RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 5:07:36 AM)

[Ed to fix typo]

non-belief and disbelief mean different things.

I don't believe is not the same as I disbelieve




Real0ne -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 8:19:09 AM)

read this again.

Its not about splitting hairs over the word.  Belief is a process. 

You need to defeat the process not the word.

here read it again.


to believe requires a mental decision.

to not believe or disbelieve requires a mental decision.

In either case you accepted a position based on a mental decision.

The acceptance of "any" position by definition "is" a "belief", in this case one is simply positive the other is negative.

Absence of belief requires that no mental decision process was involved and no outcome determined.  That is the only instance one could legitimately claim "no belief".  (or change the definition of belief)

The acceptance of a position or premise by some mental process as correct or true "is" or creates a condition of belief.

To believe or not to believe are both an acceptance of a conclusion.

Hence either way it is a belief.

Therefore it is impossible to be with out belief if a person takes a position on a matter. 

To believe is a position, to not believe is a position, to be without a belief is to be without knowledge or thought process hence without a position.

Example of "NO" belief:
Absence of belief:  Do you believe in the existence of God?  I dont know I never heard of God.


The atheist claim that "I do not believe" is the same as "no belief" fails reason on its face by definition.

So to add; that belief by definition is based on the acceptance or non-acceptance of some premise as true or false.  The 3rd option is no knowledge of the matter.  Atheists conclude and accept a premise of non-belief, no belief, disbelieve whatever as being correct and true.  Hence with that acceptance an atheist believes God does not exist.


"I do not believe" is a determination made "with subject matter knowledge" whereas "no belief" is without determination or knowledge or similar circumstance.

The whole (modern) atheist argument with respect to belief and religion frankly falls apart.





feel free to outline any argument to the contrary.









Hippiekinkster -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 8:33:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Dieses (Feststellung) is sogar noch mehr schwachsinnig als Crazymls OED idiotisch Elefantmist.


Ah, I think you misunderstand the purpose of these boards - if you're not actually going to add anything substantive to the argument, and you're going to simply call people names in a foreign language, you run a real risk of looking like a jackass.

Just sayin.
So you are admitting that you aren't bright enough to translate that, eh?

Here's a clue, genius: no personal attack was made.

Now why don't you enlighten us all as to the purpose of these boards?




HannahLynHeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 9:23:00 AM)

quote:

Dieses (Feststellung) is sogar noch mehr schwachsinnig als Crazymls OED idiotisch Elefantmist.

this (statement) is even more idiotic than crazyml's idiotic oed elephant dung.

how's that?




crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 11:47:58 AM)

NM




crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 12:13:43 PM)

NM




gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 12:29:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

gungadin09: Ok. Accepted. If you find anything you consider wrong, let me know. I would be glad to learn too.


There was nothing, really. i just completely misunderstood Your argument, is all.

pam




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 2:48:13 PM)

OK, I started out on this thread with a proposal that got sidetracked a dozen different ways, mostly my fault for not being specific enough and for skipping over a few steps in my thought process leading to my conclusion, in my original posting. So, I will restate my idea and lay it out very carefully.

First, to recap, the OP is about a court decision to allow a prisoner to establish an atheist study group in the prison. Their reasoning was that atheism was a religion by the definition they used. Unfortunately, the section of the decision provided didn’t supply that definition. I thought about that a bit, and I came up with my idea of how one could justify atheism as a religion under the 1st Amendment. Keep in mind, I am not approaching this from a philosophical or theological or even a semantic point of view, I am looking at it purely in the context of the 1st Amendment.

So, to begin.
1. A religion is made up of one or more associated beliefs, ideas, rules, rituals, etc. relating to matters such as the nature of God/gods, morality, the afterlife, and so on.

2. The question of the existence of god/gods is one of great religious significance, and therefore it is a “religious” question.

3. Any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, in as much as it is an opinion that cannot be backed up with any verifiable facts or data.

4. So, any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, and furthermore, it is a belief of a religious nature, thus a “religious belief”.

5. Atheists are of the opinion that there are no god/gods; therefore they have an opinion on a religious issue, and therefore a “religious belief”.

