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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 10:06:57 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

That's the reason I stick with the Oxford
No, you stick with it because it fits your argument. Try these.
Merriam-Webster:
quote:

2: a: a disbelief in the existence of deity. b: the doctrine that there is no deity
Dictionary.com:
quote:

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
thefreedictionary.com:
quote:

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
Cambridge Dictionary:
quote:

someone who believes that God or gods do not exist
Webster-dictionary.com <I think its a copy of the 1913 edition>:
quote:

1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English Online:
quote:

the belief that God does not exist
yourdictionary.com:
quote:

the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist


I could go on, but as you can see, there are a multitude of online dictionaries that define the word in such a way that your argument simply doesn't hold water.

Also, please note the appearance of the word "doctrine" in these definitions, a word that has been used to differentiate between religion and other philosophies



Since joining this section of the boards, I have been reading alot about atheism from Cline. He says that the dictionaries just dont do atheism justice as a definition.

Do you agree?

_____________________________

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 10:08:38 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Quoted so SMM will see it, because, as far as I know he hasn't hidden this account yet.

Thank you for the information, hidden then as well. Have a nice day.


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 382
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 10:09:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Eventually people will learn that anyone who argues with Spanish man here will be ignored.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 383
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 10:10:42 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
As far as I can tell in reading the ruling the court doesn't seem to agree that it's a religion. This is one of those cases of a news article going for sensationalism over accuracy. They seem to refer to it as nonreligion.....well maybe it would be easier to just quote another section:

"The Establishment Clause itself says only that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls “nonreligion.” In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as “the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.”"

Really, the ruling is an interesting read and not at all like the op's article presented it as. I'd encourage those of us in this discussion to give it a look.

I am not that much interested on the ruling, I must confess. But thank you for quoting that part.


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 384
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 10:48:17 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

What is an atheist vs an agnostic?

Atheist: Claims god doesn't exist.
Agnostic: Claims to not know, or that it can't be known.
Hard atheist: Atheist.
Soft atheist: An essentially meaningless term made up so that agnostics and irreligious people could be classified as atheists in order to further a particular agenda.

I hope that clears things up.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 11:01:30 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

He says that the dictionaries just dont do atheism justice as a definition.

Do you agree?
No, not really. Any one of the definitions is fine, until somebody tries to twist it to prove a point, that's when things get sticky. What I do with contentious words is I look them up in a whole bunch of dictionaries, and get the common theme of the various definitions and ignore the subtle nuances of the precise wording of any given definition.

Basically, the dictionary game is like quoting scripture, if you look long enough, you'll find a definition that can be beaten and twisted into a meaning that can be used to back your position. As far as I'm concerned, if a proposal is based on the precise wording of a given definition, like SMM's, and it doesn't work equally well using another definition, then it probably isn't correct.

I have come to the conclusion that there's no real need for a precise definition of every word, we all speak English, and we all know what the words "atheist", "religion", and "belief" mean. At times, its helpful if a given person explains exactly how they are using a word, but we don't need to nail down a precise definition we all agree on. Unless of course some guy from Spain decides to interject himself into the discussion.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 11:05:34 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

Thank you for the information, hidden then as well. Have a nice day.
Shhhhh. Nobody tell him that we are contemplating doing a complete reworking of all our accounts, closing most of the existing ones and creating brand new ones to better reflect our domestic situation. 

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Profile   Post #: 387
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 11:17:13 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Any one of the definitions is fine, until somebody tries to twist it to prove a point


I get the feeling that is what many think I am doing about the word "belief", which is far from the case. I would prefer to take the stigma out of that word for the sake of discussions. But I dont forsee that happening.

Here is what Cline said in an interview...

"The arguments used by atheists for these errors are about the same as those used by theists-which is not a surprise because I think that they are both working from common cultural misconceptions, in particular an evangelical culture in which all sorts of misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture are operative. Offering the dictionary definition of atheism is popular, of course, but always involves either a highly abridged pocket dictionary or a willful disregard of anything in the definition that doesn't fit with one's preconceptions.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/611271/an_interview_with_austin_cline_atheist_pg7.html?cat=9

I find that to be mostly true, as evidenced on these boards. Something else I find to be true is that any time either side is questioned, they go on the immediate defence and any dialogue with anyone who doesnt agree or understand someone's position is immediately shut down.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/15/2011 11:19:07 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 11:57:55 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

"The arguments used by atheists for these errors are about the same as those used by theists-which is not a surprise because I think that they are both working from common cultural misconceptions, in particular an evangelical culture in which all sorts of misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture are operative. Offering the dictionary definition of atheism is popular, of course, but always involves either a highly abridged pocket dictionary or a willful disregard of anything in the definition that doesn't fit with one's preconceptions.
In other words, he wants to redefine the word to suit his purposes, and is dismissing anybody who doesn't see it his way as falling prey to "misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture". Lucky for us, Mr. Cline, the self-appointed expert, has come along to set us all straight and show us the error of our ways, to reveal to us the truth about "science, philosophy, religion, and culture", that only he sees.

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Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 12:42:09 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

And i think it's quite a stretch to say that atheism is a religion.


And I don't, I think it is perfectly obvious that it can be considered a religion. So to my way of thinking, it fits perfectly within the parameters in the 1st Amendment as written. I don't see any stretching of the wording here, in fact, to deny atheism said protection would be interpreting the wording beyond its meaning in my eyes. Nothing said on this thread has in any way altered my opinion or legitimately challenged my original premise, so as far I am concerned, it still stands.


