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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 1:48:39 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days of 24 hours, some thousands of years ago. This is a fact... for this knowledgment system. Well, it’s actually not a fact, indeed, scholars for millennia have debated what the length of the presupposed “day” was in the Bible…but that’s for another discussion entirely…let’s continue….shall we?

I think they should debate whether or not it might have been six days, first. Abstruse question, I know. But hey, scholars have to be willing to tackle the hard stuff.

K.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 1:54:52 PM

LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Lookie ... you are so baaaddd!

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 6:14:51 PM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

or simply read any important (quoted, famous in the branch) book about Jesus, written by a non-Christian historician of the last, say, 40 years (history is a science, and it advances).

Or..... I could read the four written while he was standing there, rather than read a shitload of supposition by people who weren't there, or worse, take the word of a man who read a shitload of supposition and now removes his head from his posterior and proclaims it to be fact.

Or, probably best would be to just mosey on by the way I would if I saw a wild haired freak on the side of the road with posters on both sides of his body announcing the invasion of Xztopians from the fourth galaxy in the 33rd dimension.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 9:13:20 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days of 24 hours, some thousands of years ago. This is a fact... for this knowledgment system. Well, it’s actually not a fact, indeed, scholars for millennia have debated what the length of the presupposed “day” was in the Bible…but that’s for another discussion entirely…let’s continue….shall we?

I think they should debate whether or not it might have been six days, first. Abstruse question, I know. But hey, scholars have to be willing to tackle the hard stuff.

K.

I do not know with whom is he speaking but I hope he understands that I do not consider this a fact for my knowledge system. It is only a fact is your knowledge system is "evangelical fundamentalism".

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 9:14:52 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Or..... I could read the four written while he was standing there, rather than read a shitload of supposition by people who weren't there,

Please excuse me if I have gotten this wrong, but I do remember vaguely reading a book by Bishop Shelby where he stated that the Bibles were written well after (IIRC c60-70 AD) the death of Jesus . It was a long time ago and I can't guarantee the accuracy of my memory on the details.

From wiki:
"Scholars variously assess the majority (though not the consensus [33]) view as follows:
Mark: c. 68–73,[34] c 65-70[35]
Matthew: c. 70–100.[34] c 80-85.[35]
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[34] c 80-85[35]
John: c 90-100,[35] c. 90–110,[36] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
Traditional Christian scholarship has generally preferred to assign earlier dates. [...] Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible (for a fuller discussion see Augustinian hypothesis):
Matthew: c. 50 to 70s
Mark: c. 50s to early 60s, or late 60s
Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70s to 80s
John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50s to 70"

AFAIK, there is much debate among scholars about the accuracy of the texts, and whether certain sections were added at much later dates. Without knowing much about it, I'm aware that there are debates about the selection of the 4 standard Gospels and the exclusion of certain other contemporaneous texts. So it seems there are some grounds for doubt that the absolute accuracy of the Biblical texts can be taken for granted.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/2/2011 9:17:15 PM >

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 9:31:18 PM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

or simply read any important (quoted, famous in the branch) book about Jesus, written by a non-Christian historician of the last, say, 40 years (history is a science, and it advances).

Or..... I could read the four written while he was standing there, rather than read a shitload of supposition by people who weren't there, or worse, take the word of a man who read a shitload of supposition and now removes his head from his posterior and proclaims it to be fact.

Or, probably best would be to just mosey on by the way I would if I saw a wild haired freak on the side of the road with posters on both sides of his body announcing the invasion of Xztopians from the fourth galaxy in the 33rd dimension.

Oh. Ya saw me, huh? Well, when the Xztopians get here, you'll be singing a different story then, won't ya? Just wait!

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 10:26:58 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
(...)

AFAIK, there is much debate among scholars about the accuracy of the texts, and whether certain sections were added at much later dates. Without knowing much about it, I'm aware that there are debates about the selection of the 4 standard Gospels and the exclusion of certain other contemporaneous texts. So it seems there are some grounds for doubt that the absolute accuracy of the Biblical texts can be taken for granted.

Absolutely.
Of course I understand you refer to the "new testament", as the extender tora (old testament) was indeed finished before Jesus... the better date could be the moment the "septuaginta" was finished.
But the quarrels about which books to take to any compilation of Christian texts, and even the necessity of such a compilation, were very, VERY long. In the process whole branches of Christianity were (sometimes completely) ignored: marcionites, ebonites and gnostics only to mention the most important ones. The new testament was not "finished" (had not its current form) until the Counsil of Cartago, 397 if I remember well. Not even in the famous Counsil of Nicea!
Of course, nobody but Christians *can* consider the Biblie completely accurate. If you do this, you are already accepting Christianity. And most archeologist, historicians, etc are no Christians (even if many are, no doubt about that).
If you want, I have one or two books I can recommend about this. Thank you for your interest, anyway.

PS: I know no Christian scientist (and I know some, my father for example) who considers that the Biblie is completely, 100% accurate. They are more realistic and reasonable than that, not even the Pope defends this.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/2/2011 10:33:38 PM >

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 10:43:41 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I do not consider this a fact for my knowledge system. It is only a fact is your knowledge system is "evangelical fundamentalism".

I doubt you will find an evangelical fundamentalist or any other kind of Christian, anywhere, who believes that the Earth was made in seven days.

K.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 10:48:13 PM

tazzygirl

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Considering the sun, moon and stars werent "made" until the 4h "day"... how long was a day?

