HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (Full Version)

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RaceBannon -> HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 5:42:32 PM)

First of all before the flack hits, yes I know, “RaceBannon” was the wrong name to pick (Who knew? Everyone but me evidently).

Now to the point:

My girl and I have been exploring a D/s relationship for several months now. She was just a playful sub girl wishing to play out some long-time fantasies, and the experiences for her have been no less than cathartic. After many years she now feels such thoughts might not be evil (tho there are relapses, of course), and is beginning to feel that her fantasies may not be so much a curse, as a gift. We knew immediately we were not Master/slave material (Who has such time? Well...this site proves that question moot). Yet as the months went by, and she continued to resist and push away from “the man for whom she has waited all her life” (Me-her quote not mine), I began to suspect that perhaps she might need more than mere “playtime” at the D/s game.

During one of our many break-ups (Yes, it’s been that volatile), as a last ditch effort I asked, “What would you think if every morning I gave you a list of tasks (of all the things she needs to do in her life, and whips herself for not doing), and at the end of the day you will be rewarded or punished for how well you did?”

After a long pause, she answered with a resounding, “YES! I HAVE WISHED FOR SUCH A THING MY WHOLE LIFE!”

This went well for two whole days. After which I made the mistake of not being consistent (Hey, this is new to me too!). Added to my failure, all her past teachings of “a person must stand on her own two feet” grew to haunt her and she resisted even attempting to continue. I will assume these problems are par for the course as far as newbies are concerned, yes?

Lately, it seems like all her past relationships (only a couple touched on her her wonderful kink), our relationship is destined to mimic her past history with men: when the going gets tough, she runs like hell! Though part of her “training” has been to work through such times and she has often (after putting her running shoes on) come through to see how it strengthens a relationship, circumstances have led to yet another flight, this one seemingly far more permanent than any before. The problem for her now is that she leaves behind someone with whom she is deeply in love (Me, lucky or not...the jury is still out on that), and fears she may never find the likes of me again (I feel the same about her).

I have tried to have her make contact with her own kind: other sub women. For we all grow up learning about relationships and ourselves from those like us: parents, friends, lovers, media, etc.. Yet for the closeted sub, one must go out and find such connections for only the very few find such needs “normal.” She didn’t bite on that suggestion (“If I look too deep into it, I’ll ruin it! She said, “Anyway they’re all a bunch of freaks!” Well...we are, aren’t we?) I have tried to have her go to a kink-friendly therapist with no luck. Her only outlet and inlet of information has been me or the few articles she reads or I send her; that and BDSM fiction.

This seems to me not a good thing (I ain’t the Well of Knowledge on this subject, and besides, I need HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!! Takes two to tango, right?)

Yesterday (we are parted now yet she seems unable to let go of me), she stated yet again what has almost become her mantra: “I can’t ask so much of a person.” ie-she can’t ask that someone devote so much time to her irrational and abnormal needs AND she must learn to stand on her own two feet like she’s been brought up to do like everyone else in the real world.

It seems to me the solution is the exact opposite: She MUST find and ask so much of a person for such desires have proven they are not disappearing in this lifetime (She’s thirty and this seems to be very true indeed). In fact, the more she explores her sub side, the stronger and more elaborate these needs become (She just loved in the movie "Secretary" that she was ordered to eat only six peas. "Can we do that?") What started as “playtime” is increasingly become a need for “lifetime.”

Now it seems to me that this statement:

“It is absurd to think I could find a man who I can call 5 to 10 times a day to get me through my day, a man who will spend a great deal of time thinking only of my needs and how to fill them, a man who will tell me what to wear, what and how much to eat, when to strip and be taken, and all other manner of things for which I have secret desires for him to do to me. What am I, a child???”

Is equally as unrealistic as this statement:

“It is absurd to think I could find a woman with a desire to live naked while in our home, have sex with me when ever I command, call me Lord or Master or Sir, bathe me, anoint me, worship me, and basically be my slave in any matter that I wish (that is good for her, of course). AND if she doesn’t do it I WILL PUNISH HER LIKE THE BAD SLUT SHE IS!!! What am I, an ego-maniac???”

In the outside world they would call these people “childish” and “egomaniacal.” At this site they would call such a thing “Welcome to the Club!”

