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RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 8:37:30 AM

twistedwillow

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Replying to Kaliko~

I do understand what you are saying about the half way ethics thing, however, I personally believe in a circle of life. It involves life AND death. I have been involved with, and seen up close and personal, the death of animals for various reasons, including consumption.
To me, we are part of a giant web, linked with the smallest bug, to the biggest whale in the ocean.
Do I enjoy killing? NO. Is it a part of life? YES.
And when I do take the life of another living animal, I ensure it is as quick and painless as possible. And up until that point in time, I consider it my job to see that their lives are happy and as comfortable as I can make it.

As far as hypocrisy goes, I often find Vegans/vegetarians to be rather hypocritical, they worry about killing the cute and fluffies with the big eyes. But there is no thought to the worms and bugs and frogs and other animals that died in the planting and growing of "green stuffs."
And there is no drama for the bugs that get squished on the windscreens of their cars, I don't see them giving up driving to protect the animals. My sister is a vegetarian, her soon to be husband is a vegan, but they have no worries with letting their cats out to catch and kill the native wild life.
See? Where do you draw the line?

Please understand, I am not attacking you, just trying to point out some of the inconsistencies.

As an aside:

I do enjoy vegetarian meat alternatives ( well some of them anyway ) but they simply add to my diet, not replace meat in it.

twisted

_____________________________

Jesus died to forgive our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? —Jules Feiffer
Don't be fooled by the pretty words and sweet face.. sarcasm is the norm not the exception.

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 41

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 8:52:01 AM

LaTigresse

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I find that many vegetarians and animal rights people tend to be rather tunnel visioned.

I live in Iowa.....we raise A LOT of this countries food. I don't love factory farming but it does allow for animal AND pet food to be produced economically. I could go into a whole long tirade about a lot of the animal rights propaganda I see on television versus what I see in real life.

I do love animals but I do NOT see killing one as cruel. In fact, sometimes killing an animal is the most humane thing you can do for it. Eating an animal after it has been killed is irrelevant.

As far as World Vegetarian Day.....yay for those that celebrated it. I was unaware of it but would have ignored it like I do most every other ...fill in the blank...Day.

Except National Ice Cream Month.....I celebrated that whole heartedly.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/4/2011 8:54:34 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to twistedwillow)

Post #: 42

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 8:55:55 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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PETA's hypocricy.

"
PETA’s Mary Beth Sweetland should also answer for her own personal hypocrisy. Like more than ten million Americans, she’s diabetic. Sweetland injects herself daily with insulin that was tested on animals; she has conceded that her medicine “still contains some animal products -- and I have no qualms about it…. I don’t see myself as a hypocrite. I need my life to fight for the rights of animals.” "

Their 'shelters' also kill a majority of the animals that enter.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to twistedwillow)

Post #: 43

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 8:58:07 AM

twistedwillow

Posts: 546
Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Except National Ice Cream Month.....I celebrated that whole heartedly.

There's a National Ice Cream Month?
Well hot damn, why did nobody tell me this? Where do I sign up?

_____________________________

Jesus died to forgive our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? —Jules Feiffer
Don't be fooled by the pretty words and sweet face.. sarcasm is the norm not the exception.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 44

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 11:45:47 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Cream_Month

However........since you were unaware and did not get to celebrate in July.......we COULD have a Collarme Ice Cream Month in October.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to twistedwillow)

Post #: 45

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:06:47 PM

Kaliko

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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedwillow

As far as hypocrisy goes, I often find Vegans/vegetarians to be rather hypocritical, they worry about killing the cute and fluffies with the big eyes. But there is no thought to the worms and bugs and frogs and other animals that died in the planting and growing of "green stuffs."

LOL - here's what I wrote the other day in the PETA thread...

"It's similar to the other quite common argument - perhaps we shouldn't eat vegetables, either, due to all the birds and small animals that are killed during harvest by the machines. It's a diversionary tactic to find a hole in an argument that is not even being offered up."

quote:

And there is no drama for the bugs that get squished on the windscreens of their cars, I don't see them giving up driving to protect the animals. My sister is a vegetarian, her soon to be husband is a vegan, but they have no worries with letting their cats out to catch and kill the native wild life.
See? Where do you draw the line?