6. Furthermore, since atheists have at least one “religious belief”, they can be said to have a “religion”, or at the very least, a religious philosophy <thanks for the phrase Lance>.

7. The 1st Amendment protects all religions and religious philosophies <see the decisions regarding Secular Humanism>

8. Therefore since atheism can be defined as a "religion or religious philosophy", it is protected under the first amendment.

That is the whole of the chain of ideas, assumptions, and conclusions that I followed to reach my decision that the court made the correct decision, to whit, that for the purposes of the 1st Amendment, atheism is indeed a “religion”.

Again, thanks to Lance for his help getting my thoughts in order.





willbeurdaddy -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 2:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

OK, I started out on this thread with a proposal that got sidetracked a dozen different ways, mostly my fault for not being specific enough and for skipping over a few steps in my thought process leading to my conclusion, in my original posting. So, I will restate my idea and lay it out very carefully.

First, to recap, the OP is about a court decision to allow a prisoner to establish an atheist study group in the prison. Their reasoning was that atheism was a religion by the definition they used. Unfortunately, the section of the decision provided didn’t supply that definition. I thought about that a bit, and I came up with my idea of how one could justify atheism as a religion under the 1st Amendment. Keep in mind, I am not approaching this from a philosophical or theological or even a semantic point of view, I am looking at it purely in the context of the 1st Amendment.

So, to begin.
1. A religion is made up of one or more associated beliefs, ideas, rules, rituals, etc. relating to matters such as the nature of God/gods, morality, the afterlife, and so on.

2. The question of the existence of god/gods is one of great religious significance, and therefore it is a “religious” question.

3. Any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, in as much as it is an opinion that cannot be backed up with any verifiable facts or data.

4. So, any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, and furthermore, it is a belief of a religious nature, thus a “religious belief”.

5. Atheists are of the opinion that there are no god/gods; therefore they have an opinion on a religious issue, and therefore a “religious belief”.

6. Furthermore, since atheists have at least one “religious belief”, they can be said to have a “religion”, or at the very least, a religious philosophy <thanks for the phrase Lance>.

7. The 1st Amendment protects all religions and religious philosophies <see the decisions regarding Secular Humanism>

8. Therefore since atheism can be defined as a "religion or religious philosophy", it is protected under the first amendment.

That is the whole of the chain of ideas, assumptions, and conclusions that I followed to reach my decision that the court made the correct decision, to whit, that for the purposes of the 1st Amendment, atheism is indeed a “religion”.

Again, thanks to Lance for his help getting my thoughts in order.




It wasnt really needed, your thought process was clear enough to begin with, and other than some semantic problems with the word "belief" the above is fine also. I havent heard anyone make a credible case for atheism not being covered under the 1st.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 2:59:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Dieses (Feststellung) is sogar noch mehr schwachsinnig als Crazymls OED idiotisch Elefantmist.

this (statement) is even more idiotic than crazyml's idiotic oed elephant dung.

how's that?
Perfekt! Sie haben sich nur eins winzig irren (aber nicht wirklich...). (Pass auf! Perfektzeit mit einem Reflexiv-verb!) (Ich bin wahrscheinlich total Falsch sowieso.) Schwachsinnig bedeutet auch "moronic". Das war meine intendiert bedeutung.




gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 5:20:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
...I thought about that a bit, and I came up with my idea of how one could justify atheism as a religion under the 1st Amendment. Keep in mind, I am not approaching this from a philosophical or theological or even a semantic point of view, I am looking at it purely in the context of the 1st Amendment.

So, to begin.
1. A religion is made up of one or more associated beliefs, ideas, rules, rituals, etc. relating to matters such as the nature of God/gods, morality, the afterlife, and so on.


Let's check merriam webster.

www.merriam.webster.com/dictionary/religion?show=0&t=1318545381
religion
1. a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b: (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
    (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2. : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.
3. archaic: scrupulous conformity
4. : a cause, principal, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

i can see how atheism might fit the definition "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices".

2. The question of the existence of god/gods is one of great religious significance, and therefore it is a “religious” question.

i agree. 

3. Any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, in as much as it is an opinion that cannot be backed up with any verifiable facts or data.

Yes.  Any opinion about the existence of god is a belief.  In other words, the opinion that there is a god, or the opinion that there is not a god, is a belief. Both of those are beliefs about god.  