Yet how to convince this love of my life that such wonders, desires, and needs fulfilled are only a commitment away with a helping of hard work; the same hard work required for vanilla relationships? When she pulls away and tries and tries to adhere to a “normal” lifestyle; one in which she has failed and failed (in her eyes) for years and years, she ends up right back at square one: running!

You can lead a whore to water but you cannot make her drink.

I am a parent and know the mistake of not being consistent with children; I know it is the same with this “slave child.” I can in time commit to such acts and carry them through but I need time and a partner who helps. I also know that children will eventually go there own way, and if your child is destined for wandering, all you can do is hope for the best. Unless she submits, not only to a man but to her own inherent self, there seems little a man can do. For the first time in her life she has found peace and joy in a man’s arms; for the first time in my life, I have found what I have sought for so long. What am I to do with this most lovely creature that loves me so dearly yet now flees from my love, protection, and guidance? Many times before, her running has led her to abusive relationships, she now runs to do the same. What is a newbie Dom to do with a relationship that seems destined for greatness yet is falling apart at the very seams?

I received a call from her a month ago. She flew across country to go to a job interview; a job she wanted badly. She called me from a bar and said, “I’ve decided not to go to the interview. It’s silly. I’ll never get it. I don’t really want it anyway.”

I said to her, “Finish your drink NOW. Get in the car. Go to the interview. Charm their pants off. Call me directly after. DO IT NOW!” She did so.

Later she called in joy and told me how well the meeting went and how much fun it was. She was positively buoyant! She forgets such things very quickly, and can’t seem to understand that in her submission lies the power for her to equal if not exceed the “normal” women who do so well around her. She wants very much to have such power in her life (and be a little sex toy, to boot!).

Obviously I will be sending her this thread. Your answers can be directed to her, or to me.

I would say that asking you people is my last resort, but I think this might be the seventh, eighth, or fifty-second time I’ve used that remark concerning this relationship. Thanks for the help, I do love her so.

Er....Race (sorry)



cariad -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 6:09:52 PM)

girl too has run many a time and has come back to her former Master....... girl's problem was that she is not used to being able to talk about her feelings, and not have the Man/Dom run. When her former Master showed her that He wasn't going to run when she spoke to Him of her feelings she realized she had a good Master, but sadly since then things have turned around and she now finds herself looking, although at this moment she is not looking for a Master.

Perhaps have her read SM-101 by Jay Wiseman and the book "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns," as they are helpful tools as is wizdomme.com and castlerealm.com.

girl learned a lot from these sites and from talking to others in the lifestyle both online and by finding a local bdsm group she can go to the munches and play parties.

Ask her what she wants, what she desires, what her dreams are, and go from there..

girl hopes this helps a bit and that things work out for both of you.

Blessed Be



juliaoceania -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 7:04:31 PM)

First of all you can tell her being a "freak" is what we ALL are in our own way. Some submissives are highly functioning human beings with perfectionistic tendencies. Some of us go on to earn Masterd Degrees and PhDs because freaks tend to be over achievers, geeks, and intelligent. It takes some creativity to be so imaginative in our fantasy life.

But on to the other matters. First of all she needs to know you will be consistent if you "go there". I can tell you as someone that wants to do every assignment or task handed to me, if my dominant shows signs of being bored with it or forgetting it, well lets just say it bursts your bubble. You feel demanding of them, like they are going through a lot of trouble for you, and you are supposed to be the sub right? Submissives have different needs as do dominants. Some dominants do not want to micromanage their subs, others do... either way IMO it takes consistency for that which you have promised to relieve control over. In other words you should not take control over that which you have no time or interest in taking.

As far as her resistance to all of this, I think most submissives have this to a lesser or greater degree. Some of it is cultural or religious training, other parts of this resistance is past hurt or romantic disappointment, and then there is our insecurities and trust issues that must be overcome. When I have trouble trusting completely or feel insecure I often have trouble doing the things my One likes because of my issues. It is not necessarily because I do not "feel" submissive, it is because I feel afraid. Whatever her fears are I am sure it is at the root of most of the troubles. Even when we are angry fear is usually at the root of it.