There are a few answers to that.

1. Doing some good is better than doing no good. Just because I can't achieve the most absolute state of bliss regarding what I would want a cruelty-free world to look like, does that mean that I don't do at least something that's important to me? Let's look at a different issue - world hunger. If I can't feed every child, would I be condemned for saving at least a few?

2. Common sense is called for. I would certainly hope there is no drama for the bugs that are squished on their cars because if they're that much of the fruitcake type, I can't imagine anyone being able to stand being around them. There is a clear difference between stepping on an ant when you walk outside and choosing to eat a burger or a salad for dinner. We make the choices we can make, and we live with with ones we don't make.

And this is why I find it hard to sit still when I find a vegetarian/vegan being critical of someone else's food choices. You are correct, many of us aren't doing everything we possibly could because that would involve never leaving the house or being a functioning member of society. The aim of a vegetarian diet, for many of us, is to reduce the financial support of the animal industry so that by-products that are sold to other companies become too expensive for their use, and those companies are forced to research alternative, man-made methods to achieve the same ends we already currently enjoy. It's not always about the cute animal with the big eyes. It's about an economic revolt...a v-e-r-y s-l-o-w and unpopular revolt, but a revolt just the same.

In the same manner, I find it hard to sit still when an omnivore criticizes another omnivore for not buying a certain type of food. The same argument could be made - is that person doing absolutely everything one can in order to support the cause? Of course not. So how can one be critical of another's choices because they are doing "less?"

3. Do they lecture you on your food choices? If they do, then I can see how you have those feelings toward them. I would, too. I hate it when people try to tell me how to eat, dammit.

On the other hand, you may be surprised at how often meat-eaters defend themselves when I have said nothing. How many times have I heard, when someone learns I'm a vegetarian, "Oh, well, I don't eat red meat." Um...I didn't say anything and I don't really care. But people feel the need to explain themselves to me. And many will go on to openly question or attack my choices. "Where do you get your protein?" "It's not fair to raise your child that way." "Well, deer would take over the world if we didn't kill them." Again...I didn't say anything and I don't really care. As a vegetarian, I will often find myself in a debate that I want nothing to do with. (Message boards obviously excluded.) I just want to eat my tofu in peace.

So..are you acting defensively toward them in anticipation of how they might judge you, or are they actually judging you? (Rhetorical.)

Thank you for taking what I wrote in the spirit of discussion. :)

(in reply to twistedwillow)

Post #: 46

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:14:42 PM

voidbrat

Posts: 115
Joined: 10/2/2011
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i always feel a little conflicted because i don't eat meat, but i can't quite give up my love of leather. is anyone else in the same boat?

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 47

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:15:15 PM

Kaliko

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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I find that many vegetarians and animal rights people tend to be rather tunnel visioned.

I'm not tunnel visioned. I'm just right.

(I often wonder whether I have to actually put a footnote that something is just a joke, but...that's just a joke. I actually agree with you.)

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 48

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:17:51 PM

Kaliko

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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: voidbrat

i always feel a little conflicted because i don't eat meat, but i can't quite give up my love of leather. is anyone else in the same boat?

Ah! Perfect example of what I'm trying to say!

I wouldn't think twice if I discovered you don't eat meat and still wear leather, as long as you don't criticize others for whatever choices they make.

If you start to tell someone that they can't eat meat while you're wearing your leather boots, then yeah, you're gonna get creamed by somebody.

(in reply to voidbrat)

Post #: 49

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:19:06 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I find that many vegetarians and animal rights people tend to be rather tunnel visioned.

I'm not tunnel visioned. I'm just right.

(I often wonder whether I have to actually put a footnote that something is just a joke, but...that's just a joke. I actually agree with you.)

