RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid

RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 7:51:54 AM)
Olmert's Peace plan looks like the best deal possible. That he thinks giving up any parts of Jerusalem is politically viable in Israel surprises me but he knows the situation better than I do. Land swaps could be made across the southern part of Israel which would connect Gaza and the West Bank and make both states contiguous.

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 7:57:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Being in the military doesn't make you immune to fear. Being in the military does not make you immune from prosecution for murder. The whole purpose of a military is to have an armed and disciplined force. Without discipline you have an armed mob. I never said it did. Not once, nowhere, nor implied it. Your implication is quite clear from your statement "being in the military doesn't make you imune to fear." Do you have another point you'd like to address out of context? The point I was making is quite obvious. Fear or no fear discipline is what seperates the military from a mob. That an individual was shot 5 times in the back is prima facia evidence of murder. Yes I have noted your position on murder and you and I have no disagreement there.

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 9:01:57 AM)
Sam, I don't think it's a moral high ground issue. We're talking less than 10 years that the Arab world has even considered the idea of recognizing Israel as a state, and even then 20 of 22 from the Arab League still don't. If it were simply an issue of establishing borders with Palestine, the question would be much easier to resolve. But it's not. Israel shares borders with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, Jordan, and the proposed Palestine. Each of these countries in existence at the time of the Six Day War, massed troops and armor along borders with the intent of invading. I mean hell, it's fairly common for travelers to Israel to ask them NOT to stamp their passports so they can still get into some of the Arab countries. I think it more of a survival issue, not one of moral ground. Negotiating with Palestine is about the same as negotiating with the rest of the Arab League. Honestly I don't think there is an answer that doesn't include peacekeepers somewhere, in force, for a very long time.

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 9:04:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Olmert's Peace plan looks like the best deal possible. That he thinks giving up any parts of Jerusalem is politically viable in Israel surprises me but he knows the situation better than I do. Land swaps could be made across the southern part of Israel which would connect Gaza and the West Bank and make both states contiguous. Yeah I thought about that too, but don't know the geography well enough to know if it's workable in terms of arable land without someone crying foul and we ending up right back where we started. It makes sense though to connect the two, to give Israel a better border. I'll have to look at his Peace plan.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 9:08:33 AM)
FR The Palestinians have two paths after this week. They can dig in their heels, refuse to disavow Hamas, and escalate both the terrorism and the rhetoric, or they can actually come to the bargaining table. Its a bet Id love to lose, but my money is on the former.

DomKen -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 9:20:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Olmert's Peace plan looks like the best deal possible. That he thinks giving up any parts of Jerusalem is politically viable in Israel surprises me but he knows the situation better than I do. Land swaps could be made across the southern part of Israel which would connect Gaza and the West Bank and make both states contiguous. Yeah I thought about that too, but don't know the geography well enough to know if it's workable in terms of arable land without someone crying foul and we ending up right back where we started. It makes sense though to connect the two, to give Israel a better border. I'll have to look at his Peace plan. Most of the southern part of Israel is the Negev Desert which is not arable land but it is sparsely populated by Jews (its mostly bedouin) and is poised to become a major site for solar power facilities. A future Palestine incorporating the Negev could potentially sell power to Israel, Egypt and Jordan.

samboct -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 9:42:55 AM)
ST Times have changed since '67. It's no longer practical to mass armor along a border without it being observed- hell, google maps may allow all of us to see it for ourselves. If I try to be positive- is it possible that if there is a Palestine in existence, that the rest of the Arab league would back down around Israel? I'm not saying it's likely- but from my perspective, it does seem possible- and that's a possibility worth exploring. Wilbur- I must admit, I agree with you on this one... DK- Have you been tracking the changes in the concentrated PV industry? They've had poles with panels on top that have gone from 35kW in 2006 to 66 kW today- same size panel. High DNI and no water is tailor made for these installations- that sounds like the Negev. Well, you'll have to bring in some water for cleaning 4 times a year... Economics can quickly bury the hatchet- that's also what helped in Ireland. Imagine a Palestinian homeland that actually had resources? Sam

