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Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/28/2011 8:30:27 AM   
vab8304


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Greetings all,

Maine, as some other states do, has an anti-discrimination law that "provides protection against discrimination based on sexual orientation which is defined as “... a person’s actual or perceived heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality or gender identity or expression.” These laws include Employment, Public Accommodations, Education, Credit and Housing. However, the sad reality is that many who would be labeled as such live a very different lifestyle in terms of housing, education, employment and so so, than those that do not fit into this scenario.

Even with these laws, what is the reality of those that are covered by this law? What issues do you face that seem to be in contrast to the very laws that should be protecting you from discrimination? This topic is important and I think there is a lot more work that needs to be done, but I am unsure as to how to proceed.

What are your thoughts?

Sincerely,
Vincent.
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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 9:06:58 AM   
xssve


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What? A serious topic? Are you lost? Do you know where you are?

Anyway, I'd not heard of this, I'd certainly like to hear more about it.

I've sort of taken to telling people that kinky sex is part of my religion (which it sort of is), and how dare they persecute me for practicing my religion? I hate doing this, I don't like feeling like one of those people who found congregations just to avoid taxes (most of them, I think), but the original order would be Executive order 10925:

quote:

Executive Order 10925

On March 6, 1961 President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 10925, which included a provision that government contractors "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin." The intent of this executive order was to affirm the government's commitment to equal opportunity for all qualified persons, and to take positive action to strengthen efforts to realize true equal opportunity for all. This executive order was superseded by Executive Order 11246 in 1965.


A Brief History of Affirmative Action (The rest has to do with legislation specific to California)

This was followed by the Civil Rights act of 1964, which specifies:

quote:

Civil Rights Act of 1964 Title VII. Prohibits employment discrimination because of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, pregnancy, (including childbirth or related condition).


University of Wisconsin: Summary of Relevant Laws, Policies and Regulations for Affirmative Action & Equal Opportunity.

Again, many of these policies are specific to Wisconsin, which interestingly include:
quote:

Directs UW System institutions to educate the university community about the professional risks associated with consensual romantic and/or sexual relationships where there is a potential conflict of interest or a potential abuse of power differential.


Anyway, I was trying to stay focused on that "Race Creed, Color, National Origin" thing, as that sums the thing up in principle - i.e., in many respects, BDSM is a creed, but of course much of the conflict there resembles the conflict over homosexuality, i.e., choice vs. orientation, presumably, calling a choice makes it more amenable to regulation.

I prefer to meet that argument head on, Technically, for the most part, these tend to be Fourth amendment issues - the Civil Rights Act of 1964 extends certain of these protections into the workplace, i.e., the Fourth Amendment says it's OK to be Black in the privacy of our own home, the CRA says that extends to the workplace.

In any case, it would be nice to get this sorted out on the Federal level, and in fact, that's pretty much how the CRA has worked, it's just that much like Mississippi, there are localities that either drag their feet or are actively trying to turn back the clock to the old WASP glory days, when the world was right and women and other minorities "knew their place", which presumably includes kinky folks, homosexuals and other "degenerates".

Technically, this smacks of an attempt to enforce a feudal caste system, and identifying it as such makes the practice sound a skosh less noble.

Most of this stuff stems from 19th century neo-Christian politics, which trend was largely driven by fear of immigration, and peaked with the eugenics movement of the 30's, developed here in America, but taken to it's logical conclusion in NAZI German, where, for the most part, the global consensus was: naaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.

So, Godwins Law or no, there is a fairly well documented body of history on the subject of regulating behavior, most of the arguments in favor have already been made, and are themselves documented, and for the most part, refuted - it's pretty much all over but the crying from a legal perspective, but there's still plenty of people crying about it.

I dunno about Maine, but the meta logic here is fascinating and complex, but it largely boils down to simple territoriality - there's a reason a lot of these people don't want to believe in evolution, since as a science it provides sound arguments for universal human rights, not to be confused with Social Darwinism, which is largely fictional, including, yes, I'm sorry, Gorean.

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/30/2011 9:17:30 AM >

(in reply to vab8304)
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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 10:45:20 AM   
LafayetteLady


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Without you mentioning specific examples of how this is so, there really isn't any way to logically comment. As it stands, it comes across as you having a personal agenda about the issue, but not giving an example because it would not support your agenda.

So if you could please be a little more specific.

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 12:42:43 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vab8304

What are your thoughts?



Thoughts on what?  That if, for example, a cross-dressing man who wants to teach a Kindergarten class in a poofy, pink dress should have the protected, legal right to do so?!!  Uhhh... no.