4. So, any opinion regarding the existence of god/gods is a belief, and furthermore, it is a belief of a religious nature, thus a “religious belief”.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement over the meaning of the term "religious".  This is what an online dictionary has to say about it:


www.thefreedictionary.com/religious
religious
adj.
1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion.
3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious
(also:  religious  n. pl.   A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.)

Heather, when you say "religious belief" above, i think you're using the 2nd meaning (in other words, you're using the word "religious" to mean "having to do with religion".)  That is also what i mean when i say "religious belief"- i call any belief that has to do with religion a "religious belief", in the same way that i would call any belief about politics a "political belief".  That is one of the accepted usages of the word.  i think the problem is that certain other posters are using the 1st definition of the word "religious"- namely, something that expresses belief in god, specifically.  In that sense, atheism is NOT a "religious belief", because it most certainly does NOT express belief in god.  That is also an accepted usage of the word.  So, depending on how a person uses the word "religious", atheism may or may not be a "religious belief".

5. Atheists are of the opinion that there are no god/gods; therefore they have an opinion on a religious issue, and therefore a “religious belief”.


There has been another major dispute on this thread over the definition of the term "atheist".  This is what wikipedia has to say about it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.  In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.  Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.  Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.


If you scroll down the page, you will find the following diagram on the right:

A diagram showing the relationship between the definitions of weak/strong and implicit/explicit atheism.  Explicit strong/positive/hard atheists assert that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement.  Explicit weak/negative/soft atheists reject or eschew belief that any deities exist without actually asserting that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement.  Implicit weak/negative atheists would include people (such as young children and some agnostics) who DO NOT BELIEVE IN A DEITY, BUT HAVE NOT EXPLICITLY REJECTED SUCH BELIEF. 

In other words, the word "atheist" has various usages. There are different kinds of atheists (which you can specifically refer to by using the qualifiers "weak", "strong" "implicit", "explicit", "negative", "positive"), but in the absence of such qualifiers, the word simply means "the absence of belief that any deities exist".  So, atheism", in general, means the ABSENCE OF BELIEF.  In other words, unless you believe in god, you have an absence of belief in god.  THAT'S atheism. 

But those people who don't actively believe in god can fall into either of two categories.  They can fall into the category of people who don't actively believe in god BECAUSE THEY ACTIVELY BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD.  Or they can fall into the category of people who don't actively believe in god because they haven't thought about it, or just haven't come to a decision, and NOT BECAUSE THEY ACTIVELY BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD. 

In the broadest sense of the word, in the academic sense of the word, the term "atheism" includes both of those groups.  That is why several posters have disagreed so strongly with your (and my) assertion that the meaning of the word "atheist" is "someone who believes there is no god".  It DOESN'T necessarily mean that. It doesn't mean that to many of the people who have posted on this thread.  That is the problem.  If you were to say, "strong atheists are of the opinion that there is no god/gods; therefore they have an opinion on a religious issue, and therefore a "religious belief", you would be nearer the mark, but, as i said above, the term "religious belief" is also disputable.

6. Furthermore, since atheists have at least one “religious belief”, they can be said to have a “religion”, or at the very least, a religious philosophy <thanks for the phrase Lance>.

Not necessarily.  Again, the dispute is over the exact meaning of the word "religious".

7. The 1st Amendment protects all religions and religious philosophies <see the decisions regarding Secular Humanism>

As long as they ARE, in fact, religions or religious philosophies.

8. Therefore since atheism can be defined as a "religion or religious philosophy", it is protected under the first amendment.

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.

That is the whole of the chain of ideas, assumptions, and conclusions that I followed to reach my decision that the court made the correct decision, to whit, that for the purposes of the 1st Amendment, atheism is indeed a “religion”.

i agree with the court's decision.  But i'm now able to understand why others don't.


pam




Real0ne -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 5:23:32 PM)

Ok since this is such a hot potato for some people here is the WHOLE thing from the supreme court ruling that was used to adjudicate the wisconsin ruling which I will try and find.



