RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far?

RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (Full Version)

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zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (9/25/2011 8:19:03 AM)
quote: Errrrr, trained chef, including 4 years as a Sous Chef and soup Nazi at a 4 star french restaurant. And yeah, I'm neat, like finicky neat so I clean (read organize) frequently. Ta-Da! Perfection made flesh=Kana :-) All this and a sadist too. Take me now, I'm yours <jumps into Kana's lap>

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (9/25/2011 8:28:41 AM)
i get skittish when talking to people if that person seems like he might not be trustworthy. ooor if he seems like he'd be the type to take advantage of something. my problem is that i have a difficult time saying no. and if i'm really responding to someone's dominance, all i really care about is pleasing that person. =p there are some people who take advantage of traits like that and send you down all sorts of horrible roads, and so, knowing that i have this tendency, i get skittish and guarded if i feel like a person wouldn't be a good fit, or safe for me to be around for this reason. for me, it's more about the person than the activities he wants to do. i used to think i had a lot of limits until my last relationship where i was so enthralled with him that nothing else mattered except pleasing him. (and it was a great relationship, i don't regret a moment of it.) so if i made a bad judgment call, i could see myself falling off a ledge over someone who didn't care. so skittishness is a way of making myself reeeeally think about what's going on and what i'm doing. if i feel apprehension to meet someone, i generally trust my gut reactions.

avena -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (9/26/2011 12:07:34 AM)
No, I haven't been forced or coerced into going beyond my safety zones...but I've felt exactly like you described - quote: I LIKE TO PLEASE MY MASTER (I also like some hinted level of force or coercion in my M/s relations). So when he would ask me to do something I didn't like... I would bend over backwards to TRY to be at least OK with it on some level because I wanted to please him. I'm also very familiar with not having very well defined limits. Through various discussions, usually resulting from an incident where I felt like he was asking me for something I couldn't give him, which then degenerated into me going into full out panic mode...we have organized several 'categories' for my limits. There are, of course, the absolute hard limits. These are the things that no way in a million years would I ever consent to, no matter how mind blown I was. Kana listed a few good hard limits in a previous post. I have others, of course, but in the grand scheme of things, the number of limits in this category is pretty small. Next down the scale are the 'never tried them, don't want to try them, the very thought of trying them sends me straight into panic mode...but you never know, because people change with time...ask me again in a few years' limits. For me, most of these items will probably never actually make it off this list, but I'm not going to rule them out just because, right now, they scare the shit out of me. There are a lot of things I do now, and enjoy, that the mere thought of doing 10 years ago would have scared the shit of out me. Again, there are a relatively small number of limits in this category. D likes to tease about these limits because he knows that I'll take it as just teasing. I trust him not to push me too far. Next is the 'never tried it, not all that interested in trying it or am ambivalent towards trying it, but if the circumstances are right, i might be willing to go there for you' limits. This is one of the largest limits categories for us, mostly because there's a lot of things that I haven't experienced yet. Some of the things that are high on D's 'wants' list happen to be in this category, so it's one that gets pushed, on a mental level, fairly often. He assesses my responses and decides whether it's time to take things to the next level, or whether he should back off for a while yet. And last, there's the 'tried it, didn't like it, being pushed too hard here could have negative consquences, but I'm open to being pushed because I know it's important to you' category. The main difference between this and the previous category is the fact that I actually have tried these things, and I know my response to them. Under a situation of trust, I can usually repress that response, but I can't always control it. D is well aware of this, and is prepared to have me freak out completely if he pushes any of these items. But for every time I can't handle it and freak out, there's at least 12 or so other times where I can handle it, and it turns out wonderfully. This and the previous category are the ones that are rapidly losing items, since we keep working through new things for me, or working at old things. My advice to you...is don't worry about having a hard and fast set of limits. The whole hard limit/soft limit thing was too limited (ha!) for us, so we expanded on it...and it helped. It may seem a little anal to some people, but it made it a lot easier for me to slot something into a category when I encountered something new...and I didn't have to explain WHY it fit in that category, to myself or to anyone else. That's just where it fit. I had a friend who helped me flesh out my original lists. He sat me down, told me to close my eyes, and then gave me a scenario to imagine. Then, based on my mental reaction to that scenario, I was able to put it in the right category for me. Having already thought through a lot of different scenarios meant that I don't get blindsided by something I'm not sure about that often. I already know if this is something I should be slowing down or talking to D about, so I don't have to question my own judgement. And having the list is a great tool for discussing things with D. It worked for me.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (9/26/2011 7:37:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana The reason I don't really care for limits is that experience has shown me that there are things I really dig with some people...that I have hated doing with others. And vice versa. And the only way we can discover what does and does not work for us is experimentation, which involves openmindedness. And yep, occasionally mistakes will occur. I may push a button I don't know exists, or say or do the wrong thing. But that's life. Exactly.

