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RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/21/2011 7:53:02 PM   
submaleuk12


Posts: 92
Joined: 9/4/2011
Status: offline 		I've given links

quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The author of the article does not say BDSM causes MS/fibro, he states:

quote:

Many submissives within this process may find that they are diagnosed as having some form of epilepsy, restless legs syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fiber Myalgia as well as some unidentifiable mental psychosis.
i.e., that certain stress response that my occur in BDSM can mimic symptoms of these diseases which may lead to a misdiagnosis - in the authors opinion.


I realize this is the author's opinion. But the author does not provide 1 piece of data to back up these statements. It is total pure conjecture on the part of the author.

Having lived and dealt with family members who have epilepsy and fibromyalgia (noting that the author horribly misspelled this). Knowing that before a neurologist declares epilepsy he/she likes to have an EEG showing the abnormal pattern. And knowing while there are many abnormal patterns that the brain can produce but a specific pattern occurs for Grand maul and a different pattern for petit mal seizure (actually there are 9 groups but Grand mal and petit mal encompass them). So for sub drop (or whatever the author calls it) to be misdiagnosed as epilepsy is really going out on the limb. I do not want to meet that doctor!

The article just screams gibberish in my opinion. The article is just an opinion and with bad spelling mistakes as well. If you researched something I would hope you would know how to spell the things you researched.


(in reply to mummyman321)
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RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/21/2011 8:04:49 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		So, if I write something up and post it to the internet, you will consider it gospel?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to submaleuk12)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 5:36:41 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The author of the article does not say BDSM causes MS/fibro, he states:

quote:

Many submissives within this process may find that they are diagnosed as having some form of epilepsy, restless legs syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fiber Myalgia as well as some unidentifiable mental psychosis.
i.e., that certain stress response that my occur in BDSM can mimic symptoms of these diseases which may lead to a misdiagnosis - in the authors opinion.


I realize this is the author's opinion. But the author does not provide 1 piece of data to back up these statements. It is total pure conjecture on the part of the author.

Having lived and dealt with family members who have epilepsy and fibromyalgia (noting that the author horribly misspelled this). Knowing that before a neurologist declares epilepsy he/she likes to have an EEG showing the abnormal pattern. And knowing while there are many abnormal patterns that the brain can produce but a specific pattern occurs for Grand maul and a different pattern for petit mal seizure (actually there are 9 groups but Grand mal and petit mal encompass them). So for sub drop (or whatever the author calls it) to be misdiagnosed as epilepsy is really going out on the limb. I do not want to meet that doctor!

The article just screams gibberish in my opinion. The article is just an opinion and with bad spelling mistakes as well. If you researched something I would hope you would know how to spell the things you researched.

Well, I'm not going defend it, not all doctors are great diagnosticians or insurance rates wouldn't be what they are, some are just drug pushers, and I think a misdiagnosis is conceivable, but I didn't get the sense that that was the main thrust of the article, rather an anecdote to illustrate the severity of the symptoms of stress, which is what he's talking about here, and anything that helps gets you through it helps get you through it, so I support that effort - little New Agey for me, but whatever works for ya, it's sex positive at least, they aren't always, and those Tantric Yoga fluid superstitions can fuck you up.

Anyway, I think the OP overstated the case by quite a bit, the author of the article itself doesn't attempt to "link" Fibro, MS, etc., with BDSM, he merely points out that what I guess you could call "chronic" sub drop has a potential for being misdiagnosed, as these other things, not that there is any link between them, he might have issues with the medical establishment, I dunno, but he doesn't seem to be wearing it on his sleeve anyway.

Hell, sex wears you out, what is it, serotonin or something? It's one of the natural systems in place to limit your indulgence, because otherwise you'd forget to eat or sleep!

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/22/2011 5:37:20 AM >

(in reply to mummyman321)
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RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 5:49:31 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

The most stressful thing was listening to the homesick chicks crying themselves to sleep - but then, I get off on receiving instructions, following orders, and the occasional tongue-lashing :)
Oh I saw some funny shit man, we had one guy, little Black guy, neat as a pin, by the numbers type, would sit bolt upright in his bunk, salute, and scream "YESSIR"!, poor fucker, they had his number even in his dreams.

We used to fight over who got night watch, just because of the shit people would say and do in their sleep.

That's why they do that though, they deliberately stress you, 'cause any issues you have come bubbling to the surface.

And sex is a great stress releaser, it releases a whole host of anti-stress hormones, I wouldn't say it's the sex,  although anal can affect the vagus nerve, make you a little too relaxed if you know what I mean, not that I've ever seen that as a problem, but I doubt it's the sex, it's probably the whole lifestyle business, a lot of people do kink casually, the TPE thing really means rethinking everything you've been taught about being a good little Narcissistic consumer trying to fill the empty hole in your soul with consumer goods - what, happiness without meds? Inconceivable!