367 U.S. 488 (1961) TORCASO
v.
WATKINS, CLERK. No. 373.

Supreme Court of United States.
Argued April 24, 1961. Decided June 19, 1961. APPEAL FROM THE COURT OF APPEALS OF MARYLAND. Leo Pfeffer and Lawrence Speiser argued the cause for appellant. With them on the briefs were Joseph A. Sickles, Carlton R. Sickles, Bruce N. Goldberg, Rowland Watts and George Kaufmann. Thomas B. Finan, Attorney General of Maryland, and Joseph S. Kaufman, Deputy Attorney General, argued the cause and filed a brief for appellee. C. Ferdinand Sybert, former Attorney General of Maryland, and Stedman Prescott, Jr., former Deputy Attorney General, appeared with Mr. Kaufman on the motion to dismiss or affirm. Briefs of amici curiae, urging reversal, were filed by Herbert A. Wolff and Leo Rosen for the American Ethical Union, and by Herbert B. Ehrmann, Lawrence Peirez, Isaac G. McNatt, Abraham Blumberg, Arnold Forster, Paul Hartman, Theodore Leskes, Edwin J. Lukas and Sol Rabkin for the American Jewish Committee et al. 489*489

MR. JUSTICE BLACK delivered the opinion of the Court. Article 37 of the Declaration of Rights of the Maryland Constitution provides:
"[N]o religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God . . . ."
The appellant Torcaso was appointed to the office of Notary Public by the Governor of Maryland but was refused a commission to serve because he would not declare his belief in God. He then brought this action in a Maryland Circuit Court to compel issuance of his commission, charging that the State's requirement that he declare this belief violated "the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States . . . ."[1]

The Circuit Court rejected these federal constitutional contentions, and the highest court of the State, the Court of Appeals, affirmed,[2] holding that the state constitutional provision is self-executing and requires declaration of belief in God as a qualification for office without need for implementing legislation.

The case is therefore properly here on appeal under 28 U. S. C. § 1257 (2). There is, and can be, no dispute about the purpose or effect of the Maryland Declaration of Rights requirement before us—it sets up a religious test which was designed to 490*490 and, if valid, does bar every person who refuses to declare a belief in God from holding a public "office of profit or trust" in Maryland.

The power and authority of the State of Maryland thus is put on the side of one particular sort of believers—those who are willing to say they believe in "the existence of God." It is true that there is much historical precedent for such laws. Indeed, it was largely to escape religious test oaths and declarations that a great many of the early colonists left Europe and came here hoping to worship in their own way. It soon developed, however, that many of those who had fled to escape religious test oaths turned out to be perfectly willing, when they had the power to do so, to force dissenters from their faith to take test oaths in conformity with that faith. This brought on a host of laws in the new Colonies imposing burdens and disabilities of various kinds upon varied beliefs depending largely upon what group happened to be politically strong enough to legislate in favor of its own beliefs. The effect of all this was the formal or practical "establishment" of particular religious faiths in most of the Colonies, with consequent burdens imposed on the free exercise of the faiths of nonfavored believers.[3] There were, however, wise and far-seeing men in the Colonies—too many to mention—who spoke out against test oaths and all the philosophy of intolerance behind them. One of these, it so happens, was George Calvert (the first Lord Baltimore), who took a most important part in the original establishment of the Colony of Maryland. He was a Catholic and had, for this reason, felt compelled by his conscience to refuse to take the Oath of Supremacy in England at the cost of resigning from high governmental office.

He again refused to take that oath when it was demanded by the Council of the Colony of 491*491 Virginia, and as a result he was denied settlement in that Colony.[4] A recent historian of the early period of Maryland's life has said that it was Calvert's hope and purpose to establish in Maryland a colonial government free from the religious persecutions he had known—one "securely beyond the reach of oaths . . . ."[5]

When our Constitution was adopted, the desire to put the people "securely beyond the reach" of religious test oaths brought about the inclusion in Article VI of that document of a provision that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Article VI supports the accuracy of our observation in Girouard v. United States, 328 U. S. 61, 69, that "[t]he test oath is abhorrent to our tradition." Not satisfied, however, with Article VI and other guarantees in the original Constitution, the First Congress proposed and the States very shortly thereafter 492*492 adopted our Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment.[6]

That Amendment broke new constitutional ground in the protection it sought to afford to freedom of religion, speech, press, petition and assembly.

