happen after Congress returns from recess? President Clinton has both threatened to veto the GOP tax plan and publicly said he hopes for further negotiation and resolution.

Rep. Rob Portman: It depends on the president's willingness to consider tax relief as part of the $3 trillion projected surplus. I believe that once the American people understand the alternatives better, it's likely that there will be pressure for substantial tax relief, and that negotiations will take place. I certainly hope we can come up with a reasonable compromise.

Tampa, Fla.: Why is immediate tax relief so important when debt reduction will help the current economy and current and future generations? Why couldn't tax relief occur once we are sure the debt is taken care of?

Rep. Rob Portman: We should both reduce the debt and allow people to keep some of their own hard-earned money. With a $3 trillion projected surplus, we can and should do both. Under the plan Congress passed, $2.2 trillion of the $3.6 trillion public debt would be eliminated. This would result in our debt being relatively low as a percentage of our economy, and that's good for everybody.

The president's plan reduces less debt, and increases government spending more instead of tax relief.

It should be noted that the biggest part of the Republican tax relief plan (the across-the-board tax relief) is subject to a "debt trigger," meaning that it only goes into effect if we reach the debt-reduction targets in the plan.

Oxford, Ohio: The president says he wants universal savings accounts as the main portion of his tax relief package. What are they? Does the president still want to invest Social Security money in the stock market?

Rep. Rob Portman: First, USA accounts are retirement savings accounts that the government would fund. My biggest concern about the USA accounts is the fact that the government would be taking the place of private funds that are now used to prepare for retirement, primarily through employer based pension plans. A better alternative – much more cost-effective for the taxpayer – is to allow every American to save more tax-free for their own retirement, rather than creating another government entitlement program. One of the best things about the Republican tax bill is the pension expansion provisions, which allow everyone to save more for their own retirement through 401Ks, IRAs and other pension plans. This seems to be a more sensible way to achieve the president's goals.

With regard to the president's plan to invest Social Security Trust Fund surpluses in the stock market, this is part of the president's plan that he talked about in the State of the Union address. His idea is to have the federal government make these investments, which would result in the federal government being the single largest investor in our economy. This plan hasn't been particularly popular among Republicans or Democrats. My own view is that achieving the much higher rate of return in the private markets is a good idea, but the investments must be directed by individuals, not the government. And there must be a safety net for everybody so that no one's Social Security benefits would be reduced. There are plans like that out there, the best known being the so-called Archer-Shaw plan.

El Dorado, Kan.: Congressman Portman:

During the Reagan administration a $1.6 trillion dollar tax cut was floated by the president. In response, House Speaker Tip O'Neal offered what he and fellow Democrats felt was a more "responsible" $1.3 trillion package. How, rhetorically, are you making Americans realize that the current tax cut proposal is peanuts and that the Democrats stand in the way of even greater economic growth?

Rep. Rob Portman: You raise an interesting question about how this tax bill would compare to others that have been proposed. I would make the simple point that in the past 35 years, all tax relief proposals have come out of further deficit spending, not surplus. In other words, what distinguishes this tax relief proposal from all others in the past few decades is that it responsibly only assumes there should be tax relief when there is an "on budget" surplus in the federal budget. We only need to look back two years to 1997, when a net tax cut of roughly $100 billion over five years – all of which came out of more deficit pending, not surplus, was supported by not only the vast majority of Republicans and signed into law by President Clinton, but was also supported by about 160 Democrats in the House. Many of those same Democrats have argued against tax relief, even though we now have non-partisan projections of a real surplus of taxpayer funds.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/talk/zforum/politics081299.htm

Something for you to chew on tonight. [;)]





Raiikun -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/15/2011 12:40:39 AM)

"So the table itself, according to the figures issued yesterday, showed the Federal Government ran a surplus. Absolutely false. This reporter ought to do his work. This crowd never has asked for or kept up with or checked the facts. Eric Planin--all he has to do is not spread rumors or get into the political message. Both Democrats and Republicans are all running this year and next and saying surplus, surplus. Look what we have done. It is false. The actual figures show that from the beginning of the fiscal year until now we had to borrow $127,800,000,000."

- Democratic Senator Ernest Hollings, October 28, 1999




DomYngBlk -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/15/2011 8:05:38 AM)

You are a complete idiot




willbeurdaddy -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/15/2011 8:05:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Well one quibble with the charts...it showing a surplus in the Clintion years, when in fact, the US's debt increased those same years. (Source, the US Treasury website).


Well ... least you used the right term "quibble" is about all you can do with the mighty IMPRESSIVE downward trend the treasury flected CLEAR ACROSS the Clinton Presidency.
Agreed, you doth quibble

Now go into the same app and plug in January 20 2001 and January 20 2009 it would be nice to see the comparisons if quibbling is your sport... Sport.




And I already identified the GOP sources for that downward trajectory...Spurt.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/15/2011 8:07:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The budget is year to year. When you take in more than you spend out.. its a good thing. [:D]


Correct. Too bad it didnt happen in the years you are still in denial about.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? (9/15/2011 8:09:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What unrelated bills? Every bill is related to the running of the government.


Much of the government's bills aren't related to Social Security.

Those are funds the government is borrowing that *still has to be paid back*.

Which is why, according to the Treasury, the Nation's debt has gone up every year for a long time, including all of the Clinton years. No amount of dancing can change that.



I suggested you give it up 3 pages ago. TG always turns it into these kind of semantic games when she's proven wrong. If the thread doesnt die it will turn into strawmen.




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