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 6:00:21 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hisfreedom

Okay, now that I've read most of the thread just another couple of cents to toss into the pile..

What might be stressful to one person may not be stressful to another. How we process stress has a lot to do with our life experiences and upbrining as well as our coping skills or lack thereof.

Sure all of those jobs mentioned are stressful, as is raising a family in this economy and so forth. But what about the agoraphobic who cannot leave the house, just the mere thought of stepping outside is STRESS, what about the person who has severe social phobia? Going to the store to buy a gallon of milk during peak shopping hours could be a major undertaking.

My point is stress is in the heart, body and mind of the person feeling it and dealing with it. As is what helps to destress them. When I play it is one of the best things I have ever found to de-stress. Its almost like meditation. While I am at work, the busier I am the happier I am (to most of my coworkers it would be stressful, to me the busiest day is my favorite and I stress when things are slower)

Just my point of view

~freedom

There ya go, I think think the stress release aspect of BDSM is one it's greatest utilities - the erotophobic, people who've had a number done on their heads by Calvinism or something, strike me as fucking stress machines, they can't stand the idea of anybody having a good time, and happy people don't typically go around hassling everybody over their personal choices, much less make it the reason for their existence.

But, like you say it's all relative, Gorean is whole philosophy of life to some people, one that doesn't leave a lot of room for individuality, and that can be stressful - it's hard to even say "BDSM", and be sure we're all talking about the same thing, because it ranges from casual kink to total identity submersion - the latter, I'm guessing, is going to involve a little more stress for some folks - excitement is a form of stress, your heart rate goes up, etc., even that can take it's toll on your energy levels over time.

(in reply to Hisfreedom)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 7:23:48 AM   
submaleuk12


Posts: 92
Joined: 9/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, if I write something up and post it to the internet, you will consider it gospel?



Your putting words in my mouth now,I never said anything is gospel, I used the word possible.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 7:26:35 AM   
submaleuk12


Posts: 92
Joined: 9/4/2011
Status: offline 		As someone who has tried bdsm and suffered from cfs I'd say there is a definite link, that doesn't mean there is in everyone but surely I'm not the only person I'm the whole world?

(in reply to submaleuk12)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 7:42:46 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Perhaps, but there's a good chance it's coincidental rather than correlative.

(in reply to submaleuk12)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 7:57:41 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		As  hardcybermaster points out anecdotally, there does seem to be a high incidence o people with "issues" of various kinds in BDSM, ranging from medical to psychological - thing is, vanilla's can be pretty obnoxious when it comes to people with any problems they don't have, including illness - there's a lot of narcissistic distancing from people, anybody who has dealt with schizophrenia or a developmental disabilities is aware of this, if there weren't some discrimination, we wouldn't need to make laws about it.

Seriously, when's the last time somebody told you "I have Cancer", and you went "wow, that's really hot"! Thing is, just because your'e ill or disabled doesn't mean you don't need love and affection, and physical... comfort - in fact you may need it more - social death is being outcast and denied normal human love and affection, and the stress form that alone can literally kill you, so if you already suffer from something else, any kind of social interaction is going to be therapeutic.

So, people suffering from a disability and people who engage in kink are both historically "outgroups", it's really only natural that they should have things in common and find acceptance among others who are discriminated against, and it's a group that offers a certian degree of physical "affection", even if that's defined a little more loosely.

Anyway, I've corresponded with parapalegics and severely disabled women who nevertheless, crave physical contact - and true to form, they are often surrounded by Vanillas who spare no effort to prevent that from happening because people like that aren't "supposed" to have sexual needs, or they fear someone will take advantage of that - which mostly happens in institutions, ironically enough.

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/22/2011 7:58:55 AM >

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 8:48:07 AM   
uncertainlyizzy


Posts: 42
Joined: 4/11/2011
Status: offline 		I agree that if there's a connection it's more of a seeking coping mechanisms and relief one than whatever bullshit that OP was spouting. For me, there's bad pain and there's good pain. The good pain distracts from the bad pain. Part of what makes it good pain is that it's gained while pleasing someone or it's under my control. It's not just my body rebelling and hurting me. You don't notice the hip pain or the back pain or whatever as much when your ass is black and blue and hurting quite nicely. You can ignore the stabbing pain in your shoulder when you're concentrating on the fingernails digging into your arm. It's "clean" and good and pure and overwhelms the bad pain. Additionally, there's a fuckton to be said about the powers of endorphins. Emotionally and physically. It makes sick people feel good just as well as it does healthy people. Not really much difference imo between a healthy person and a sick person chasing the endorphin high. 