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 10:06:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Being in the military doesn't make you immune to fear. Being in the military does not make you immune from prosecution for murder. The whole purpose of a military is to have an armed and disciplined force. Without discipline you have an armed mob. I never said it did. Not once, nowhere, nor implied it. Your implication is quite clear from your statement "being in the military doesn't make you imune to fear." Do you have another point you'd like to address out of context? The point I was making is quite obvious. Fear or no fear discipline is what seperates the military from a mob. That an individual was shot 5 times in the back is prima facia evidence of murder. Yes I have noted your position on murder and you and I have no disagreement there. My implication was simple, and tied to the rest of the post. It's easy to sit back and look at actions undertaken afterwards and deem them one thing or another. It's not quite so easy in the midst. There are actions that can be clearly and undeniably attributed as murder, as gross exercise of power, as abuse of either power or persons. Other actions however, don't fit such precise language. Take your comment out of context of the flotilla raid for a second, as in "That an individual was shot 5 times in the back is prima facia evidence of murder.' I can't agree with you on that statement. Five times can equal one burst from an automatic weapon. The act of shooting someone in the back isn't necessarily murder. It depends on the circumstances. It's not feasible in the middle of fighting room to room to ask someone to turn around first. Nor is it feasible to wait for them to turn around when you don't know if the room behind you is secure. Nor is it even reasonable in the middle of a firefight, where there may be no light, nothing but the flashes of gunfire, to expect someone to take time to discern if the silhouette in front of them is facing them or not. Nor is it reasonable to judge it an act of murder when the person may have been engaged in firing at the time, may have been engaged in an assault on your team, may be part of an enemy team against which you are engaged. I mean hell, what seems obvious isn't always obvious at the time. My comment related to not knowing how someone would respond had nothing to do with rendering them immune to prosecution. It had a lot to do with the armchair quarterbacking that always occurs afterwards from people who state so easily, I would have done this or that. Too, orders have a lot to do with how and what people do. I have been in situations where if you did not respond in the manner I instructed, my standing orders were to terminate. Not ask questions, not consult, not call for help, not anything. Those things occurred afterward. I very nearly shot my own executive officer in such a situation. Afterward, when he called me to his quarters, I expected to have my ass reamed. Instead he commended me. Go figure. To put it back in the context of this raid, yes, there are wounds that appear to be executions and as such, should be fully investigated.

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 10:45:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct ST Times have changed since '67. It's no longer practical to mass armor along a border without it being observed- hell, google maps may allow all of us to see it for ourselves. If I try to be positive- is it possible that if there is a Palestine in existence, that the rest of the Arab league would back down around Israel? I'm not saying it's likely- but from my perspective, it does seem possible- and that's a possibility worth exploring. Wilbur- I must admit, I agree with you on this one... DK- Have you been tracking the changes in the concentrated PV industry? They've had poles with panels on top that have gone from 35kW in 2006 to 66 kW today- same size panel. High DNI and no water is tailor made for these installations- that sounds like the Negev. Well, you'll have to bring in some water for cleaning 4 times a year... Economics can quickly bury the hatchet- that's also what helped in Ireland. Imagine a Palestinian homeland that actually had resources? Sam I like the idea of land swaps. Somehow Israel needs a border that doesn't whack the country in half. I like the idea of sweetening the pot by agreeing to assist in development. I like the idea of a contiguous Palestinian state, not one split in half by Israel. The question is, are any of them going to like it?

samboct -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 11:10:27 AM)
I've got $20 at 2:1 odds that the Palestinians will walk away from such a deal....but hey, maybe we'll all get pleasantly surprised. These are humans after all, and as such , are often unpredictable. Sam

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 11:17:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct I've got $20 at 2:1 odds that the Palestinians will walk away from such a deal....but hey, maybe we'll all get pleasantly surprised. These are humans after all, and as such , are often unpredictable. Sam History will probably recount that you and Wilbur were the only two winners this week. Lol.

DomKen -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 11:23:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct DK- Have you been tracking the changes in the concentrated PV industry? They've had poles with panels on top that have gone from 35kW in 2006 to 66 kW today- same size panel. High DNI and no water is tailor made for these installations- that sounds like the Negev. Well, you'll have to bring in some water for cleaning 4 times a year... Economics can quickly bury the hatchet- that's also what helped in Ireland. Imagine a Palestinian homeland that actually had resources? Sam Just the press releases mostly. I think we're rapidly approaching a point where PV farms on otherwise useless land may supply substantial amounts of power. The problem with a land swap giving the PA the Negev is I doubt Israel's present government would give the PA the Egyptin border, In theri position I doubt I would either. Although if Hamas could be dealt with I think it is a workable plan.

