The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (Full Version)

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subfever -> The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 9:32:05 AM)

On Sept 17th 2011, a grassroots expression of contempt was launched in the heart of the world's financial center in lower Manhattan of New York City, also commonly known to the world as the institution of "Wall Street".


As of Sept 26th, there have been over 80 arrests and many recorded instances of what appears to be violence and abuse coming from the police and security forces there. However, the protesters remain vigilant in what could very well be a landmark event that will resonate for some time to come.


The Zeitgeist Movement would like to extend its public support to this basic expression. As the world awakens to a failing financial system with growing civil unrest emerging without the bias of sovereignty, religion or political loyalty, a new, unifying perspective is slowly taking hold which transcends the framework many of us falsely assume as empirical to our way of life.


With the slow grind down of the global workforce as machine automation continues to replace human labor for the benefit of corporate cost efficiency, simultaneously reducing purchasing power and hence inevitably stifling so called “Economic Growth”; with the ever expanding Debt Crisis born out of the Fractional Reserve Lending System, and the simple reality that money is created out of debt and sold as a commodity in exchange for Interest -Interest that can only again come onto existence through more loan sales; with the looming military programs growing in virtually all major powers as the financial crisis, coupled with a pending hydrocarbon energy crisis, begins to suggest a stage of global conflict possibly never before seen; along with the market psychology of Infinite Growth Consumption that continues to pervade and distort our values and what it means to live in harmony with nature on a finite planet... it might be time we begin to see that the social problems at hand are not specific to any general policy, administration, or even so called "corporate greed".


The real problem at hand is actually systematic via the very core foundation of what defines our Economic System and the psychology that is supported and rewarded. The historical illusion that continues to this day is that someone or some group is explicitly to "blame". Rather than focus on the 400 people who have more wealth than 150 million in America or the fact that globally 1% of the world's population has more wealth than 40%, let's instead ask ourselves how such a manifestation is even possible and, more critically, why we would expect anything less? Think about it.


After all, it's the "Free-Market", isn't it? Contrary to the statistically void efficiency assumptions made by most Market Economists, the Free-Market simply means anyone can do whatever they want and maximize however they want within the confines of legal legislation; legal legislation which, make no mistake, is also for sale in the Free-Market as well; as are political officials, regulatory institutions and whatever social entity you wish to consider.


Nothing but maximizing monetary gain is sacred and anytime a person or group brings some detrimental social or environmental consequence of this system to the forefront, pejorative distinctions are usually branded upon their forehead to stifle such concern and frighten other detractors... such as being called a “Socialist” or “Communist”. Furthermore, while people in protest today across the world continue to condemn monetary influence in social dealings such as the legal reality of Corporate Lobbying, even using such colorful terms as "Corporatism", “Crony-Capitalism” and even “Fascism”, they seem to misunderstand what this system is and always has been.


The Free-Market model of Economics is a haphazard, unscientific anarchy of organization which assumes that any person or group with enough money and hence power will be “responsible” in their actions both socially and environmentally. The problem is that the very definition of being "financially responsible” actually means to be socially and environmentally exploitative, manipulative and negligent; for the main driver of this system is Inefficiency.


The more problems in society in general, the more jobs are created and the more rich the upper 1% become. There is an empirical decoupling from what actually supports life and no alteration of the core configuration of the monetary-market Incentive will likely change that.


On a different level, this system, as an historical evolution, is actually based on a culturally hegemonic pretense. Once economic advantage is obtained, it will likely be kept. This is why everything in the system favors the wealthy by its general structure and inherent logic. While the public might complain about the fact that top Hedge Fund Managers bring in over 300 million dollars per year, they often do not find objection with an Interest system that rewards those with high deposits and essentially taxes those using credit. While you may buy your home with a loan, paying thousands in interest a year, a person of wealth can make a CD Investment and gain free interest income simply because they have the money to spare. Class separation and perpetuation and the growing wealth divide is not a byproduct. It is inevitable.


