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RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 8:10:57 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A tid bit of information I knew was out there and just found...



The US gov owes roughly $4.5 trillion (2009) (37.5% of the national debt) to its own citizens, whether it be retirees, federal employee benefits and other funds. The remaining is owed to the market. The US Gov can choose to default on its obligations to its own employees and citizens in the most dire of circumstances. It is also important to note that the US defaulting on IGH obligations would not have a per se effect on the treasury bills, notes, bond markets as IGH are nonmarketable. I can see the US defaulting on IGH obligations before it ever defaults on its marketable securities.

Now, wouldnt it make more sense to pay down public debt?


That little tidbit ignores reality. Default on IGH and the Treasury bond market collapses.

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RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 9:05:29 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Do you think blowing a tril in Iraq had any affect on our finances?


Wait a sec Buster... anybody who blew that many Iraqis would have a REALLY BAD case pf chapped lips. This guy's avatar picture implies nothing of the kind. You're starting to sound a bit like Pa


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RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 9:55:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		~FR

Most people usually accept the notion that money you owe yourself isn't net debt on a consolidated basis. This is mathematics. When a husband borrows money from his wife, the family as whole doesn't increase its debt. When one department of a company borrows money from another, the company as a whole doesn't just increase its debt either.

First of all, any robust metric of the U.S. government's debt should not rise or fall just because the government chooses to sub-divide itself on paper into more or fewer units. For example, if the U.S. government decided tomorrow that the Social Security Trust Fund were no longer its own entity, and that it should simply be merged into the greater Federal government, on paper, then suddenly a large intragovernmental holding would disappear... and by the logic of those who want to include intragovernmental holdings as net debt, the U.S. government's debt would suddenly fall dramatically. Just due to a change on the government's organizational chart.

http://www.businessinsider.com/is-money-owed-to-social-security-part-of-the-debt-2010-6#ixzz1Y2bV6xj2

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 10:02:10 AM   
tazzygirl


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Yep, the Social Security Trust Fund is required to own US Treasuries and as previously pointed out, the fund owns 57% of the non-marketable Treasury inventory. As with the CSRDF, if US Treasuries fail (default), so too will the Social Security Trust Fund. Also, as with civilian Federal employees and their retirement funds held by the CSRDF, a 1960 Supreme Court ruling established that contributors to Social Security do not have a right or an entitlement to receive benefits from the Social Security Trust Fund. The government can cut either off whenever it wants. The debt debate should be bringing the phony pension accounting to light in both Social Security and the CSRDF. Sadly, both now depend on ever expanding debt.

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/barry-ferguson/2011/07/25/us-debt-default-will-punish-pensions

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 12:27:51 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Intragovernmental debt is every bit as real as the public debt. It's not "a wash" simply because the government owes the money to "itself."

Social Security is legally required to use all its surpluses to buy U.S. Government securities. From Social Security's standpoint, it has a multi-trillion dollar reserve in the form of U.S. Government securities. When the Social Security system starts to falter due to insufficient contributions to pay for all the benefits of retiring baby-boomers, it will start cashing those securities and will expect the U.S. Government to pay it back, with interest. The problem is, the government doesn't have the money. The money has already been spent

The Federal Government cannot just wave a magic wand and somehow "write off" the intragovernmental debt. Essentially, citizens invested money in Social Security and Social Security invested that money in the Federal Government. Now Social Security effectively owes you money (in the form of future retirement benefits) and won't be able to pay you that money if the Federal Government just cancels the intragovernmental debt. The only way the Federal Government can "write off" intragovernmental debt is if it simultaneously eliminates the Social Security system. And Social Security will start running out of money if the Federal Government doesn't honor those intragovernmental holdings as real debt.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 9/15/2011 12:28:11 PM >

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RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 12:33:53 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You are a complete idiot


Have anything of substance to say or do the facts scare you off into resorting to ad homs? =)

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 12:39:55 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What unrelated bills? Every bill is related to the running of the government.


Much of the government's bills aren't related to Social Security.

Those are funds the government is borrowing that *still has to be paid back*.

Which is why, according to the Treasury, the Nation's debt has gone up every year for a long time, including all of the Clinton years. No amount of dancing can change that.



I suggested you give it up 3 pages ago. TG always turns it into these kind of semantic games when she's proven wrong. If the thread doesnt die it will turn into strawmen.


You're probably right hehe...if that happens though, I do get kind of amused at watching effort put into a logical fallacy, to just get beaten by simply pointing out the fallacy.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 1:07:37 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Tragic, but we all knew how this would end when he started watching Newshour. That shit'd fuck anybody up...