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 11:04:25 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I do not consider this a fact for my knowledge system. It is only a fact is your knowledge system is "evangelical fundamentalism".

I doubt you will find an evangelical fundamentalist or any other kind of Christian, anywhere, who believes that the Earth was made in seven days.

K.

Of course this is not the point, but please check http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v18/n1/six-days .
If your point is, that it was six days, then allow me a laugh and then let us carry on. It was anyway not the point.

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" (Robert E. Heinlein, if I remember well)

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/2/2011 11:07:45 PM >

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 11:27:38 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I doubt you will find an evangelical fundamentalist or any other kind of Christian, anywhere, who believes that the Earth was made in seven days.

If your point is, that it was six days, then allow me a laugh and then let us carry on.

Bingo.

K.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 11:52:27 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I doubt you will find an evangelical fundamentalist or any other kind of Christian, anywhere, who believes that the Earth was made in seven days.

If your point is, that it was six days, then allow me a laugh and then let us carry on.

Bingo.

K.

Just for fun, but then you would also be wrong. One day. You said "Earth" :)

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/2/2011 11:59:35 PM

DeviantlyD

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Oh 'fess up. You're only here to pontificate and argue with posters here. It doesn't matter if they provide well thought out arguments or offer up well known and accepted facts or supply sound evidence from credible web sites...you will always essentially state that you are right (and you aren't) and everyone else is wrong (and they aren't), using your own brand of "logic" and your own personal definitions that only you use.

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Post #: 93

RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 12:11:01 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Just for fun, but then you would also be wrong. One day. You said "Earth" :)

I'm not following you here, but I am at least certain that I quoted you correctly: It was you who said "Earth".

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days of 24 hours, some thousands of years ago. This is a fact... for this knowledgment system.

K.

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Post #: 94

RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 12:14:16 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Just for fun, but then you would also be wrong. One day. You said "Earth" :)

I'm not following you here, but I am at least certain that I quoted you correctly: It was you who said "Earth".

One of this is, for example, evangelical fundamentalism. According to this knowledgment system, God made the Earth in seven days of 24 hours, some thousands of years ago. This is a fact... for this knowledgment system.

K.

Indeed. So - so were you, when you corrected me. :)
Anyway... I leave it there before it gets boring :)

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 12:45:55 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Anyway... I leave it there before it gets boring :)

Yes well, that's fine. I think I've figured out that you were saying God created the Earth in one day.

But I'll leave it there before it gets boring.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 3:43:30 AM

DeviantlyD

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I think the OP must have hidden every person who responded to this thread, so there's no more responses he can make! :D

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 7:07:28 AM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

or simply read any important (quoted, famous in the branch) book about Jesus, written by a non-Christian historician of the last, say, 40 years (history is a science, and it advances).

Or..... I could read the four written while he was standing there, rather than read a shitload of supposition by people who weren't there, or worse, take the word of a man who read a shitload of supposition and now removes his head from his posterior and proclaims it to be fact.

Or, probably best would be to just mosey on by the way I would if I saw a wild haired freak on the side of the road with posters on both sides of his body announcing the invasion of Xztopians from the fourth galaxy in the 33rd dimension.

Oh. Ya saw me, huh? Well, when the Xztopians get here, you'll be singing a different story then, won't ya? Just wait!

If they come looking like you, I'll be scrambling to find the Xztopian immigration department.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 7:18:27 AM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
(...)

AFAIK, there is much debate among scholars about the accuracy of the texts, and whether certain sections were added at much later dates. Without knowing much about it, I'm aware that there are debates about the selection of the 4 standard Gospels and the exclusion of certain other contemporaneous texts. So it seems there are some grounds for doubt that the absolute accuracy of the Biblical texts can be taken for granted.

Absolutely.
Of course I understand you refer to the "new testament", as the extender tora (old testament) was indeed finished before Jesus... the better date could be the moment the "septuaginta" was finished.
But the quarrels about which books to take to any compilation of Christian texts, and even the necessity of such a compilation, were very, VERY long. In the process whole branches of Christianity were (sometimes completely) ignored: marcionites, ebonites and gnostics only to mention the most important ones. The new testament was not "finished" (had not its current form) until the Counsil of Cartago, 397 if I remember well. Not even in the famous Counsil of Nicea!
Of course, nobody but Christians *can* consider the Biblie completely accurate. If you do this, you are already accepting Christianity. And most archeologist, historicians, etc are no Christians (even if many are, no doubt about that).
If you want, I have one or two books I can recommend about this. Thank you for your interest, anyway.

PS: I know no Christian scientist (and I know some, my father for example) who considers that the Biblie is completely, 100% accurate. They are more realistic and reasonable than that, not even the Pope defends this.

I can't reply to both of you at once, so I'll just do it here. There is no absolutely. What is, are groups of scholars trying to figure out who did what, when just about any source will tell you that the composition of those gospels occurred in a relatively short time frame after the death of Christ, and are comprised potentially of a variety of sources, including written texts. In fact, the source you quoted tweak, ascribes written texts as a potential source of all the gospel of Mark.

So, let's see what you want me to believe, that Item A, being the author of.. let's choose Mark, having Mark's writings, the writings of the witnesses, the oral testimony of the witnesses, knew less about the story than someone a couple of thousand years later.

I think I'll just let you all keep wandering along the path of damnit-damnit-damnit, Q must be here somewhere.

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RE: Jesus "Christ" today and then. - 10/3/2011 7:27:06 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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