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/22/2011 8:26:38 PM)
quote: My implication was simple, and tied to the rest of the post. It's easy to sit back and look at actions undertaken afterwards and deem them one thing or another. It's not quite so easy in the midst. There are actions that can be clearly and undeniably attributed as murder, as gross exercise of power, as abuse of either power or persons. Other actions however, don't fit such precise language. Take your comment out of context of the flotilla raid for a second, as in "That an individual was shot 5 times in the back is prima facia evidence of murder.' I can't agree with you on that statement. Five times can equal one burst from an automatic weapon. The act of shooting someone in the back isn't necessarily murder. It depends on the circumstances. It's not feasible in the middle of fighting room to room to ask someone to turn around first. Nor is it feasible to wait for them to turn around when you don't know if the room behind you is secure. Nor is it even reasonable in the middle of a firefight, where there may be no light, nothing but the flashes of gunfire, to expect someone to take time to discern if the silhouette in front of them is facing them or not. Nor is it reasonable to judge it an act of murder when the person may have been engaged in firing at the time, may have been engaged in an assault on your team, may be part of an enemy team against which you are engaged. I mean hell, what seems obvious isn't always obvious at the time. My comment related to not knowing how someone would respond had nothing to do with rendering them immune to prosecution. It had a lot to do with the armchair quarterbacking that always occurs afterwards from people who state so easily, I would have done this or that. Too, orders have a lot to do with how and what people do. I have been in situations where if you did not respond in the manner I instructed, my standing orders were to terminate. Not ask questions, not consult, not call for help, not anything. Those things occurred afterward. I very nearly shot my own executive officer in such a situation. Afterward, when he called me to his quarters, I expected to have my ass reamed. Instead he commended me. Go figure. Clearly your experiences in firefitghts is dramatically different than mine. To put it back in the context of this raid, yes, there are wounds that appear to be executions and as such, should be fully investigated.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/23/2011 2:55:03 AM)
quote: tweakabelle "That an individual was shot 5 times in the back is prima facia evidence of murder.' quote: StrangerThan To put it back in the context of this raid, yes, there are wounds that appear to be executions and as such, should be fully investigated. ST Prima facie as I understand it, and meant it, means that "there is a case to answer". It doesn't assert categorical guilt. Your closing statement seems to say much the same thing using a different formula. I also agree it's possible details may emerge that cause us to view the matter in a completely different light. (It's highly improbable that these would include DK's pirate fantasies.) An independent investigation of the facts by a neutral international expert team is needed to bring those details to light, to assemble and test the evidence thoroughly and to recommend/make criminal charges if any are appropriate. My understanding is that the ship is registered in Turkey and therefore Turkish law applies. It might be preferable have any cases arising from this matter heard in an international venue (such as that set up to try the Lockerbie bomber) to ensure the legal rights of all parties are respected fully and the judicial process is fair and seen to be fair. For mine the highest priority is that justice is done and seen to be done. I hope you would agree that something along these lines is an appropriate way to proceed from here. If you are, I'm happy to leave this particular incident at that.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/23/2011 3:31:24 AM)
quote: samboct I'll throw a bit of a monkey wrench in here. I'm not sure we should dismiss the one state solution so cavalierly. OK, Jews and Muslims have had trouble living together- the history of Jewish communities in Muslim states illustrates that clearly. But then, the Palestinians are still hanging around Israel, even with it's apartheid system. Good point. I quite agree that this option is far from an irrelevance. It is a fact that for long periods, different communities in the region have been able to live together in peace and harmony under different regimes. There have been periods of discord of course and only a fool would ignore those. My concern is that the continuing growth of the West Bank colonies will have the effect of rendering the two-State option unworkable. A Palestinian state comprised of Bantustan-like connected but scattered regions will not work and will only be a basis for continuing friction and tension. A Palestinian State certain to be a failed State, with all the attendant dangers that implies, is in no one's interests I have no objection to those colonies legally acquired remaining with their current owners in any Palestinian State. In fact, this could be a highly desirable development in many ways, for all concerned. I remain to be convinced that the colonists themselves would be party to any arrangement that makes them subject to majority Palestinian rule in an independent Palestinian State. Even though this a less than perfect outcome from my perspective, it is one that is fast becoming the only workable outcome. I hope that colonial expansion has not yet reached the point where it is the only viable outcome left. For those whose primary goal is Israel as a Jewish State, this outcome will eventually spell the end of the Zionist dream. But increasingly, commentators and analysts are coming to the conclusion that it the sole remaining viable outcome. If the two-state option is your preferred option, its immediate implementation is a priority of the upmost urgency.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/23/2011 4:30:13 AM)
quote: BTW you keep making a big deal out of the nationality of the dead man. You need to examine your own prejudices and figure out why you think that fact makes any difference in this matter. There's a very straightforward reason for this DK. The US Govt has not made a single noise. not even a pipsqueak about the death of one its citizens at the hands of the IDF under disputed circumstances. It's hard to imagine this would be the case with most other Govts in the world. Compare Turkey's defence of its citizens with the US Govt's. The precedent for this was set long ago in the USS Liberty incident. The Rachel Corrie incident, where an IDF bull dozer ran over and killed another US citizen maintained the standard. Impotence and silence (complicity?) at the alleged murders of US citizens is yet another cost the US pays for its one sided one way alliance with Israel. My emphasising the nationality of the dead person is to draw attention to this. Of course, as you seem to operate under the illusion that Israel is incapable of doing wrong, this wouldn't occur to you. Or, perhaps you wish to deliberately deflect people's attention from your Govt's dereliction of its obligations to US citizens in this matter. Either way, like all the other racists slurs you throw at me, so lacking in substance that the prejudice can only exist in your own head. Making precisely the same grunts and errors as Willbur ought to be enough, on its own, to alert you that there's something seriously wrong with your position. I hope you learn to deal with it.