DoesAsIAmTold -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (9/30/2011 6:46:27 PM)
Yes, I've been there. I found it difficult to refuse something during a session when I realised what was happening. I felt obligated to go along with it. It was discussed later and I ended up walking away because of it. For me the trust was gone. I could never submit to someone I didn't trust to some degree. Especially after they had broken that trust. It wasn't anything to do with limits. That would have been easy. He didn't take my long term safety into account. At the end of the day I accept I got played. I allowed that to happen though so take responsibility for it. It has made me more careful. Which isn't really a bad thing. Every cloud has a silver lining [:)] I did have issues when trying to move on. I found that most of my issues were with myself though. I found it difficult to trust myself, to put a stop to it, when things go wrong. That took me a lot longer to get my head round. I lost my sub head for a while. You do get past it. Sometimes it just takes time. As for limits. I have 2 kinds of limits. Hard limits, which are to do with my health, safety and the law. These will never be pushed. They are there for a reason. Others I call trust limits. They are simple things like tying up, gag and humiliation. Once I feel secure enough with someone they are automatically dropped. I don't count things I don't like as hard limits. I see them as part of submission. Give yourself time to get your head round it. Then pick yourself up, dust yourself down and get on with it. Use it as a learning experience.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/1/2011 8:29:24 AM)
Yes I have sbg. I won't go into the details here which would probably squick a good number of the people here. Suffice that it has taken me four years to accept that what I really want in my life is a sadist. Even so, I'm scared of going that route again since I so badly misjudged the last time. Zeph

ForeverOwned -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/3/2011 7:46:04 PM)
No, never, but when i tell him that i am afraid of something we talk about it and then he does it, and usually i am not afraid anymore. He has always shown me that instruments can cause pleasure as well as pain.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/3/2011 8:31:46 PM)
My Mom "forced" me to eat my peas when I was five... the bitch!!! [;)][8D]

Hisprettybaby -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/3/2011 9:47:50 PM)
No. I have never done anything beyond my limits. I've always established them with the other person BEFORE entering a dynamic and BEFORE any play took place. If a person went beyond my hard limits, he would no longer be my partner. My limits are there for my physical/mental/emotional health. ~Hisprettybaby~

Aynne88 -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/3/2011 9:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear quote: ORIGINAL: Kana The reason I don't really care for limits is that experience has shown me that there are things I really dig with some people...that I have hated doing with others. And vice versa. And the only way we can discover what does and does not work for us is experimentation, which involves openmindedness. And yep, occasionally mistakes will occur. I may push a button I don't know exists, or say or do the wrong thing. But that's life. Exactly. Yep!Love you guys[:)]/

agirl -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/4/2011 2:37:09 PM)
This is actually the reason why I don't have limits (apart from them not being allowed in my relationship...not that I had any to begin with)... I haven't a clue what I might like on any given day. I haven't a clue what is going to make me cry and bite the pillow when the day before I was enjoying it and clearly wanting more. I don't have the pleasing my master gene, and M has never expected me to be that way, either. Most of this angst was sidestepped due to the fact that I knew him years and years as a friend before he ever owned me. I knew him by then, and he knew me. We never talked about limits (other than the fact that they weren't going to be part of us) and even though he's owned me for years, we still haven't discussed them. There are quite a few things I'd rather not have to do again but I know that at some point they probably will occur. There are some things I'll always detest....such as being zapped with a cattle prod. It will still occur. Nothing has bothered me THAT much because we're in it together. It's not ME pleasing him, it's not HIM being nasty for the sake of it. It's us being in a charged situation. We KNOW each other oh, so well. If it's any consolation, I just wouldn't do what I do with anyone else...... because they aren't M. If I was single, and was asked about my limits, I'd move straight on to the guy that just chatted about anything and everything and that was obviously intent on just getting to know me with no agenda. They tend to be the people that are far more likely to get anywhere with me. agirl