As far as remaining a closet submissive, well that is a hard place to be, and one I know nothing about since my best friend is a fellow submissive. I have been lucky to have her to travel this road with me even when my first dom ditched me. Friends can be a complete source of comfort. There are online groups for submissives that live real time, I joined one of these groups, but I did not find it all that helpful. She might feel differently if she tried it.

I think she would be amazed at some of her fellow submissives and the positions they inhabit in society at large, even closeted ones such as herself. It seems to me that she has a lot of trouble with self acceptance, hence the abusive relationships. If nothing else I hope she realizes these feelings are not going to go away no matter how much she runs from you. Her feelings about her own submissive nature may very well be real boogie man... and that nature exists with or without you.

If she reads this I would just tell her there is no greater love we can show someone then letting them be who they really are. Some people can only give that sort of acceptance to total strangers. The rare person can give that to their mate, and idf this gentleman posting this thread gives you that sort of acceptance it is priceless, and I would consider that very carefully before I ran away from it...

Just my opinion



fastlane -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 7:27:39 PM)

You can't handle a submissive, obviously, you need a good dog.

Fastlanes whistles for Benji....Here Boy!



TNstepsout -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 7:43:26 PM)

I don't think you are going to get much of a learning curve with this one. It sounds like you are either all in, or all out. If she tells you she can't expect a man to do all she asks you to do, simply explain it's not up to her to decide. It sounds like she really wants you to take over from top to bottom so she can relieve herself of guilt and shame. She is still dealing with self doubt, and whether she should or shouldn't be submissive. You are going to tell her she has no choice. She has opened the door but still hasn't stepped through. You are waiting on the other side for her to decide. What she really wants is for you to pull her through, slam it and lock it.

Good Luck



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 7:58:41 PM)

You're just repeating the same cycle.  Either she learns how to deal with your lack of perfections as a mature adult, or she doesn't get involved in an adult relationship. 

I think you should refuse to be in a relationship with her until she can live as a competent independent adult for at least 18 months.  THEN you can start to date eachother again.



Invictus754 -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 8:20:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
You're just repeating the same cycle.  Either she learns how to deal with your lack of perfections as a mature adult, or she doesn't get involved in an adult relationship. 

I think you should refuse to be in a relationship with her until she can live as a competent independent adult for at least 18 months.  THEN you can start to date eachother again.

This is the second time you have suggested (not to the same person, of course) that they should stay out of a relationship.  Are you relationship-adverse?  To me, ending this relationship would be like telling a swimmer, "gee, that backstroke is needing some work.  Stay out of the pool till it gets better."  If you are not working on the relationship, the relationship will not benefit from it. 
 
Personally, it sounds like she needs to be told the next break up is the last one, however.  She needs to know that you are there for her, but only as long as she is trying to work on her issues.  If she cuts and runs, the last bridge is burned and there is no coming back.  Some subs are just not worth the trouble, and she sounds like she has been a whole heap of it.
 
As TNstepsout said, pull her in, slam the door, lock it and tell her she is now to obey you fully.  If she unlocks the door and splits, lock it behind her.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 8:25:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
Are you relationship-adverse?

I'm dysfunctional relationship/reinforcing someone's immature/ultimately self and relationship desctructive behavior adverse. 

Both of these situations have been cases of that.
quote:


To me, ending this relationship would be like telling a swimmer, "gee, that backstroke is needing some work.  Stay out of the pool till it gets better." 

You keep bringing up really bad analogies.
quote:


If you are not working on the relationship, the relationship will not benefit from it. 

If you read my FULL post history, you'll see tons of posts where I say "talk it out, work it out."

On the cases where I see real adults SINCERELY trying to work on something, with at least some skills to go on- I encourage that.

On the cases where I just see train wrecks not really with any hope- I say so.  And in THIS case, I didn't say "abandon ship."  I said "Give it 18 months"  Huge difference.

quote:

As TNstepsout said, pull her in, slam the door, lock it and tell her she is now to obey you fully.  If she unlocks the door and splits, lock it behind her.

And I think your method is actually a lot crueler than mine.  It doesn't make her accountable for her own actions from the BEGINNING and it doesn't make her prove to HERSELF that she can do this and that she really wants this.  I think THAT is what needs to happen before anything else productive can occur. 