It's allllllllllll good! I kinda guessed it was all in fun.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 50

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 2:19:50 PM

voidbrat

Posts: 115
Joined: 10/2/2011
Status: offline

no way everyone can do what they want. it seriously bothers my conscience a little. i'm trying to move away from wearing leather and from my drooling love of women who wear leather but it's harder to give up sexual appetite for me than appetite for a burger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: voidbrat

i always feel a little conflicted because i don't eat meat, but i can't quite give up my love of leather. is anyone else in the same boat?

Ah! Perfect example of what I'm trying to say!

I wouldn't think twice if I discovered you don't eat meat and still wear leather, as long as you don't criticize others for whatever choices they make.

If you start to tell someone that they can't eat meat while you're wearing your leather boots, then yeah, you're gonna get creamed by somebody.

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 51

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 4:48:47 PM

twistedwillow

Posts: 546
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Cream_Month

However........since you were unaware and did not get to celebrate in July.......we COULD have a Collarme Ice Cream Month in October.

Oh yes, I am up for that! I like the way you think LaT!

_____________________________

Jesus died to forgive our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? —Jules Feiffer
Don't be fooled by the pretty words and sweet face.. sarcasm is the norm not the exception.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 52

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 5:08:12 PM

twistedwillow

Posts: 546
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

@Kaliko

I try to be sensitive of their choice not to eat meat, indeed I admire their dedication in avoiding one of the yummiest foods known to man.

And, although my sister does not lecture me, her hubby to be, is a newly converted fanatic. He lectures every chance he gets, to the point where I cooked them a vegetarian meal one night ( First - and so far last - time I had cooked for them, when they started dating ) and while he sat at MY table, eating the food that I prepared, he proceeded to lecture me on my food choices.

But we have come to an agreement, he doesn't spout his crap at me and I wont do bodily damage

Basically, I do know this is something we ( as in omni's v veggies ) will never see eye to eye on, all I ask is that you ( again generic ) respect my food choices, as I do yours.

_____________________________

Jesus died to forgive our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? —Jules Feiffer
Don't be fooled by the pretty words and sweet face.. sarcasm is the norm not the exception.

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 53

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 6:50:14 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedwillow

I agree whole heartedly with Aynne.
I am a meat eater, always will be, but that is NO excuse to treat animal with cruelty and contempt.

Personally, I wish we had more respect for animal life and well being, and less so for the human scum who treat them ( and each other ) like shit.

Sigh...I'm not gonna make any friends here, but I have to say it - for discussion's sake, not to be critical.

How is it that, on one hand, you can say that you are a meat eater and always will be, and on the other, you wish we had more respect for animal life and well-being and that it's no excuse to treat an animal with cruelty?

There is a difference between animal welfare (providing an animal with a comfortable life until we kill them) and animal rights (not killing them in the first place). The difference, to me, is only in semantics. If an animal is ultimately killed, isn't that .... cruel? I would certainly consider it to be cruel if my daughter was killed and eaten, even if she lived in a palace and was fed champagne and caviar every day until the day she was killed - I'd consider that pretty cruel.

I say this because it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I don't pat myself on the back for being vegetarian because, even though I make certain choices, there is so much more that I could be doing that I don't. I'm not going to bolster up my halfway choices. Why is it, then, that people will say things like "I don't believe in cruelty to animals" while they dig into their burger, or that they'll eat burgers but not veal - because that's cruel. It's all cruel. It's just a matter of how much cruelty one is willing to admit to being numb to, and then we hide behind popular ethics to make ourselves feel better about our choices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

At least buy meat from local humanely produced farms. I'm not a vegan, just a compassionate human being. Laughing at diabolical cruel practices....says a lot about people.

Here, too...I just don't see how one can advise others on how to eat or buy their food (as if one's own choices are better - discussion is one thing, but advising others to "do as I do" is another) if that person is partaking in animals that were killed, which, though may not be the ultimate in cruelty, is pretty darn cruel - "humane" or otherwise. It surely would not make me feel any better if my child was humanely killed.