Since prior cases in this Court have thoroughly explored and documented the history behind the First Amendment, the reasons for it, and the scope of the religious freedom it protects, we need not cover that ground again.[7] What was said in our prior cases we think controls our decision here. In Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296, 303-304, we said:
"The First Amendment declares that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The Fourteenth Amendment has rendered the legislatures of the states as incompetent as Congress to enact such laws. . . . Thus the Amendment embraces two concepts, —freedom to believe and freedom to act. The first is absolute but, in the nature of things, the second cannot be."
Later we decided Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U. S. 1, and said this at pages 15 and 16:
"The `establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor 493*493 the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. (except atheism et al) Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect `a wall of separation between church and State.' "
While there were strong dissents in the Everson case, they did not challenge the Court's interpretation of the First Amendment's coverage as being too broad, but thought the Court was applying that interpretation too narrowly to the facts of that case. Not long afterward, in Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U. S. 203, we were urged to repudiate as dicta the above-quoted Everson interpretation of the scope of the First Amendment's coverage. We declined to do this, but instead strongly reaffirmed what had been said in Everson, calling attention to the fact that both the majority and the minority in Everson had agreed on the principles declared in this part of the Everson opinion. And a concurring opinion in McCollum, written by MR. JUSTICE FRANKFURTER and joined by the other Everson dissenters, said this:
"We are all agreed that the First and Fourteenth Amendments have a secular reach far more penetrating 494*494 in the conduct of Government than merely to forbid an `established church.'. . . We renew our conviction that `we have staked the very existence of our country on the faith that complete separation between the state and religion is best for the state and best for religion.' "[8]
The Maryland Court of Appeals thought, and it is argued here, that this Court's later holding and opinion in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U. S. 306, had in part repudiated the statement in the Everson opinion quoted above and previously reaffirmed in McCollum. But the Court's opinion in Zorach specifically stated: "We follow the McCollum case." 343 U. S., at 315. Nothing decided or written in Zorach lends support to the idea that the Court there intended to open up the way for government, state or federal, to restore the historically and constitutionally discredited policy of probing religious beliefs by test oaths or limiting public offices to persons who have, or perhaps more properly profess to have, a belief in some particular kind of religious concept.[9] 495*495

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers,[10] and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.[11] In upholding the State's religious test for public office the highest court of Maryland said:
"The petitioner is not compelled to believe or disbelieve, under threat of punishment or other compulsion. True, unless he makes the declaration of belief he cannot hold public office in Maryland, but he is not compelled to hold office."
The fact, however, that a person is not compelled to hold public office cannot possibly be an excuse for barring him 496*496 from office by state-imposed criteria forbidden by the Constitution. This was settled by our holding in Wieman v. Updegraff, 344 U. S. 183.

We there pointed out that whether or not "an abstract right to public employment exists," Congress could not pass a law providing " `. . . that no federal employee shall attend Mass or take any active part in missionary work.' "[12] This Maryland religious test for public office unconstitutionally invades the appellant's freedom of belief and religion and therefore cannot be enforced against him.

The judgment of the Court of Appeals of Maryland is accordingly reversed and the cause is remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion. Reversed and remanded. MR. JUSTICE FRANKFURTER and MR. JUSTICE HARLAN concur in the result. [1]

Appellant also claimed that the State's test oath requirement violates the provision of Art. VI of the Federal Constitution that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Because we are reversing the judgment on other grounds, we find it unnecessary to consider appellant's contention that this provision applies to state as well as federal offices. [2] 223 Md. 49, 162 A. 2d 438.