LadyHugs -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 9:01:27 PM)

Dear RaceBannon, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
As I read, re-read and read again, it is extremely evident there is a tug of war per se. 
 
Based on what you wrote, knowing there are two sides of every story; people see things differently and communication is paramount.  Being new at this, it is a rough road as you both are trying to discover yourselves, let alone trying to guide another person at the same time.  This is no different than running into the ditch, get out of it, go to the opposite side of the road and run into the ditch there to.  Back and forth.
 
Perhaps you both need to sit down and communicate.  Get lists made of what is pro and cons, make up situations, for example; When I go to X with troubles, I do this and X does this.  Perhaps by identifying what it is, what it is not and, then really focus on the what is not clearly identified.  Sometimes it is blending between both.
 
It is also a need to make sure there is a clear line, as to what is fantasy and what is reality.  Fantasy is safe; perhaps why she isn't willing to seek out others and get a dose of what 'reality' is.  It is too beautiful in fantasy, that real life is scary and isn't as sexually driven throughout the entire book.  Sex sells.  So, perhaps what else does she have of value more precious than sex?
 
BDSM support and education groups are great.  Perhaps reading up on some books, Screw the Roses really covers a lot for beginners and I do endorse Jay Wiseman's book SM101.  All books can offer different views on things but, sometimes you just need to create your own recipe to success.
 
Another observation of this lass, is that she has been struggling with relationships and or situations that have failed.  Repeating the pattern, as to create it so all relationships will fail, will remain in the traffic pattern in behavior and also in the mental chat that goes on inside her mind.  Many questions need to be asked.  It is comfortable in knowing the 'end' of the story/relationship and it is a real effort to break that unbroken thread of mental chat and behavior and or attitude as it deals with relationships.
 
Sometimes, people use BDSM and or a  D/s relationship in patching up relationships.  The question is--are you both ready to work on yourselves before working on the partner-- each other?
 
Fantasy BDSM, where dreams come true and happy endings.  However, I would prefer a partner to enjoy in reality and walk in the happy times as much as the sad times.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



CrappyDom -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 9:06:42 PM)

Race,

I cannot tell you how much it breaks my heart to read your story, the story I wrote which parallels yours so closely as to be scary, ended badly for US but well for us as individuals.  However, to this day, mention of her name brings my heart to a stop.

I can give you some advice you will ignore and she will tell you is wrong.  If you want to be a dominant, BE one. 
quote:

What would you think
  WRONG, who the fuck cares what she thinks!  As a therapist once asked me during my version of this relationship "who exactly is the dominant"?  The problem with being a dominant, is you don't really get to be dominant of THAT girl, you get to put out a yard sign saying Dominant, and you get to dominate whomever shows up and wants to set up house with you.  Meaning, you say, I want my submissive to do X and only those who enjoy doing X are going to be interested in being with you.

If you structure the relationship to make it work with her, she is in charge and will leave you. 

The other problem is she is too immature, too inexperienced to recognize any of this.  She is still in love with her fantasies and hasn't been beaten around the head enough by reality to see she has someone pretty damn good standing in front of her.  Trust me, you are a better dominant that 2/3 of those here on collarme already.

As for treating submissives like an adult child, there are many similarities.  You are right about consistency and firmness.  One you are wrong about is punishment, use it very very sparingly,  use disapointment first, since submissives are not in fact children, this works surprisingly well.  Another is to show love but remove yourself.  Make her kneel at your feet at the side of a couch with her facing the wall while you do something quiet.  Put a hand on her shoulder to make her feel connected but NO other connection.  It is an adult time out. 

It is hard for me to write clearly as this hits me at a very core place on any number of levels so if this is a bit confused, forgive me. 

What you need to do is make it clear this is YOUR ship, she is the ONLY crew you want, but YOU are in charge.   Do not say she is free to leave (hidden message of "I don't want you" ) but instead say "these are the rules to stay". 

As for the phone calls, trust me again, been there, fucked that up.  You have to learn to make sure she feels connected with you, even if you have to ring off.  You also have to learn (I may just be projecting here) to not take her panick, her disapointment, her almost anything as a sign of your failure or of you making a mistake.  She is the one who needs support, it is HER insecurity that requires all the calls.  Don't hear blame (which I used to prior to anger management therapy) her her screaming "help me" no matter what words leave her mouth.  I developed  a calm soothing tone that I  use (too late for "this" relationship) and a sort of banter to help sooth her down.