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 4:55:29 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		I did not quite this time because I do not want to take up the whole page on a quote.

It is not that I disagree with everything in the article. I do believe in energy flow. I do believe in sub drop. There are many names for both those and I do not want to get hung up on names. What I really disagree with is trying to say that sub drop may manifest as physical symptoms and those symptoms then being mis-diagnosed as a disease such as epilepsey or fibromyalgia. Yes doctors make wrong diagnoses everyday. But things like epilepsy generally are not diagnosed without an EEG showing a specific abnormal brain wave form, blood tests and other tests. So if you are mis-diagnosed with epilepsy because of sub drop, god help the patients of that doctor.

Here is the thing. And this is my opinion. BDSM does provide and energy release but I would argue its no different than the vanilla ways of energy release. The pro football player gets the extreme adrenaline rush buidling up to a big game and during the big game. Then anywhere from a few hours to days later the drop occurs depending on the person. Same for the skydiving junkie, the extreme snowboard king, the motocrosser, the nature hiker, the deer hunter and the list goes on. BDSM does not provide a special energy release. Its your passion for a particular sport or activity that provides it. Its you doing what really turns you on ( and I do not necessarily mean sexually here). In one person that may be BDSM, in another that maybe motocross. The chemistry that happens in the brain and body is the same between the 2 people when they get into their passion and get into "the zone"(in vanilla terms).

_____________________________

Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/22/2011 6:40:29 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I would agree except that there are still plenty of people that discriminate against sexual, uh... athletes for purely social-political reasons, which does not generally apply to other sporting activities - and I'm not just talking about the general public, this might be close family and friends - until very recently, this was still considered the province of creepy old guys in raincoats lurking in backstreet porn shops - not saying that's what it was, but that's still the perception for a lot of people.

Things like SSC and RACK are about promoting safe play, but to a large extent they're as much about public relations and educating the public that we may be a bunch of perverts, but we're not a bunch of child molesters with children chained in the basement.

That perception still exists however, people still get busted, outed, fired, discriminated against or suffer public censure, for activities between consenting adults - Wiener ruined his career, and probably his wife's for nothing more than a few cock shots - in here, it's mostly, "so you got a cock, big whoop, anything else"? Out there, he has to resign from congress, and have it paraded and mocked nonstop for weeks to feed a "news" hungry public - that's gotta be stressful, peoples lives are ruined over this shit, the list is endless.

Sure, some people are lucky enough to live in more progressive communities, or at least afforded the relative anonymity of living in a large city, but a lot of others remain in the closet, because large segments of the public still seem to believe that they should have some say in what you do with your junk.

So no, sex and sports do not perfectly equate, there are at least a couple threads on this site at the moment asking the eternal question of whether having anal sex makes you gay, or some variation of same, and there is always a couple of threads in here that are some variationon the same topic - people form perceptions based on sexual practices, it's just one of those things you learn to live with or learn to hide.

And it's really that stress I'm talking about, not necessarily the physical stress, most people adapt to that without being diagnosed with anything much beyond maybe an anal fissure, or a shampoo bottle having to be fished out of their ass now and then.

(in reply to mummyman321)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/23/2011 2:30:51 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

As  hardcybermaster points out anecdotally, there does seem to be a high incidence o people with "issues" of various kinds in BDSM, ranging from medical to psychological - thing is, vanilla's can be pretty obnoxious when it comes to people with any problems they don't have, including illness - there's a lot of narcissistic distancing from people, anybody who has dealt with schizophrenia or a developmental disabilities is aware of this, if there weren't some discrimination, we wouldn't need to make laws about it.

Seriously, when's the last time somebody told you "I have Cancer", and you went "wow, that's really hot"! Thing is, just because your'e ill or disabled doesn't mean you don't need love and affection, and physical... comfort - in fact you may need it more - social death is being outcast and denied normal human love and affection, and the stress form that alone can literally kill you, so if you already suffer from something else, any kind of social interaction is going to be therapeutic.

So, people suffering from a disability and people who engage in kink are both historically "outgroups", it's really only natural that they should have things in common and find acceptance among others who are discriminated against, and it's a group that offers a certian degree of physical "affection", even if that's defined a little more loosely.

Anyway, I've corresponded with parapalegics and severely disabled women who nevertheless, crave physical contact - and true to form, they are often surrounded by Vanillas who spare no effort to prevent that from happening because people like that aren't "supposed" to have sexual needs, or they fear someone will take advantage of that - which mostly happens in institutions, ironically enough.

Sorry for not trimming the quote or possibly contributing to the hijack of the thread, but I happen to think this would make an excellent topic on it's own.  That being, do some folks come to the kink side of things hoping to gain a larger acceptance and is that what they really find when they get here?