talltxsub -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 6:51:19 AM)
There is not a contradiction here. It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive. quote: ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds quote: ORIGINAL: Kana You don't see the contradiction here? I never used the term soft limits, because mine are hard limits as in "do this to me and it's over." limits. That doesn't mean I am not willing to talk about them. I set limits not just based on morality and physical safety, but also for mental sanity based on my personal baggage. Yes I have it, and I deal with it, sometimes by omiting certain things or activities from my life. If one day I over come that baggage, I no longer need that limit to keep me sane and well balanced. I don't expect you to understand it, but I understand it perfectly well. People change, if a persons likes can change, so can their limits. Like I said before, someone who can't respect your limits won't respect you either.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 8:18:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl If I was single, and was asked about my limits, I'd move straight on to the guy that just chatted about anything and everything and that was obviously intent on just getting to know me with no agenda. They tend to be the people that are far more likely to get anywhere with me. agirl agreed -- and also; quote: ORIGINAL: talltxsub It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive. this is mostly why i don't get into limits discussions with people i haven't talked to and generally "know" -- 1) by my own experience, if i'm responding really well to someone, the limits don't matter so much, 2) if that person has really taken the time to get to know you, they come to understand what lines to observe for your sanity -- example: in my last relationship, M wanted to shave my head. i had HORRIBLE hair anxiety because of a couple of hair accidents i've had, plus, i've never had the most self-esteem or positive self-image. i had this really obvious visceral reaction to the suggestion; it wasn't something i would have ever even thought to put on a "limits checklist" but it wasn't so huge a deal that he wanted to end the relationship over it, instead he pointed out to me that i have these self-image issues and was always really encouraging and helped me deal with some of them. i think that if circumstances hadn't carried him off the planet, he'd have eventually overcome it. but it wasn't something he pushed and insulted me over, he didnt insinuate that i wasn't really submissive because everywhere else, i most certainly was and he was happy with me. but that was because he knew me; we became friends first and got a feel for each other before the power exchange ever came on the table. the emphasis was the interaction and relationship, not one or two "must have" activities. sometimes it seems like people only want to know what your limits are so they can put those at the top of the list of things to try out on you. it's like that's what they think Dominance is about; shoving you off your limits as a way to "expand your boundaries." they see themselves as life coaches, and your limits are unhealthy or unnecessary things to be overcome in the first 30 minutes. =p people who just seem to want to get to know me, instead of trying to make a checklist, are the ones who get furthest with me, too. oh p.s -- i also don't see a landmine as a full-stop end of a relationship. you don't always know what action is going to trigger something, or how someone will respond to something, even things you've both agreed sound interesting. sometimes even an activity you've done a bunch of times can cause a different reaction based on whatever different variables are floating around at the time. the only time i ever used a safeword was over something that most people would think as very minor, but for some reason, i was getting scared and couldn't chill myself out. i would never have expected that reaction from myself. i think, if anything, landmines present interested opportunities to talk and learn something new. but they don't have to be an instant termination offense.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 9:38:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: talltxsub It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive. sometimes it seems like people only want to know what your limits are so they can put those at the top of the list of things to try out on you. it's like that's what they think Dominance is about; shoving you off your limits as a way to "expand your boundaries." they see themselves as life coaches, and your limits are unhealthy or unnecessary things to be overcome in the first 30 minutes. =p It's a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? We are all on this site because there is something about the kink that floats our boats. So having those things we desire is important. The bolded part isn't something that seems to just come from the doms, in my opinion. We often see s-types on here talking about how someone's d-type "probably knows best," or "I'm sure your d has a good reason for pushing you." As though the majority of doms here are remotely qualified to know these things. I agree the current culture seems to promote the idea that this is what they are supposed to do. If I say something is a "no," I have my reasons. I may or may not be willing to go into deep detail about them, but considering I'm 47 years old and these are my reasons, no one is going to make those decisions for me. Yep, that limits my playing field, but I'm ok with that.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 10:02:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It's a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? We are all on this site because there is something about the kink that floats our boats. So having those things we desire is important. very true; there's something fulfilling about being pushed (at least to me), but there's a really fine line where you're dabbling with someone's brain, and you can cause a heck of a lot more harm than good if you don't know what you're doing, but you believe you're ENTITLED to do it. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The bolded part isn't something that seems to just come from the doms, in my opinion. We often see s-types on here talking about how someone's d-type "probably knows best," or "I'm sure your d has a good reason for pushing you." As though the majority of doms here are remotely qualified to know these things. exactly; they're regular people, not licensed and trained psychotherapists. =p