Appellant's alternative contention that this test violates the Maryland Constitution also was rejected by the state courts. [3] See, e. g., I Stokes, Church and State in the United States, 358-446. See also cases cited, note 7, infra. [4] The letter from the Virginia Council to the King's Privy Council is quoted in Hanley, Their Rights and Liberties (Newman Press 1959), 65, as follows: "According to the instructions from your Lordship and the usual course held in this place, we tendered the oaths of supremacy and allegiance to his Lordship[;] [Baltimore] and some of his followers, who making profession of the Romish Religion, utterly refused to take the same. . . . His Lordship then offered to take this oath, a copy whereof is included . . . but we could not imagine that so much latitude was left for us to decline from the prescribed form, so strictly exacted and so well justified and defended by the pen of our late sovereign, Lord King James of happy memory. . . . Among the many blessings and favors for which we are bound to bless God . . . there is none whereby it hath been made more happy than in the freedom of our Religion . . . and that no papists have been suffered to settle their abode amongst us. . . ." Of course this was long before Madison's great Memorial and Remonstrance and the enactment of the famous Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty, discussed in our opinion in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U. S. 1, 11-13. [5] Hanley, op. cit., supra, p. 65. [6]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." [7] See, e. g., the opinions of the Court and also the concurring and dissenting opinions in Reynolds v. United States, 98 U. S. 145; Davis v. Beason, 133 U. S. 333; Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U. S. 296; West Virginia State Bd. of Education v. Barnette, 319 U. S. 624; Fowler v. Rhode Island, 345 U. S. 67; Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U. S. 1; Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U. S. 203; McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U. S. 420. [8] 333 U. S., at 213, 232. Later, in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U. S. 306, 322,

MR. JUSTICE FRANKFURTER stated in dissent that "[t]he result in the McCollum case . . . was based on principles that received unanimous acceptance by this Court, barring only a single vote." [9] In one of his famous letters of "a Landholder," published in December 1787, Oliver Ellsworth, a member of the Federal Constitutional Convention and later Chief Justice of this Court, included among his strong arguments against religious test oaths the following statement: "In short, test-laws are utterly ineffectual: they are no security at all; because men of loose principles will, by an external compliance, evade them. If they exclude any persons, it will be honest men, men of principle, who will rather suffer an injury, than act contrary to the dictates of their consciences. . . ." Quoted in Ford, Essays on the Constitution of the United States, 170. See also 4 Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, 193. [10]

In discussing Article VI in the debate of the North Carolina Convention on the adoption of the Federal Constitution, James Iredell, later a Justice of this Court, said: ". . . t is objected that the people of America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all, <--as I have shown and it remains undisputed that having no religion at all is impossible for any educated person) and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?" And another delegate pointed out that Article VI "leaves religion on the solid foundation of its own inherent validity, without any connection with temporal authority; and no kind of oppression can take place." 4 Elliot, op. cit., supra, at 194, 200. [11] Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others. See Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia, 101 U. S. App. D. C. 371, 249 F. 2d 127; Fellowship of Humanity v. County of Alameda, 153 Cal. App. 2d 673, 315 P. 2d 394; II Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences 293; 4 Encyclopaedia Britannica (1957 ed.) 325-327; 21 id., at 797; Archer, Faiths Men Live By (2d ed. revised by Purinton), 120-138, 254-313; 1961 World Almanac 695, 712; Year Book of American Churches for 1961, at 29, 47. [12] 344 U. S., at 191-192, quoting from United Public Workers v. Mitchell, 330 U. S. 75, 100.



But it is, the state is atheist!










HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 6:58:31 PM)

This first bit is sort of a general response, sparked by the fact that almost all of Pam's reply was focused on the exact meaning of words and how some people might object to it being used the way I did.

I spent many hours disputing the meaning of words the other night, I'm not going to again. If some people want to insist that 'religious" only means the first definition, I don't care, they are simply looking for something to object to because they have a bone to pick with the concept that atheism is just another belief regarding matters of religion. Those arguing what is and isn't a belief are, again, just nit picking. I'm not going to engage them, as far as I'm concerned, unless I have grossly misused a word, I don't care if somebody objects to it, nor will I defend my choice of words, I have used them according to common usage of Ontario, if it differs elsewhere, I really don't care.

Now, to move beyond circular semantic arguments
The really important thing I spotted was the following:
quote:

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.
That is irrelevant, from a Constitutional point of view the fact that it can is the only thing that matters.




Kirata -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 7:48:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Tuesday, October 11, 2011 LAW OF THE LAND

NEWS OF THE DAY

The decision in this case was handed down August 19, 2005.

In other news, the current year is still 2011. [:D]

K.




Real0ne -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 9:21:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

This first bit is sort of a general response, sparked by the fact that almost all of Pam's reply was focused on the exact meaning of words and how some people might object to it being used the way I did.  (objection to the use has to be validated.)