_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 4:23:47 PM   
LafayetteLady


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LOL. That was my point, too. What discrimination is the OP even referring to? I've found that people who make such general blanket statements and try to couch them in discrimination are usually trying to hide the fact that they were denied something based on facts totally unrelated to discrimination.

Interesting the OP still has not come back to give an example.

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 8:21:09 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


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Hello,

I understand your dilemma and confusion. Hypocrites and contradictions. I suggest joining bdsm support groups, and asking free law info lines and human rights organizations. There are so many resources out there to protect us but they are never advertised enough. But they DO exist.

Hope this helps.

_____________________________

Academy Mistresses
http://www.academyforslaves.com/home.html

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 9/30/2011 11:50:06 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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Nope doesn't help at all. Saying people are being discriminated against without saying how means nothing. Even the OP saying "these groups" are suffering discrimination in this state is meaningless. HOW are they being discriminated against? WHAT is happening?

A person can see discrimination anywhere if that is what they want to see. I can say landlords discriminate against me because I have pets. Doesn't mean they are.


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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 12:00:45 AM   
AdorkableAiley


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The problem with discrimination laws is that they don’t really protect as they are intended too. Sure you aren’t ALLOWED to fire or choose not to hire someone based on many different aspects, sexual orientation, disability, age or weight but the truth of the matter is there is very little in place to enforce the laws. You can’t prove you didn’t get the job over someone else because you were 30 years older, 70 pounds heavier or gay and most of the time you are hard pressed to prove that you were fired for those reasons either.  You can claim you were and the employer can just as easily claim it was for other reasons. There is a burden of proof on your shoulders as the accuser that is very hard to meet as most of us don’t stock pile things that may be evidence with the thought that we may one day need it in a court of law (well the less paranoid of us anyway,) and your word is nice and all but no good as hard evidence.

The law is well meaning, and don’t get me wrong I would rather have them there than not, but they are, for a large part, ineffective- for the reasons I have stated.



Ailey

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 12:10:56 AM   
LafayetteLady


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That's very true. At 47, finding a job isn't the easiest thing in the world, and proving discrimination can be difficult. But it still doesn't change the fact that just saying a place is full of discrimination without giving examples really has no meaning.

Sorry, but if the OP had said "Maine is full of discrimination because of THIS..." it would have opened a discussion.

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 8:32:13 AM   
xssve


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It is hard to prove, Wal Mart fires a lot of employees just before their 6 month probationary period is up and they become vested in the benefits program, but they always have a whole host of other excuses for doing it, they basically start a file on you from the get go, and make sure there are plenty of trumped up charges on it.

Even harder to prove sexual discrimination, the best you can do is find others with similar experience and establish a pattern - unlikely, since kink is often accompanied by a requirement for discretion (whereas a rumor is often enough to trigger discrimination), and without a conversation or an e-mail, i.e., a smoking gun, you have nothing but circumstantial evidence.

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 8:40:00 AM   
AdorkableAiley


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It is hard to prove, Wal Mart fires a lot of employees just before their 6 month probationary period is up and they become vested in the benefits program, but they always have a whole host of other excuses for doing it, they basically start a file on you from the get go, and make sure there are plenty of trumped up charges on it.

Even harder to prove sexual discrimination, the best you can do is find others with similar experience and establish a pattern - unlikely, since kink is often accompanied by a requirement for discretion (whereas a rumor is often enough to trigger discrimination), and without a conversation or an e-mail, i.e., a smoking gun, you have nothing but circumstantial evidence.


I worked for a place like that and it was so heart breaking and hard to watch. How anyone can treat anyone elses lively hood in such a manor for the sake of saving a few bucks is beyond me. I saw people with lives nearly ruined by a lost job that was very needed and the loss of available benefits that made a bad situation worse...

Corperate America, you suck!

Ailey

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 9:01:30 AM   
xssve


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Corporatism does suck, it reduces people to interchangeable parts in an inhuman machine - sexual discrimination is largely a PR move in that process, it's all about marketing, morality is an illusion, an empty ideal, sizzle, just another marketing tool, everything serves the quarterly report.

Kind of ironic really that the right wing rank and file has been conditioned to advance the very agenda that has no use for them as individuals, and sexual freedom becomes a very American act of rebellion and assertion of humanity and individuality.

Not surprisingly, there are a lot of kinky conservatives, but they're enslaved to a hypocritical illusion, which entails a high price for everyone.

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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 12:50:07 PM   
AdorkableAiley


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Joined: 9/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Corporatism does suck, it reduces people to interchangeable parts in an inhuman machine - sexual discrimination is largely a PR move in that process, it's all about marketing, morality is an illusion, an empty ideal, sizzle, just another marketing tool, everything serves the quarterly report.