talltxsub -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 1:16:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It's a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? We are all on this site because there is something about the kink that floats our boats. So having those things we desire is important. very true; there's something fulfilling about being pushed (at least to me), but there's a really fine line where you're dabbling with someone's brain, and you can cause a heck of a lot more harm than good if you don't know what you're doing, but you believe you're ENTITLED to do it. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The bolded part isn't something that seems to just come from the doms, in my opinion. We often see s-types on here talking about how someone's d-type "probably knows best," or "I'm sure your d has a good reason for pushing you." As though the majority of doms here are remotely qualified to know these things. exactly; they're regular people, not licensed and trained psychotherapists. =p

talltxsub -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 1:21:30 PM)
That is not to say, however, that in the right situation some limits could be pushed, but that cannot be where the relationship begins. It is one thing to be submissive, but that should not be taken to mean that a submissive is not intelligent enough to know what is either offensive or dangerous. It also seems that many dominants feel the need to make up for a lack of education or intelligence by making assertions about things where they are clearly ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). Recently, a woman i was talking with was making assertions about my profession which showed clear, overwhelming ignorance that was not susceptible to correction. It is one thing not to know something (we are all ignorant of MANY things), but it is a character flaw to insist that being dominant means that one is always correct. quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It's a bit of a conundrum though, isn't it? We are all on this site because there is something about the kink that floats our boats. So having those things we desire is important. very true; there's something fulfilling about being pushed (at least to me), but there's a really fine line where you're dabbling with someone's brain, and you can cause a heck of a lot more harm than good if you don't know what you're doing, but you believe you're ENTITLED to do it. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The bolded part isn't something that seems to just come from the doms, in my opinion. We often see s-types on here talking about how someone's d-type "probably knows best," or "I'm sure your d has a good reason for pushing you." As though the majority of doms here are remotely qualified to know these things. exactly; they're regular people, not licensed and trained psychotherapists. =p

LafayetteLady -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/11/2011 6:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: talltxsub That is not to say, however, that in the right situation some limits could be pushed, but that cannot be where the relationship begins. It is one thing to be submissive, but that should not be taken to mean that a submissive is not intelligent enough to know what is either offensive or dangerous. It also seems that many dominants feel the need to make up for a lack of education or intelligence by making assertions about things where they are clearly ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant). Recently, a woman i was talking with was making assertions about my profession which showed clear, overwhelming ignorance that was not susceptible to correction. It is one thing not to know something (we are all ignorant of MANY things), but it is a character flaw to insist that being dominant means that one is always correct. I think the whole point is that it isn't merely a dominant's decision when to start pushing a limit. Sure, some limits can be pushed, but that's something the people in the relationship should discuss. Nope, being submissive should not be taken to me that the s-type lacks intelligence. Moreso, it should mean that ultimately we are all responsible for our own behavior. No one can "force" you to do something you don't want to do unless they are committing a crime. Too often, s-types come in saying, "my dominant forced me into something I wasn't ready for..." The reality is that the s-type, in an effort to be so obedient and subly or in the heat of the moment, they allowed someone to go too far and in the "morning light" (so to speak) have regrets about their own behavior. Ultimately, that is what the OP is about. This isn't an assumption, I've spoken privately with her. In those situations, it isn't fair to place the blame on the dominant, although it seems to be a pretty common conception. But then it is also a common comment around here about personal responsibility. You can't really have both.