Maybe I'll do it, Myself.  I'm bored.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/23/2011 8:00:59 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Some do, some don't, but overall I'd say it is a form of social networking where health issues are generally deemed less of an obstacle and various forms of "therapy" are even available.

I'm pretty sure flogging stimulates the nerves and increases blood flow to the epidermis, which is probably good for something - stress reduction is a much bigger factor than is often acknowledge: being ill is stressful - a schizophrenic not only has to deal with the schizophrenia, but the fact that everybody thinks they're pretty weird - which alone, can be pretty damn stressful.

I do recall a recent Austrialian study that indicated kinksters were better psychologically adjusted than their Vanilla counterparts - vanillas have the added stress of appearing "normal", when technically, there is no such thing - at best, there is maybe "statistically average", or "normative", with that usually being represented as some temporary compromise between fashion and utility - vanillas tend to be a little more gender obsessed for example, "gender as destiny" and all that, which places more limitations on self identification.

But sex and the complexities of the relationship between the sexes, and sexual/gender identity is pretty much universal and eternal among a set of diverse generalists, regardless of sex, we're all bipedal hominids with opposable thumbs and that affords us pretty wide range of potential adaptations, without bringing the junk into it at all.

There are gender obsessed factions within BDSM, but again, overall, very little in the way of outright discrimination, and plenty of room to argue the point, and overall, there are more ways, and more tolerance for sexual self expression, in a culture that otherwise tells us what's between our legs is who we are.

For some, it's a way of accepting that w/respect to the dominant consensus - i.e., you can find comfort and acceptance being a sex object in a culture that tells you that's what you are, and simultaneously discriminates against you for the same thing, for others, a way of rebelling against that and finding an alternative niche, very flexible, much more flexible than the dominant culture which tends to be pretty one way about everything.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/24/2011 12:23:33 AM   
April425


Posts: 30
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

are they high stress jobs? maybe but my idea of high stress jobs are the poor sods holding down 2 or 3 jobs at minimum wage just to put food on the table, I am seriously struggling to have sympathy for an advertising account exec or a stockbrocker.......Hello? real world calling
quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321

Well if STRESS is your angle then here are some high stress jobs. These are the top 10 stressful jobs (2011 Career Cast Ranking)

1 Commercial Pilot
2 Public Relations Officer
3 Corporate Executive (Senior)
4 Photojournalist
5 Newscaster
6 Advertising Account Executive
7 Architect
8 Stockbroker
9 Emergency Medical Technician (EMT)
10 Real Estate Agent


quote:

are they high stress jobs? maybe but my idea of high stress jobs are the poor sods holding down 2 or 3 jobs at minimum wage just to put food on the table, I am seriously struggling to have sympathy for an advertising account exec or a stockbrocker.......Hello? real world calling


This phenomenon is often called "first world problems" "white wine" etc. but from their experience their stress is real and is not diminished by pointing out that there are people struggling much lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. For example, for (advertising) Account Execs. even though I work in Creative (which also has high burn-out rate, it's just our roles are even more rare than an AE) & at times, we are at odds w/ the suits (the AEs) I recognize that they are handling multi-million dollar accounts. How would you like to wake every morning w/ the stress of knowing that you are expected to retain that client and make them happy. What if they leave the shop & it's your fault. Or of knowing that if you blow it, you'll have lost the company multi-millions in revenue.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Link between bdsm and chronic fatigue/fibromylagiA/ms - 9/24/2011 7:43:01 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah, and "but I wuz stressed"! ain't gonna get you much in the way of sympathy, nobody considers that a valid excuse in this country, they burn out executives like disposable lighters, and there's a new crop waiting to take their place, there's a distinct shelf life involved in certain professions, you're just feeding the bottomless maw of an inhuman machine.

In the grand scheme of things, however bad it is, it's still better than being born a Somolian war orphan, but knowing that intellectually doesn't always help much physiologically, the effects of your stress are still going to take their toll on your body and mind.

And that's going to be the way it is, until we as a society, reorder our priorities - as is, we sacrifice ourselves to the god of affluence, and no sacrifice is deemed too egregious - every culture has had it's fables about this, from Midas to the Sermon on the Mount and the Woes of the Pharisees, to the Goose that laid Golden Eggs - the harder you try to grab something the more it slips away, it's about balance.

So shit, play, relax, give some, take some, work the kinks out when you get a chance - we all end up in the same damn place, and it makes no difference whatsoever how many toys you've got - I intend to get there with a smile on my face and call that a win.

Yeah, I'm in a philosophical mood today, maybe I should start another thread on that.

(in reply to April425)
Profile   Post #: 56
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