I saw the same thing happen with a couple of deadheads playing spacequest 3 in a basement in upstate ny a long time ago... less money was used up though... I think the weed mighta been free




What the hell is an Aluminum Mallard?

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:21:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

You're probably right hehe...if that happens though, I do get kind of amused at watching effort put into a logical fallacy, to just get beaten by simply pointing out the fallacy.


Actually the debt can be washed out by removing the agency.

If they decide to end Social Security, the rest falls into the general coffers, along with the debt.

As the example shows... borrow from your wife, the household debt doesnt increase.

Now, no matter how hard you may desire to make that a fallacy... its simple truth.. and math.

Especially from someone who cant figure out how much he has paid into SS and believes he is also owed the employers share.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/15/2011 2:24:13 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:25:20 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Actually the debt can be washed out by removing the agency.



Kinda like I already said up above. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Me

The only way the Federal Government can "write off" intragovernmental debt is if it simultaneously eliminates the Social Security system.




quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Especially from someone who cant figure out how much he has paid into SS and believes he is also owed the employers share.



Strawman and Ad Hominem. Wilbur was right it seems, here they come. I asked your thoughts on what the employer contributes on the employee's behalf, as I hadn't decided either way how that should be treated in a hypothetical situation.


< Message edited by Raiikun -- 9/15/2011 2:27:51 PM >

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RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:30:34 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What the hell is an Aluminum Mallard?

Howard the Duck's superhero identity (like the man of steel)...

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:31:22 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


As the example shows... borrow from your wife, the household debt doesnt increase.



Ya might wanna take that up with the Government too then, as they do consider that part of the debt.



It is amusing to me though, that the chart admits it's part of the debt, with a quote by Obama still talking about the mystical "surplus" that the same debt erased.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 9/15/2011 2:34:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:32:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Strawman and Ad Hominem. Wilbur was right it seems, here they come. I asked your thoughts on what the employer contributes on the employee's behalf, as I hadn't decided either way how that should be treated in a hypothetical situation.


Sweetcheeks... thats neither. Thats me being a bitch. Deal with it. When I take the time to debate with someone and they put me down, fuck em.

That was no hypothetical situation, but you are definitely a royal ass.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:36:03 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Sweetcheeks... thats neither. Thats me being a bitch. Deal with it. When I take the time to debate with someone and they put me down, fuck em.


Where did I put you down? And you "being a bitch" isn't mutually exclusive to the fact that you made both an Ad Hominem and a Strawman.

quote:



That was no hypothetical situation, but you are definitely a royal ass.



How much someone would have if the Government cut them a check for all SS contributions wasn't a "hypothetical situation?"

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:37:56 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You cant read what you write?

In that case, you are more of an idiot than I thought.

You have wasted enough of my time.

Maybe someone else will draw you a map and explain it to you.

As for me, you are history.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 2:39:28 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You cant read what you write?



Nice deflection. I didn't put you down at all, but since you made the assertion that I did, it should be easy for you to show it.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 4:59:03 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

You cant read what you write?

In that case, you are more of an idiot than I thought.

You have wasted enough of my time.

Maybe someone else will draw you a map and explain it to you.

As for me, you are history.


Lemme guess... WillBe was vacationing in like Prague or some other place he can get away with his well documented and bizarre proclivities. This dude pops up and WillBe adopts him. Mentors the guy for a while and turns him loose on us. How close am I?



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Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 5:13:38 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

How close am I?



Nowhere near. Still doesn't point to how I "put her down" according to her assertion. :)

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 5:39:57 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Thats you being you every time you are proven wrong

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats me being a bitch.





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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: How the Deficit Got This Big???? - 9/15/2011 5:40:00 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

You cant read what you write?

In that case, you are more of an idiot than I thought.

You have wasted enough of my time.

Maybe someone else will draw you a map and explain it to you.

As for me, you are history.


Lemme guess... WillBe was vacationing in like Prague or some other place he can get away with his well documented and bizarre proclivities. This dude pops up and WillBe adopts him. Mentors the guy for a while and turns him loose on us. How close am I?




About as close as Rule is to being a genius. I seem to remember Raiikun being around a few months ago, but when he independently popped up with the same point Ive proved several times I thought he deserved a warning. Obviously a prescient one, because the same bullshit responses are being recylced. Spending more than your income is a deficit, whether or not you cover the deficit by borrowing from Visa (China) or your IRA (Social Security Trust Fund). Any attempt to claim otherwise is simply ignorant.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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