Of course strong atheism CAN be considered a religion.  It's just that, what is obvious to me is that it's also legitimate NOT to consider it one.  Let me ask you this.  Would it be safe to say that you do not consider irreligion (what i call agnosticism) to be a religion, or even a belief?  Do you believe that the 1st Amendment also protects the irreligious?

pam


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:06:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

And i think it's quite a stretch to say that atheism is a religion.


And I don't, I think it is perfectly obvious that it can be considered a religion. So to my way of thinking, it fits perfectly within the parameters in the 1st Amendment as written. I don't see any stretching of the wording here, in fact, to deny atheism said protection would be interpreting the wording beyond its meaning in my eyes. Nothing said on this thread has in any way altered my opinion or legitimately challenged my original premise, so as far I am concerned, it still stands.


Of course strong atheism CAN be considered a religion.  It's just that, what is obvious to me is that it's also legitimate NOT to consider it one.  Let me ask you this.  Would it be safe to say that you do not consider irreligion (what i call agnosticism) to be a religion, or even a belief?  Do you believe that the 1st Amendment also protects the irreligious?

pam



All the 1st does is protect EVERYONE from establishment of a Federal religion, so to that extent it protects the religious, agnostics and atheists.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:34:41 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

All the 1st does is protect EVERYONE from establishment of a Federal religion, so to that extent it protects the religious, agnostics and atheists.


Not if atheism isnt a religion!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:37:05 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Eventually people will learn that anyone who argues with Spanish man here will be ignored.


SOP for atheists!

Everyone should quote everyone unless its the post directly under so we can keep track of who said what and what is being referenced.

It gets confusing when people do not quote.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 393
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:40:15 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Quoted so SMM will see it, because, as far as I know he hasn't hidden this account yet.

Thank you for the information, hidden then as well. Have a nice day.




HAHA!

Now I think that everyone should be quoted to put this to a test to see how long it takes before he has EVERYONE on iggy!  LMAO

Funny!



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:43:11 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Thank you for the information, hidden then as well. Have a nice day.
Shhhhh. Nobody tell him that we are contemplating doing a complete reworking of all our accounts, closing most of the existing ones and creating brand new ones to better reflect our domestic situation. 




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:48:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

All the 1st does is protect EVERYONE from establishment of a Federal religion, so to that extent it protects the religious, agnostics and atheists.


Not if atheism isnt a religion!



Repeat: It protects EVERYONE from the establishment of a Federal religion. It doesnt matter one whit if atheism is a religion or not.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:52:33 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
In other words, he wants to redefine the word to suit his purposes, and is dismissing anybody who doesn't see it his way as falling prey to "misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture". Lucky for us, Mr. Cline, the self-appointed expert, has come along to set us all straight and show us the error of our ways, to reveal to us the truth about "science, philosophy, religion, and culture", that only he sees.


No. He didn't DEFINE (or "redefine") atheism at all, much less did he say anything to indicate that defining it one way or other would suit his purposes (whatever you imagine those purposes to be.) What he said was that the meaning of the word "atheism" is much more complicated than the definition given in many dictionaries, and that failing to understand THAT is a serious mistake.

Incidently, do you believe that you are NOT behaving as a self appointed expert who chooses the definition of the word that suits your purposes, and then dismisses everyone who doesn't see it your way as either erroneous or trying to twist words around to prove a point?

pam


< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 10/15/2011 2:04:21 PM >

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[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

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Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:54:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Eventually people will learn that anyone who argues with Spanish man here will be ignored.


SOP for atheists!

Everyone should quote everyone unless its the post directly under so we can keep track of who said what and what is being referenced.

It gets confusing when people do not quote.




Spanish man should have given you a clue.... and the fact that I replied to his post.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:55:14 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

"The arguments used by atheists for these errors are about the same as those used by theists-which is not a surprise because I think that they are both working from common cultural misconceptions, in particular an evangelical culture in which all sorts of misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture are operative. Offering the dictionary definition of atheism is popular, of course, but always involves either a highly abridged pocket dictionary or a willful disregard of anything in the definition that doesn't fit with one's preconceptions.
In other words, he wants to redefine the word to suit his purposes, and is dismissing anybody who doesn't see it his way as falling prey to "misconceptions about science, philosophy, religion, and culture". Lucky for us, Mr. Cline, the self-appointed expert, has come along to set us all straight and show us the error of our ways, to reveal to us the truth about "science, philosophy, religion, and culture", that only he sees.



Before we go any further, did you read the article? or just the snip I posted.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/15/2011 1:57:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

All the 1st does is protect EVERYONE from establishment of a Federal religion, so to that extent it protects the religious, agnostics and atheists.


Not if atheism isnt a religion!



Repeat: It protects EVERYONE from the establishment of a Federal religion. It doesnt matter one whit if atheism is a religion or not.


The government IS atheist!

It protects no one from institutionalized atheism.

Atheists running the government and courts interpreted establish to mean do not acknowledge any religion, meaning religion is non existent and they created one of their own.

They use their religious dogma (policy) to dictate how I must live and what I can and cannot do.    If I want to get penicillin from the drug store I should have the ability to walk in and get it over the counter.  Not pay some skimming agency fucktard doctor for an appointment to write a scrip.

The mob "believes" that <insert gubafia dogma here> must be adhered to by everyone in the nation.  

So lets statutize it and tax them for our services, (guns) to enforce it!

as I stated a few pages ago, the only function of government should be "advisory" to the people (with some but FEW exceptions) in a truly self self governed society.

The hoax being that self governed means the ability to choose your atheist ruler ever 4 years.

Now that atheism IS officially determined to be a religion things can change for the better.

Rather than all this superficial penal colony police state that we live under bullshit life can get back to injury in person or equity, the ancient laws of man.

Otherwise I am going to start suing the state because ugly people are fucking up my view.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/15/2011 2:07:45 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 400
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