For clarification, I'm not putting down anyone's choices to buy from more humane organizations, or to feel that animal cruelty is wrong at the same time that they eat a burger. I hope I've made it clear that all of us, myself included, are guilty of hypocrisy in our actions in many things, not just the area of the ethics of eating.

What I have trouble with is someone saying they can't understand another's choices - that someone else's choices are more cruel than theirs - when their own choices are pretty clearly quite cruel.

Help. What am I missing?

You are missing the fact that most livestock are crammed in so tightly they can't even breathe, never see light, walk on grass, run, play or enjoy their lives at all. If we are too control their lives to the point of making them our dinner, can't we at least provide a decent existence and most importantly a humane and dignified death? You don't see the difference?

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 54

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 7:12:55 PM

DeviantlyD

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

PETA's hypocricy.

"
PETA’s Mary Beth Sweetland should also answer for her own personal hypocrisy. Like more than ten million Americans, she’s diabetic. Sweetland injects herself daily with insulin that was tested on animals; she has conceded that her medicine “still contains some animal products -- and I have no qualms about it…. I don’t see myself as a hypocrite. I need my life to fight for the rights of animals.” "

Their 'shelters' also kill a majority of the animals that enter.

This isn't the Politics and Religion forum. PETA may advocate vegetarianism and veganism, but this doesn't imply the reverse is always going to be true. Since this thread was started to celebrate Vegetarian Day and not "PETA" Day, why are you dragging negativity about PETA into this thread?

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 55

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 7:23:44 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

PETA's hypocricy.

"
PETA’s Mary Beth Sweetland should also answer for her own personal hypocrisy. Like more than ten million Americans, she’s diabetic. Sweetland injects herself daily with insulin that was tested on animals; she has conceded that her medicine “still contains some animal products -- and I have no qualms about it…. I don’t see myself as a hypocrite. I need my life to fight for the rights of animals.” "

Their 'shelters' also kill a majority of the animals that enter.

This isn't the Politics and Religion forum. PETA may advocate vegetarianism and veganism, but this doesn't imply the reverse is always going to be true. Since this thread was started to celebrate Vegetarian Day and not "PETA" Day, why are you dragging negativity about PETA into this thread?

Because PETA is one of the major forces for vegetarianism and veganism in the world.

ETA There was nothing in My post about politics OR religion. Simply a hypocritical group that pushes the vegetarian lifestyle.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 10/4/2011 7:24:52 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 56

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 9:27:12 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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..

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 10/4/2011 9:34:27 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 57

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 9:34:40 PM

DeviantlyD

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Since this thread was started to celebrate Vegetarian Day and not "PETA" Day, why are you dragging negativity about PETA into this thread?

Because PETA is one of the major forces for vegetarianism and veganism in the world.

ETA There was nothing in My post about politics OR religion. Simply a hypocritical group that pushes the vegetarian lifestyle.

I see a lot of things in that forum that aren't about political or religion. You presented the topic in very much a fashion representative of that forum.

And I will reiterate: PETA may advocate vegetarianism and veganism, but this doesn't imply the reverse is always going to be true. In fact, your statement suggests PETA is the reason for vegetarianism and veganism in the world and it simply is not. You're converting this thread into something negative and THAT is what I take issue with.

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 58

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 9:36:33 PM

DeviantlyD

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

If you do not disregard all others in your persuit of survival you are insane,

Period.

T^T

Maybe in your world it's all black and white, but in my world one doesn't have to exist at the exclusion of the other.

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 59

RE: World Vegetarian Day! - 10/4/2011 10:47:44 PM

Kaliko

Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

You are missing the fact that most livestock are crammed in so tightly they can't even breathe, never see light, walk on grass, run, play or enjoy their lives at all. If we are too control their lives to the point of making them our dinner, can't we at least provide a decent existence and most importantly a humane and dignified death? You don't see the difference?

Oh, yes, of course I see the difference. I'm not talking about whether one should make different choices about which meat product one buys. I'm talking about whether one should be critical of the choices of others. Advocating for a certain act or behavior is one thing. Incredulous disbelief that anyone would choose anything less than that which is being advocated is where I start to get fuzzy.

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 60

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