DomKen -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/23/2011 8:55:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: BTW you keep making a big deal out of the nationality of the dead man. You need to examine your own prejudices and figure out why you think that fact makes any difference in this matter. There's a very straightforward reason for this DK. The US Govt has not made a single noise. not even a pipsqueak about the death of one its citizens at the hands of the IDF under disputed circumstances. It's hard to imagine this would be the case with most other Govts in the world. Compare Turkey's defence of its citizens with the US Govt's. The precedent for this was set long ago in the USS Liberty incident. The Rachel Corrie incident, where an IDF bull dozer ran over and killed another US citizen maintained the standard. Impotence and silence (complicity?) at the alleged murders of US citizens is yet another cost the US pays for its one sided one way alliance with Israel. My emphasising the nationality of the dead person is to draw attention to this. Of course, as you seem to operate under the illusion that Israel is incapable of doing wrong, this wouldn't occur to you. Or, perhaps you wish to deliberately deflect people's attention from your Govt's dereliction of its obligations to US citizens in this matter. Either way, like all the other racists slurs you throw at me, so lacking in substance that the prejudice can only exist in your own head. Making precisely the same grunts and errors as Willbur ought to be enough, on its own, to alert you that there's something seriously wrong with your position. I hope you learn to deal with it. I've got a hint for you, there are 300+ million of us. Our government doesn't get all bent out of shape when a citizen gets killed while doing something dangerous like engaging in piracy.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/23/2011 8:25:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: BTW you keep making a big deal out of the nationality of the dead man. You need to examine your own prejudices and figure out why you think that fact makes any difference in this matter. There's a very straightforward reason for this DK. The US Govt has not made a single noise. not even a pipsqueak about the death of one its citizens at the hands of the IDF under disputed circumstances. It's hard to imagine this would be the case with most other Govts in the world. Compare Turkey's defence of its citizens with the US Govt's. The precedent for this was set long ago in the USS Liberty incident. The Rachel Corrie incident, where an IDF bull dozer ran over and killed another US citizen maintained the standard. Impotence and silence (complicity?) at the alleged murders of US citizens is yet another cost the US pays for its one sided one way alliance with Israel. My emphasising the nationality of the dead person is to draw attention to this. Of course, as you seem to operate under the illusion that Israel is incapable of doing wrong, this wouldn't occur to you. Or, perhaps you wish to deliberately deflect people's attention from your Govt's dereliction of its obligations to US citizens in this matter. Either way, like all the other racists slurs you throw at me, so lacking in substance that the prejudice can only exist in your own head. Making precisely the same grunts and errors as Willbur ought to be enough, on its own, to alert you that there's something seriously wrong with your position. I hope you learn to deal with it. I've got a hint for you, there are 300+ million of us. Our government doesn't get all bent out of shape when a citizen gets killed while doing something dangerous like engaging in piracy. \ Well pardon my presumption. I had assumed that you would have an objection to foreigners knocking off Americans. I imagine most Americans would object to that. Yet you sound remarkably blasé about the IDF killing Americans. Do clarify for us, is this privilege, being permitted to kill Americans with impunity, extended to the entire world or is it an exclusively Israeli one? I'd like to be able to exclude the possibility of a whiff of racism happening here.

samboct -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/24/2011 5:55:51 AM)
Hi Tweak Umm, recall that the US still has the death penalty- and Texas is certainly proud of it! Although our laws state that every man is innocent until proven guilty, in practice, the assumption is that if someone is arrested, they must have been doing something wrong. Hence, if someone is killed on a ship running guns, that makes them a gun runner and hence, not worthy about getting upset over- they took their chances and lost. Public opinion is very different than the theory of the legal system, although in practice, our legal system is much closer to public opinion. Does that help explain it? Sam

DomKen -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/24/2011 6:01:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Well pardon my presumption. I had assumed that you would have an objection to foreigners knocking off Americans. I imagine most Americans would object to that. Yet you sound remarkably blasé about the IDF killing Americans. Do clarify for us, is this privilege, being permitted to kill Americans with impunity, extended to the entire world or is it an exclusively Israeli one? I'd like to be able to exclude the possibility of a whiff of racism happening here. I don't object to Americans getting killed doing dangerous things. Neither does the government. It's called personal responsibility. This is actually very lucky for the Palestinians since their various murder bombings in Israel have killed a lot more than 2 American citizens.

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