Oh and stop reading S&M erotica, I BEGyou to buy a copy of The Topping Book and The Bottoming Book!  They won't solve your problems but they will make you feel like you are doing some of the right things.

I am now going to go off and have my own little pitty party and pine for lost time and past mistakes....



CrappyDom -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 9:12:05 PM)

Oh, I want to add, when she is railing away at what an asshole, idiot, submissive, abuser, etc, she is really saying "I am afraid".  What she needs from you is for you to be a rock.  This is asking a LOT, an almost unbearable burden (fuck the usual platitudes) of you but if you think she is worth it, BE that rock.  Let her rail against you, make it clear always that you love her, that she is your little girl, and that you will be there for her when she calms down.  Remember, they ACT like children but submissives are NOT children.  Tell her when she calms down, you have a place for her at your feet. 




ownedgirlie -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 9:33:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Oh, I want to add, when she is railing away at what an asshole, idiot, submissive, abuser, etc, she is really saying "I am afraid".  What she needs from you is for you to be a rock.  This is asking a LOT, an almost unbearable burden (fuck the usual platitudes) of you but if you think she is worth it, BE that rock.  Let her rail against you, make it clear always that you love her, that she is your little girl, and that you will be there for her when she calms down.  Remember, they ACT like children but submissives are NOT children.  Tell her when she calms down, you have a place for her at your feet. 




This post made my eyes well up.  It was exactly what my Master did in our early days and exactly what I needed to feel safe, so I could trust in him to help me find the foundation I needed, and become the strong woman and deeply submissive slave to him that I am today. 



BitaTruble -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 9:41:14 PM)

I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu here. Didn't we just do this same thread?

I'm going to repost the same advice I gave you last time because it's the exact same issue.

Repost:

What an extrodinary post. I offer only a few observations based on what you've written and please understand this is based only on my own experiences and what has worked in my own relationship with Himself. Most of this comes from how he treats me.. and we just celebrated 10 years together, so something is working. ;)

Don't argue with her. Fighting takes two... let her try it solo and see how quickly such fizzles. Be in control of the situation. Be her Master and don't allow the behavior and certainly don't engage in it yourself. Send her off to reflect... when she's calm and can speak to you as an adult without fighting, then allow her to do so. Control of your own emotions is not always easy, but it is imperative that you do so. Often times instituting a ritual, at least in the beginning, can help guide the relationship in the direction you want it to go. The reins are yours to take.. you have only to pick them up and use them wisely.

If you have a strong foundation, the passion won't burn it out, so take time for each other. Recognize the needs each have, but, Sir, you must remain in control and follow through is so important. Say what you mean, mean what you say and act when you must act. Starting slow and building brick by brick is no bad thing... the mortar is your consistancy.

I would hesitate to try to 'become' what she needs. Be who you are, then there is no 'try'.. accept yourself first, offer that and work towards growth, but don't try to change your basic nature. It seldom works and is frustrating as hell when it fails.. not just for her, but for you as well.

There is no blame. If it's meant to be, you'll make it work but do so from a place of truth of self.. and she needs to do that as well.

I wish you both happiness and hope.

Celeste





juliaoceania -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/23/2006 11:20:34 PM)

actually Crappy, disappointment works surprisingly well with children too (at least as long as it is real disappointment...lol)



Level -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 2:49:09 AM)

Race, you need to look inside yourself and determine if you can/want to handle being called "5 to 10 times a day to get me through my day, a man who will spend a great deal of time thinking only of my needs and how to fill them, a man who will tell me what to wear, what and how much to eat, when to strip and be taken, and all other manner of things for which I have secret desires for him to do to me. "...... she may grow into a more calm and responsible submissive, or not, and if not, do you think you might get burned out having to micromanage her to that degree?



bandit25 -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 3:53:22 AM)


Gee, race, such good advice here.  Here's my take...and take it for what it's worth.  You love the woman and it sounds like she loves you.  That's great!  But love just doesn't solve everything.  She sounds waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay needy.  If you can handle that without going nuts yourself, do it.  She prolly is worth it.  If not, then decide when enough is enough and stick to it.  LadyHugs gives excellent advice as usual.  I mean, come on, she's 30 years old.  Time to grow up.  And before I get 10 yards of you know what, I do know that some people never do, but she should at least try.  Yes, by all means, be her rock, but you must take care of yourself also.

julia also gives very good advice...from the sub's pov.  She needs to accept who she is.  She needs to see that it's ok to be who she is.  Once she does accept herself, she will begin to see those other relationships and how destructive they were in the proper light.  However, you do need to be consistent.  If you can't be, you could do more harm than good.