I spent many hours disputing the meaning of words the other night, I'm not going to again. If some people want to insist that 'religious" only means the first definition, I don't care, they are simply looking for something to object to because they have a bone to pick with the concept that atheism is just another belief regarding matters of religion. Those arguing what is and isn't a belief are, again, just nit picking. I'm not going to engage them, as far as I'm concerned, unless I have grossly misused a word, I don't care if somebody objects to it, nor will I defend my choice of words, I have used them according to common usage of Ontario, if it differs elsewhere, I really don't care.  (Do they all use the word gay to describe a homosexual?)

Now, to move beyond circular semantic arguments
The really important thing I spotted was the following:
quote:

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.
That is irrelevant, from a Constitutional point of view the fact that it can is the only thing that matters.

It goes much deeper than that, right to the core of the meanings of the words and process however.  This subject requires more than just one word and it creates a process, it is the combination that forms the determination.



The problem of course with that approach and why people nit pick over words is because how do we communicate if we have no common understanding of the language we use to communicate?

What if I use the word Gay in this context:

Webster 1828
quote:

GAY, a.

    1. Merry; airy; jovial; sportive; frolicksome. It denotes more life and animation than cheerful.

    Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay.

    2. Fine; showy; as a gay dress.

    3. Inflamed or merry with liquor; intoxicated; a vulgar use of the word in America.

    GAY, n. An ornament. [Not used.]  


and you automatically translate and interpret the word to mean this.

Oxford today:
quote:

gay(gay)

Pronunciation:/gā/
adjective (gayer, gayest)

   1 (of a person, especially a man) homosexual
   2 lighthearted and carefree
   3 informal foolish

noun

   a homosexual, especially a man.

Derivatives

gayness
noun


Like the movie we would have a failure to communicate.

In fact most bitter arguments out here are failure to communicate IMO.



Then you quoted this:

quote:

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.


First off its not a fact and unfortunately no one quotes the original and I did not find it anywhere in the thread.

Since I do not know where it came from I cannot examine how they come to that conclusion but on its face it looks like it defies the most appropriate and applicable definitions of several words as I have put forth and the process that distinguishes precisely what is is and how it applies.

The naked statement with out an outline of how it was concluded frankly is meaningless.

From my research it appears to be impossible to define within the boundaries of the meanings of the words used to describe atheism as anything BUT a religion.

Without meanings for words there is no point in discussing anything as there would be no conclusion that could ever be derived much less agreed upon.

Note that no one has even attempted much less effectively refuted the system that I have laid out for the definitions usage and application of the words required to make such determination in post 302 .

Words are critically important.





gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 9:33:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
quote:

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.
That is irrelevant, from a Constitutional point of view the fact that it can is the only thing that matters.


What i meant by that is religion can be defined as "not atheism", which IS relevant from a Constitutional point of view. 

ETA: Whether atheism can, or can't, be considered a religion or religious philosophy depends on exactly how you define those terms, and there are various legitimate definitions.  The semantics makes a difference.

pam




xssve -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 10:14:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

you're calling religious belief and a belief about religion the same thing
Alright, I can see where my choice of wording has caused the problem. If you prefer the wording "a belief about religion" <or to be more precise I would propose "a belief about a religious question or issue">, then that is fine by me, it does not change my proposal nor my conclusion, namely that the court was correct in ruling that for the purposes of 1st amendment protections, atheism is equivalent to any other religion, because it is a belief about a religious matter.

Remember, if it is not, then atheism is not protected, and the states are free, depending on the wording of their individual constitutions, to pass laws that restrict, penalize, or discriminate against atheists and atheism. I am surprised that atheists are not cheering this decision.

Well, I can accept for the sake of argument that it's a belief equivalent to a religious belief, which is that they are both philosophies, but I maintainthat there is a distinction between a religious philosophy and any other type of philosophy, a religious belief implies a religion, you can't say "religious belief" without dragging religion into it, or you would have said, "spiritual belief", which is a word we use to describe religious type beliefs that are unpopular or vague, and not represented by an established and authoritarian institution, which is typically, in empirical terms, a political institution in a mask of spirituality - and politics is usually about forcing a particular philosophy on others.