In the Free-Market, one is actually “free” to take away the liberty of others through the mere economic pressures generated from the game. You are only as free as the size of your wallet. The term “Institution Racism” was coined by civil rights activist Stokely Carmichael in the 1960s referring to how often unnoticed underlying policies and structures within the social system undermined African-American prosperity and equality. What we have today is a mere variation: “Institutional Classicism”.


Wall Street itself, which is the ultimate manifestation of the pursuit of money as a commodity rather than any form of true creation or social contribution, is naturally a ripe entity for symbolic objection for, at a minimum, it shouldn't exist at all and most certainly not have the grand effect it does on the stability of the global economy today, regardless of the inherent shortcomings denoted.


However, that stated, it must again be made clear that Wall Street and the Banking System are not the source of our problems. They are only symptoms of an Economic System which will continue to fail by the very gravity of its outdated and false assumptions of human conduct and environmental relationships.


The question then becomes, what do we put in its place? ~Z


About: The Zeitgeist Movement is a global sustainability activist group working to bring the world together for the common goal of species sustainability before it is too late. It is a social movement, not a political one, with over 1100 chapters across nearly all countries.


Divisive notions such as nations, governments, races, political parties, religions, creeds or class are non-operational distinctions in the view of The Movement. Rather, we recognize the world as one system and the human species as a singular unit, sharing a common habitat. Our overarching intent could be summarized as “the application of the scientific method for social concern.”


To learn more about our work, please visit www.thezeitgeistmovement.




xssve -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 12:31:06 PM)

Hadn't heard of it, haven't been watching he news lately - kind or leaning towards the Venus project myself - interest lending is the basis for the expansion of the money supply, but it isn't where the wealth is created, labor creates wealth, and many of the problems in the financial sector have to do with the rejection of the labor theory of value - that isn't technically capitalism, it's an atavistic phenomena that affects all economic systems: as capital becomes concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, it engenders political corruption and rent seeking that undermine competition, resulting in feudalism.

Ironically, it's the very process Adam Smith designed capitalism to counteract, "self interest in competition" - competition, not "rational self interest" is the critical element in capitalism, competition comes from the bottom, just like in biology - "too big to fail" is a concept utterly at odds with the very definition of capitalism, competition from beneath is the thing that keeps the system evolving, the only thing that prevents the system from becoming corrupt and static, innovation occurs on the margins, without that pressure from the margins, the fat center ceases to innovate and will turn into a wasteful bloat that will eventually become too corrupt to sustain itself.

Smith was very clear on this, financialization is not the savior of economic systems, it's a cancerous growth that has to be continually trimmed and regulated if it is to retain it's economic utility, it's at the heart of the collapse of all of the great economic systems of the past, Holland, England, etc. Labor theory of value baby, learn it, live it.

The economy was made for man, not man for the economy - it's not just words, the system has to remain in constant flux or it bloats and dies.




xssve -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 12:43:41 PM)

One big problem here is that the stock market itself is utterly superfluous to the function of capitalism, it's heresy because there is so much vested interest in it, but the reality is the stock market could be eliminated today and economics would not grind to a halt - it would be disaster, but it would only be a disaster to the stock market, not real markets, which would route around it because it would not affect the real reasons we need economics: people need to eat, need shelter, education, etc., money is merely an abstract medium of exchange, it possesses no intrinsic value, economics existed long before anybody thought of money.

Simply requiring firms to expense stock options would put an immediate stop to a lot of bullshit, but or course, those opposed to this have benefited greatly from using it to game the financial system, and hence have a lot of money to spend on negative marketing to prevent anything from being done about it.




DesFIP -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 2:21:52 PM)

Why isn't this in P & R?




VideoAdminDelta -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 6:00:32 PM)

I have to agree.  For those who may consider this a duplicate thread to what is in Pol & R now, please remember that it started in another section.

Please enjoy the topic.