Good luck.



RaceBannon -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 7:03:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

First of all you can tell her being a "freak" is what we ALL are in our own way. Some submissives are highly functioning human beings with perfectionistic tendencies. Some of us go on to earn Masterd Degrees and PhDs because freaks tend to be over achievers, geeks, and intelligent. It takes some creativity to be so imaginative in our fantasy life.

There is little doubt that my girl (well, perhaps no more) is a perfectionist. She has visions of a love beyond love. She expects a great deal from herself and wishes to marry into a union that far exceeds the expectations of most people (perhaps all people). Of course, over the years when her relationships ran into problems, her solutions have been to exit rather than to fight for the union. This is understandable because as far as I understand it, she has always looked to the wrong men. When she found a man with whom she finally explore long wished for desires, I'm afraid without the experience of finding solutions to make a stronger "us," she has reverted to what she knows: flight.

Her imagination is without compare. It is a wonder which is a delight I have not experienced in my prior relationships.

But on to the other matters. First of all she needs to know you will be consistent if you "go there". I can tell you as someone that wants to do every assignment or task handed to me, if my dominant shows signs of being bored with it or forgetting it, well lets just say it bursts your bubble. You feel demanding of them, like they are going through a lot of trouble for you, and you are supposed to be the sub right? Submissives have different needs as do dominants. Some dominants do not want to micromanage their subs, others do... either way IMO it takes consistency for that which you have promised to relieve control over. In other words you should not take control over that which you have no time or interest in taking.

Well put. At first neither of us thought such things were necessary; we were just playing. As I began to know and understand her, it became apparent that perhaps more "control" was necessary than just in the bedroom (I may be wrong here, but I don't think so). She continually points toward a more reliance upon her man. I certainly did not wish to micromanage her at first (It never occurred to me anyone would even wish for that sort of thing). Once it became apparent that this might be a need of hers, I took interest in micromanaging her life. As I said it was short lived. It just felt strange and yes, I did not commit to it (a mistake). Yet neither did she, nor ever to our relationship even though she knows deep down that I am good for her (at least at this time in her life). Such micromanaging requires commitment from both parties to be sure. I could have committed to this, but eventually she would have to follow. All of these things require committment. It was my feeling that the relationship itself lacked this commitment on her part and always has; she just can't leg go for love (not yet at least). Or perhaps her perfect vision for love is so high, that until that perfection is met she will never let go.

Of course, until she learns to actually work on a relationship, such perfection is impossible, isn't it?

I do not know about all the others on this sight; but it is my belief that unless a woman falls into the arms of love, such a relationship is difficult. It seems that D/s without "letting go" is like putting the cart in front of the horse. I may be wrong about this (I am wrong often), it may be she can not love me unless she is "forced" to comply, but neither of us are so far out of the vanilla world to dismiss this fact: you can't make someone do something they don't wish to do, even if it for there own good; and pity the man who tries to "force" his lover into a relationship.

I feel I am very good for her. She suspects that I am very good for her. That's a big difference. Until she "knows" it, there seems little I can do.

As far as her resistance to all of this, I think most submissives have this to a lesser or greater degree. Some of it is cultural or religious training, other parts of this resistance is past hurt or romantic disappointment, and then there is our insecurities and trust issues that must be overcome. When I have trouble trusting completely or feel insecure I often have trouble doing the things my One likes because of my issues. It is not necessarily because I do not "feel" submissive, it is because I feel afraid. Whatever her fears are I am sure it is at the root of most of the troubles. Even when we are angry fear is usually at the root of it.