Kind of ironic really that the right wing rank and file has been conditioned to advance the very agenda that has no use for them as individuals, and sexual freedom becomes a very American act of rebellion and assertion of humanity and individuality.

Not surprisingly, there are a lot of kinky conservatives, but they're enslaved to a hypocritical illusion, which entails a high price for everyone.



Now I feel depressed...

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/1/2011 7:25:34 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdorkableAiley

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Corporatism does suck, it reduces people to interchangeable parts in an inhuman machine - sexual discrimination is largely a PR move in that process, it's all about marketing, morality is an illusion, an empty ideal, sizzle, just another marketing tool, everything serves the quarterly report.

Kind of ironic really that the right wing rank and file has been conditioned to advance the very agenda that has no use for them as individuals, and sexual freedom becomes a very American act of rebellion and assertion of humanity and individuality.

Not surprisingly, there are a lot of kinky conservatives, but they're enslaved to a hypocritical illusion, which entails a high price for everyone.



Now I feel depressed...


No need to feel all depressed about someone's inaccurate perception of corporate America.

Sexual harassment isn't a PR thing at all, that's ridiculous.

The reality is that sexual freedom doesn't belong in the work place, period. It is one thing for an openly homosexual person to talk about their upcoming marriage, or new relationship or a wonderful vacation they took with their partner. But no one should be at work talking about their sex life, it's inappropriate. I've no doubt you know that.

The reason that more people don't sue for wrongful termination is simply because it isn't usually cost effective. Unless you are making close to 100 grand or more a year, you just aren't going to benefit financially from such a suit. Someone who is making 35K a year who is fired for sexual discrimination (or age, or race or whatever) can't afford to be out of work for very long, so their actual damages can be pretty minimal.

As for punitive damages and proving your case, most people don't do what they need to do. If you believe you are being sexually harassed or discriminated against, you can't just quit and go find a lawyer. There are procedures to follow that will strengthen your case. First you have to complain to your supervisor, or human resources, so it can be documented. Best way to do this is in writing or following up in writing after verbally making the complaint. If it continues to happen, you complain again, the same way. Without that, you have no proof that you gave your employer the opportunity to correct the problem, and that is something that most states are going to require.

For the punitive damages (pain and suffering), just saying it caused you psychological stress and grief doesn't cut it. You need to have medical documentation to support your claim.

These cases rarely get a great deal of publicity, and when you have a strong case, your employer is likely to offer a settlement, so it doesn't even get to trial. So people making a claim like xssve's are claims based on personal opinion and ignorance rather than fact.

The bigger problem is that you can find discrimination anywhere you look if that is what you want to find. It doesn't mean it actually exists, but rather that the person who constantly looks for it has their own agenda. Those people make it difficult for those who suffer real discrimination to prove their claims.

(in reply to AdorkableAiley)
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RE: Maine Anti-Discrimination Laws, Reality V Perception - 10/2/2011 11:08:47 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

No need to feel all depressed about someone's inaccurate perception of corporate America.

Sexual harassment isn't a PR thing at all, that's ridiculous.

The reality is that sexual freedom doesn't belong in the work place, period. It is one thing for an openly homosexual person to talk about their upcoming marriage, or new relationship or a wonderful vacation they took with their partner. But no one should be at work talking about their sex life, it's inappropriate. I've no doubt you know that.

The reason that more people don't sue for wrongful termination is simply because it isn't usually cost effective. Unless you are making close to 100 grand or more a year, you just aren't going to benefit financially from such a suit. Someone who is making 35K a year who is fired for sexual discrimination (or age, or race or whatever) can't afford to be out of work for very long, so their actual damages can be pretty minimal.

As for punitive damages and proving your case, most people don't do what they need to do. If you believe you are being sexually harassed or discriminated against, you can't just quit and go find a lawyer. There are procedures to follow that will strengthen your case. First you have to complain to your supervisor, or human resources, so it can be documented. Best way to do this is in writing or following up in writing after verbally making the complaint. If it continues to happen, you complain again, the same way. Without that, you have no proof that you gave your employer the opportunity to correct the problem, and that is something that most states are going to require.

For the punitive damages (pain and suffering), just saying it caused you psychological stress and grief doesn't cut it. You need to have medical documentation to support your claim.

These cases rarely get a great deal of publicity, and when you have a strong case, your employer is likely to offer a settlement, so it doesn't even get to trial. So people making a claim like xssve's are claims based on personal opinion and ignorance rather than fact.

The bigger problem is that you can find discrimination anywhere you look if that is what you want to find. It doesn't mean it actually exists, but rather that the person who constantly looks for it has their own agenda. Those people make it difficult for those who suffer real discrimination to prove their claims.






_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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