Anaxagoras -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 6:26:56 PM)

If the title of your group is an accurate reflection of its character then its a good thing you guys weren't around in 1930's Germany! [:D]




Aneirin -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/1/2011 6:39:41 PM)

Let it all grind to a halt, fuck the stock markets, people will survive, they will build a new economy.




subfever -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 12:32:34 PM)

quote:

Why isn't this in P & R?


Admittedly, I felt initial indecision whether to post here or in Off Topic Discussion. Since The Zeitgeist Movement is a social movement and not a political movement, and the content of the post is primarily related to a current event, I ultimately decided to post there instead of here.

No problem being here though, since the exposure is probably greater here anyway, and the thread didn't regress to the all-too common right vs. left dead-end.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 12:39:30 PM)

Dont have time to look it up, does Zeitgeist mean "economic moron"?

This is by far the stupidest public statement Ive ever read:

"With the slow grind down of the global workforce as machine automation continues to replace human labor for the benefit of corporate cost efficiency, simultaneously reducing purchasing power and hence inevitably stifling so called “Economic Growth".




subfever -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 12:40:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Hadn't heard of it, haven't been watching he news lately - kind or leaning towards the Venus project myself - interest lending is the basis for the expansion of the money supply, but it isn't where the wealth is created, labor creates wealth, and many of the problems in the financial sector have to do with the rejection of the labor theory of value - that isn't technically capitalism, it's an atavistic phenomena that affects all economic systems: as capital becomes concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, it engenders political corruption and rent seeking that undermine competition, resulting in feudalism.

Ironically, it's the very process Adam Smith designed capitalism to counteract, "self interest in competition" - competition, not "rational self interest" is the critical element in capitalism, competition comes from the bottom, just like in biology - "too big to fail" is a concept utterly at odds with the very definition of capitalism, competition from beneath is the thing that keeps the system evolving, the only thing that prevents the system from becoming corrupt and static, innovation occurs on the margins, without that pressure from the margins, the fat center ceases to innovate and will turn into a wasteful bloat that will eventually become too corrupt to sustain itself.

Smith was very clear on this, financialization is not the savior of economic systems, it's a cancerous growth that has to be continually trimmed and regulated if it is to retain it's economic utility, it's at the heart of the collapse of all of the great economic systems of the past, Holland, England, etc. Labor theory of value baby, learn it, live it.

The economy was made for man, not man for the economy - it's not just words, the system has to remain in constant flux or it bloats and dies.


I'm not going to expound upon economics here, or even Adam Smith's Invisible Hand theory... but did want to point out that many of TZM's (The Zeitgeist Movement) concepts are based upon Jacque Fresco's theories.

For those of you who are unaware, Jacque Fresco is the creator of the Venus Project.




subfever -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 12:45:27 PM)

quote:

If the title of your group is an accurate reflection of its character then its a good thing you guys weren't around in 1930's Germany!


I'd hazard a guess that any movement not in sync with the Third Reich would have been swiftly eliminated... [;)]




subfever -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 12:51:17 PM)

quote:

economics existed long before anybody thought of money.


And it will continue to exist long after we've evolved from the use of money.




DomKen -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 1:23:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Dont have time to look it up, does Zeitgeist mean "economic moron"?

This is by far the stupidest public statement Ive ever read:

"With the slow grind down of the global workforce as machine automation continues to replace human labor for the benefit of corporate cost efficiency, simultaneously reducing purchasing power and hence inevitably stifling so called “Economic Growth".

This 'group' is the raving nut conspiracy theorist behind the Zeitgeist fantasy film that gets posted a couple of times a year here. He's apparently decided to try and glom onto something that has nothing to do with his paranoid fantasies.




Anaxagoras -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/2/2011 2:53:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
quote:

If the title of your group is an accurate reflection of its character then its a good thing you guys weren't around in 1930's Germany!