Again very well put. This sounds much like her. Her fear is being too reliant on another (I would think that would be a HUGE problem for a sub). I think she must rely more on another. It has always been our ongoing battle. She wishes so deeply that her needs (which are great indeed) could be filled; yet being so needy is her biggest fear of all. She cannot comprehend that "needy" is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally I am surprised I have found such neediness to be wildly attractive. Many men do not. It is my assumption that most men here, or at least the ones who are here to learn not abuse, feel the same. She cannot accept such a man exists, and that perhaps such needs attract rather than repel. nor does she accept that maybe these needs will not change.

As far as remaining a closet submissive, well that is a hard place to be, and one I know nothing about since my best friend is a fellow submissive. I have been lucky to have her to travel this road with me even when my first dom ditched me. Friends can be a complete source of comfort. There are online groups for submissives that live real time, I joined one of these groups, but I did not find it all that helpful. She might feel differently if she tried it.

It has indeed been a hard place for her. Always she has sent out signals to her lovers in the past, always to be disappointed. I was the first who acted on such signals. Bringing her "darkside" into the light has been a slow, sometimes exhausting, yet always fascinating journey for us both. Yet bringing her to the idea to embrace being so needy rather than see it as a curse, has been our downfall.

I think she would be amazed at some of her fellow submissives and the positions they inhabit in society at large, even closeted ones such as herself. It seems to me that she has a lot of trouble with self acceptance, hence the abusive relationships. If nothing else I hope she realizes these feelings are not going to go away no matter how much she runs from you. Her feelings about her own submissive nature may very well be real boogie man... and that nature exists with or without you.

The abusive relationships are not physical; they are merely relationships with men who either don't love her, or "boys" who could never please her. She certainly has troubles with self acceptance. She sees herself as imperfect, and such a thing will not do. I see her as perfection. I do not wish to fix her because there is nothing to be fixed but acceptance such perfection and methods to bring out the great power of her submission (it certainly weilds great power over me). Who knew convincing her of that would be so difficult? I do now.

If she reads this I would just tell her there is no greater love we can show someone then letting them be who they really are. Some people can only give that sort of acceptance to total strangers. The rare person can give that to their mate, and idf this gentleman posting this thread gives you that sort of acceptance it is priceless, and I would consider that very carefully before I ran away from it...

Your well thought out opinion has been most helpful. Particularly about the consistency which I feel I have been in all aspect with her except that with the list. Perhaps there have been other areas where I have been inconsistent with her. Perhaps that is why she resists. If we ever reunite, I will give this matter a great deal of thought. I thank you.

Just my opinion






RaceBannon -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 7:20:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

You can't handle a submissive, obviously, you need a good dog.

Fastlane whistles for Benji....Here Boy!
  Bold words from a man who is "looking" for a sub.



RaceBannon -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 7:22:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I don't think you are going to get much of a learning curve with this one. It sounds like you are either all in, or all out. If she tells you she can't expect a man to do all she asks you to do, simply explain it's not up to her to decide. It sounds like she really wants you to take over from top to bottom so she can relieve herself of guilt and shame. She is still dealing with self doubt, and whether she should or shouldn't be submissive. You are going to tell her she has no choice. She has opened the door but still hasn't stepped through. You are waiting on the other side for her to decide. What she really wants is for you to pull her through, slam it and lock it.

Good Luck
Perhaps you are right. Yet "forcing" a woman into a relationship is not only against my nature, but it is a method I believe to be just plain wrong or a sure way to drive yourself and your lover insane. Thank you, but this is not an option.



RaceBannon -> RE: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!! (5/24/2006 7:28:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You're just repeating the same cycle.  Either she learns how to deal with your lack of perfections as a mature adult, or she doesn't get involved in an adult relationship. 

I think you should refuse to be in a relationship with her until she can live as a competent independent adult for at least 18 months.  THEN you can start to date eachother again.
Well this certainly has crossed both our minds. There are many aspects about my life that do not fit her ideal: I am recently divorced with children. Being with such a man was never her dream. Yet we found kindred spirits in one another and after such a long search, she fears another lengthy search might never find such a spirit. Yes, she has many times said, "I just need to be alone to find myself." Yet not only does she fear being alone, when she has been alone, she has never "found herself." I believe she needs someone to guide her for now. Whether our union is one headed toward marriage, or merely a preparation for her to marry, I believe being with me to be a good thing for her.

thank you for the thoughts



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