Kana -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/12/2011 5:48:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: talltxsub There is not a contradiction here. It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive. quote: ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds quote: ORIGINAL: Kana You don't see the contradiction here? I never used the term soft limits, because mine are hard limits as in "do this to me and it's over." limits. That doesn't mean I am not willing to talk about them. I set limits not just based on morality and physical safety, but also for mental sanity based on my personal baggage. Yes I have it, and I deal with it, sometimes by omitting certain things or activities from my life. If one day I over come that baggage, I no longer need that limit to keep me sane and well balanced. I don't expect you to understand it, but I understand it perfectly well. People change, if a persons likes can change, so can their limits. Like I said before, someone who can't respect your limits won't respect you either. Huh? I in no way shape or form stepped down the road you are paving for me. My goal in a relationship is to have fun, enjoy the presence of a nice female, spend time w/someone I like, cause some terrific screams, share some bodily fluids. It's certainly not to sift through her life seeking out "limits" and then trying to break them, for no purpose than because I think it's a good idea. I don't go smashing through peoples limits for no reason and I seriously don't go around calling folks less than sub/slave for having them. Fuck. I have limits. All sane people do. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to heckle someone for having them. So please don't go putting words in my mouth cuz I said nothing even close to what you are implying. I see a contradiction for a simple reason-I don't believe in soft limits. Either one is willing to do something, or they're not. It's that simple. Once again, repeat after me. A limit is a limit is a limit. There is no fucking around. Limits are things like, No amputations. No chainsaw sex. No minors. No sex with aliens/dinosaurs/muppets/ different family/genus/species sort of stuff. You know, acts that in a million years for a million dollars one wouldn't do Otherwise it's something they don't like doing, but under the right circumstances/situation/mood/person they will...which to my mind is not a limit. That's just a preference. In this case the poster said first that she had limits, they were there for a reason and if the dominant tried to move through them then it was a red flag and he was an asshat douchebag. Ok, I can accept that. In the very next breath, she said, however, that at a certain point, she was willing to let limits be "talked down" or worked on. No contradiction here eh? Let's try that once more. If a guy talks to her about breaking limits he's an selfish jerk, but it's also acceptable to be talked down. Huh? The two sentences defy each other. Hence, they are contradictory. And as for the she tells him when she's ready for limits to be broken/move ahead...if that's the case, then I have to wonder who's wearing the pants in the relationship cuz it certainly sounds as if the sub is setting terms and timetables, and that's not exactly what I see as submission. JMHO and all.

agirl -> RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? (10/12/2011 6:55:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: talltxsub There is not a contradiction here. It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive. quote: ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds quote: ORIGINAL: Kana You don't see the contradiction here? I never used the term soft limits, because mine are hard limits as in "do this to me and it's over." limits. That doesn't mean I am not willing to talk about them. I set limits not just based on morality and physical safety, but also for mental sanity based on my personal baggage. Yes I have it, and I deal with it, sometimes by omitting certain things or activities from my life. If one day I over come that baggage, I no longer need that limit to keep me sane and well balanced. I don't expect you to understand it, but I understand it perfectly well. People change, if a persons likes can change, so can their limits. Like I said before, someone who can't respect your limits won't respect you either. Huh. I in no way shape or form stepped down the road you are declaring for me. My goal in a relationship is to have fun, enjoy the presence of a nice female, spend time w/someone I like. It's certainly not to sift through her life seeking out "limits" and then trying to break tem, for no purpose than because I think it's a good idea. I don't go smashing through peoples limits for no reason and I seriously don't go around calling folks less than sub/slave for having them. So please don't go putting words in my mouth cuz I said nothing even close to what you are implying. I see a contradiction for a simple reason-I don't believe in soft limits. Either one is willing to do something, or they're not. It's that simple. Once again, repeat after me. A limit is a limit is a limit. There is no fucking around. Limits are things like, No amputations. No chainsaw sex. No minors. No sex with aliens/dinosaurs/muppets/ different family/genus/species sort of stuff. You know, acts that in a million years for a million dollars one wouldn't do Otherwise it's something they don't like doing, but under the right circumstances/situation/mood/person they will...which to my mind is not a limit. That's just a preference. In this case the poster said first that she had limits, they were there for a reason and if the dominant tried to move through them then it was a red flag and he was an asshat douchebag. Ok, I can accept that. In the very next breath, she said, however, that at a certain point, she was willing to let limits be "talked down" or worked on. No contradiction here eh? Let's try that once more. If a guy talks to her about breaking limits he's an selfish jerk, but it's also acceptable to be talked down. Huh? The two sentences defy each other. Hence, they are contradictory. And as for the she tells him when she's ready for limits to be broken/move ahead...if that's the case, then I have to wonder who's wearing the pants in the relationship cuz it certainly sounds as if the sub is setting terms and timetables, and that's not exactly what I see as submission. JMHO and all. The part that I find interesting is the need for limits inside a close relationship. Any limits. How can I give myself over to anyone that didn't have the understanding that some things would affect me in a hideously debilitating manner, or that would cause me to want to leave? I don't need to protect myself from him.....He's on my side! To US, having any limit would be saying that I don't trust him to understand or care. It doesn't need spelling out in the form of a set of limits. This, actually, IS the crux of our version of being in an M/s relationship, of being owned. If I'd had a need for limits then he would have said no when I asked to be his because it'd be clear that we didn't know each other well enough. agirl

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