I'd hazard a guess that any movement not in sync with the Third Reich would have been swiftly eliminated... [;)]

Yes but I meant that if one was to take the name of the movement as a reflection of the group itself then "Zeitgeist Movement" would have represented something quite unpleasant in 1930's Germany! [8D]




SternSkipper -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/3/2011 8:00:49 AM)

quote:

The Zeitgeist Movement would like to extend its public support to this basic expression. As the world awakens to a failing financial system with growing civil unrest emerging without the bias of sovereignty, religion or political loyalty, a new, unifying perspective is slowly taking hold which transcends the framework many of us falsely assume as empirical to our way of life.


Yeah, there's a zeitgeist-like effect here... but I guess your group is doing 'their thing' remotely. Why not send em on down and volunteer their presence for a day. What I here is vibes don't show up on video very well. You'd be welcomed with open arms at Dewey Sq. I know that much.[:D]
  This was an interesting post though with a lot of interesting observations.




SternSkipper -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/3/2011 8:06:12 AM)

quote:

Hadn't heard of it, haven't been watching he news lately - kind or leaning towards the Venus project myself


Nothing that matters has been in the news since Arab Spring... they've been swept into serving as an intellectual fast-food stop for the neo-cons as they gear for whatever they're NOT going to do next.





SternSkipper -> RE: The Zeitgeist Movement's Response to the "Wall Street Occupation" (10/3/2011 10:08:29 AM)

quote:

Simply requiring firms to expense stock options would put an immediate stop to a lot of bullshit, but or course, those opposed to this have benefited greatly from using it to game the financial system, and hence have a lot of money to spend on negative marketing to prevent anything from being done about it.


I say let em spend, no I take that back make em spend on negative PR. It's too fucking late for that. And they can't spend us out of speaking up. Guys on here who act as uninvited mouth pieces for the Big Finance crowd, operate a few pages short of the whole pamphlet.
   Let me give you a little example. The music industry has always to a large extent mirrored big finance (at the back end, WHERE THE MONEY IS), and even some of the same players are involved at the lobbying (look up RIAA and lobbying) and other layers of the whole mess.
   In the early 70s the Grateful Dead spent way too much money making "Wake Of The Flood" and fell right into the clutches of Warner Brothers and were basically told they were bankrupt,with a number of additional albums to produce under their contractual obligation. They did an end run, turning out a "best of" and teaming up to boost and positively influence an incoming artist named David Bromberg. And by appearing on his albums whittled it down. Garcia also made a few other appearances on other pieces. by other artists.  That done, they started relying on their tours as a primary source of income were good at self-promotion. Very soon there after, you could fill up a good size music hall or hockey arena ... and with the frequency they played, they became Billboard's top grossing act in gate receipts for two decades And the recording industry and a lot of other people DIDN'T want them to succeed. Hop did they beat the big machine? Word of mouth PR PERIOD! In fact, the Dead's success is to a large degree responsible for Indy. People can't offer whatever they want in terms of nay-saying... but history stands on it's own and when you look at it with clear eyes you can see they're wearing hip waders.
   The Same thing is happening with the occupation folks... We didn't need the news to get people down there and any if at all dollars spent to 'advertise' came from the individual's pocket. And the Internet was the megaphone. And these imbeciles on wall street and out on main street who say it won't happen or the laughable 'they don't know what they're up against' (LIKE THEY DO [:D]), well, they're just kidding themselves, masturbating and 'talkin dirty' into the web while actual shit happens.  I doubt negative marketing will have any more effect on this event than their blacking out of the news coverage. And don't think for one minute that some big financial interests didn't try to squelch Arab Spring (not so much Libya... but Gaddafi .DID have ALL THE COUNTRY'S Cash at his disposal).
    IT CAN HAPPEN ALRIGHT... And a lot more can happen than the mainstream is willing to let you know.
  I also think from speaking with a few cops on the scene yesterday that it isn't the same in every city. Cop attitude-wise. They aren't going to BUY the BPD for instance.






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