In that sense, atheism could be described as the state religion under the Soviet without going entirely off the map, since nothing else was allowed, but it still doesn't make atheism a religion in general terms, a religion, I think among other things, requires a Shaman or Shamans of some sort, and atheism doesn't have Shamans, it has curmudgeons and cynics.

Religion has no shortage of those either, of course, but the difference is that in religion they usually hide behind a facade of self serving sanctimony.

It impresses the rubes: religion has authority - philosophy just advances an argument.




xssve -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 10:22:16 PM)

Also, religion is not the only form of protected speech, we also have freedom of assembly, which technically, would have to include say... BDSM.

It's a just weird right now, there are a lot of ambitions riding on the religion bus, and a lot of angst and dismay over their loss of political stature and authority - they had everybody by the balls not so long ago, and they still have a tight grip on a lot of short and curlies, they still pull a lot of strings.

I'll have to read the decision I guess, no telling what their motivation here was, religious organizations get a lot of preferential treatment in prisons, they love a captive audience.

And by "religious organizations" here, I mean largely evangelical Christian organizations, and everybody likes to go to services, there are perqs.




Real0ne -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 11:40:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
quote:

The fact that atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy", is exactly what all the fuss is about.
That is irrelevant, from a Constitutional point of view the fact that it can is the only thing that matters.


What i meant by that is religion can be defined as "not atheism", which IS relevant from a Constitutional point of view. 

ETA: Whether atheism can, or can't, be considered a religion or religious philosophy depends on exactly how you define those terms, and there are various legitimate definitions.  The semantics makes a difference.

pam



The larger issue with that statement is that every other word in the dictionary can be defined as "NOT atheism".

or

atheism can also be defined as NOT being "a religion or religious philosophy"

I noticed problems with that wiki definition too.

quote:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. 


An atheist wrote that, you can tell because atheism is not rejection of belief, but rejection of the existence.

By adding the second tier they attempt to isolate themselves from being a religion.  Sneeky wabbits!  Of course they are busted when we go to the roots and get rid of all that chaff correctly stating it as:

quote:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of the existence of deities. 
.


Likewise when you go to the roots of the words and process you still wind up with a belief, or non-belief of existence or believe of nonexistence LOL  semantics.




Real0ne -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/13/2011 11:45:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

you're calling religious belief and a belief about religion the same thing
Alright, I can see where my choice of wording has caused the problem. If you prefer the wording "a belief about religion" <or to be more precise I would propose "a belief about a religious question or issue">, then that is fine by me, it does not change my proposal nor my conclusion, namely that the court was correct in ruling that for the purposes of 1st amendment protections, atheism is equivalent to any other religion, because it is a belief about a religious matter.

Remember, if it is not, then atheism is not protected, and the states are free, depending on the wording of their individual constitutions, to pass laws that restrict, penalize, or discriminate against atheists and atheism. I am surprised that atheists are not cheering this decision.

Well, I can accept for the sake of argument that it's a belief equivalent to a religious belief, which is that they are both philosophies, but I maintainthat there is a distinction between a religious philosophy and any other type of philosophy, a religious belief implies a religion, you can't say "religious belief" without dragging religion into it, or you would have said, "spiritual belief", which is a word we use to describe religious type beliefs that are unpopular or vague, and not represented by an established and authoritarian institution, which is typically, in empirical terms, a political institution in a mask of spirituality - and politics is usually about forcing a particular philosophy on others.

In that sense, atheism could be described as the state religion under the Soviet without going entirely off the map, since nothing else was allowed, but it still doesn't make atheism a religion in general terms, a religion, I think among other things, requires a Shaman or Shamans of some sort, and atheism doesn't have Shamans, it has curmudgeons and cynics.

Religion has no shortage of those either, of course, but the difference is that in religion they usually hide behind a facade of self serving sanctimony.

It impresses the rubes: religion has authority - philosophy just advances an argument.



Well I ahve concluded that the widest sense of religion is a set of beliefs that one accepts as correct and acts upon or governs themselves in accordance with.

For instance an atheist will live day to day based on and act according to the conclusions made with that respect, as would a christian or any other person all whom have their own set of beliefs that created their religion.




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