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RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 10:50:59 PM

SoulAlloy

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From: Preston, UK
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An interesting idea, I suspect my graph would change almost daily :p

This is the only bit I disagreed with (and I did notice the disclaimer so is just food for thought rather than an attack)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

When is somebody "in" BDSM?

When her "likes" cover a significantly bigger area of BDSM, as the average of the population of her culture.

By that definition, should BDSM become the norm then it is no longer BDSM. Once you cross cultures too what would be defined as BDSM in one culture would be the norm in another.

(I'm also wondering if a maths fetish is cropping up on these boards :p)

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Post #: 21

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 10:54:22 PM

littlewonder

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cringe...when math becomes a regular fetish around here is the moment I'm outta here!

Runs for the hills at the very mention of math

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Post #: 22

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:02:46 PM

SpanishMatMaster

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Snort
*** just sayin that 3D is too limiting ***

Every model is an abstraction, and every abstraction looses information. That is true. The only perfect model of reality is reality.
That said, if you analyse WHY people like diapers, I think you will find many aspects in the model already, and you can positionate the diapers in that space.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
Are you asking each of us to point out where we would fall on your scale, or are you just wanting us to imagine it for ourselves?

I am showing the model I use for the case that anybody finds it useful or interesting. This thread is the result of a question in a PM about what is BDSM. This is also my answer to that question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
I found it hard to care whether someone might be regarded as *in* bdsm or not.

Understandable. You may want to ask the people here who are showing care about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoulAlloy
By that definition, should BDSM become the norm then it is no longer BDSM.

And why not? The official definition of "paraphylia" in psychology is culture-dependant.
Think about the European middle ages. The woman was supposed to be submissive to the man. Some women were happy with that and would have considered their man weak or feminine if they did not get slapped from time to time ("My husband hits me the normal way" was a common sentence). Was this DBSM or just being a "good wife"?
(Not that I defend such morality, please. Beware the strawman.)

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/12/2011 11:05:36 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:07:48 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
grapgh that

I can. It matches in the graph. Can I use math? I cannot draw here, and where I can draw, I cannot post here :D .

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 24

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:09:54 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
you'd need another axis for sensation play

Sensation play without control is not in my personal (see discaimer) idea of BDSM. It is in the range of the things I like :p as I like also uniforms, for example, but they are not part of my BDSM kink, for me, in my conceptual universe :) .

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 25

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:11:49 PM

DeviantlyD

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Doesn't this belong in a person's journal? The OP isn't inviting discussion because he's disputing anything that goes against his "disclaimer" so it really shouldn't even be part of a discussion group.

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Post #: 26

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:21:01 PM

Snort

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Oh, I dunno, I kinda liked the concept. Discussing BDSM as a multidimensional space is somehow appealing in a sadistic sort of way...

Did I ever tell you my theory of mapping personalities to Venn diagrams? You would be impressed.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 27

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/12/2011 11:28:11 PM

DeviantlyD

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You're missing my point Snort...the OP isn't interested in fostering discussion, he's only interested in pontificating about his own interests and agenda without having anyone disagree with him. It's been a pattern for him.

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Post #: 28

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 1:53:34 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Snort
Did I ever tell you my theory of mapping personalities to Venn diagrams? You would be impressed.

Hum... in theory of the personality there have been a lot of work on this. My father was involved, as co-founder and former director of the European Journal of Personality, but also in his personal investigations. I suggest that you publish it there, if you have something interesting.
As for me, I think (after having consulted my mother, sexologist for 40 years, former director of the Institut für Therapieforschung IFT for Spain) that BDSM is much less studied, and that's the reason I tried to develop a model for my own. For my own use, actually :) . But somebody brought me to share it here.
For the personality, I frankly prefer to stick on the "big five". Still - thank you.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/13/2011 1:55:45 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 4:09:29 AM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

In which case you'd be somewhere up there on the masochistic side of the scale and he'd be somewhere directly opposite on the sadistic side of the same axis, and you'd both be a 0 on the power exchange axis. This graph is built for people like you; if there was an equivalence between d/s and s and m then there'd be no point putting them both on the same graph.

Both of you are saying he's wrong for saying the exact opposite of what he's actually saying. He's not saying that things are 'cut and dried' at all, or that there's any link between sadism and masochism.

Seriously, this isn't rocket science. I'd expect a teenager to understand the concept of a graph of three different variables - and the idea that putting those three variables into one graph isn't the same as saying they are all equivalent. Y'all are adults. If you're not comfortable with maths then fine, but don't go telling the guy he's wrong for saying something he's going out of his way to say the opposite of.

not really; they're saying he's wrong for using it to judge how "into" BDSM someone is. didn't we just have a thread here not too long ago where people argued that D/s shouldn't even be included in the BDSM acronym?

the graph works easily, yeah. but the "how into BDSM you are based on said graph" (not "how similar are you to me" or something else less definite) is a silly conclusion. especially when the graph only caters to his particular viewpoints (as he says on page 2, about how it's only about what he likes).

again with the hypotheticals; there are people who are all over the map on their likes/kinks/whatever, but who are totally closeted. then there are people who only really like being rope bottoms who are all over the place with their names and faces -- which one is more "into" BDSM?
the conclusion the graph draws is a fallacy.

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 10/13/2011 4:25:35 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 4:38:47 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
(as he says on page 2, about how it's only about what he likes).

Sorry... where do I say this? Can you quote, please?
I have the impression that i said exactly the opposite, this is why I am asking. I have the impression that I have said that there are things I like which are not in the graph. And of course, the other way around, things in the graph which I do not like.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/13/2011 4:48:04 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 8:42:44 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

not really; they're saying he's wrong for using it to judge how "into" BDSM someone is.

No they aren't. This is what DesFIP said:

quote:

Why do you assume that all power relationships include s & m? They don't. There is no intrinsic correlation between power and kink.

And then more on the same theme. Nothing to do with what makes people 'into' BDSM at all.

And this is what BurntKitty said:

quote:

Agreed. And then there are those of us (my honey & I, for example) who don't have or want a power/control dynamic. All we want is the s & m. He likes giving pain, I like receiving. It works for us. He's not dominant, I am not submissive.

OP- Things aren't cut & dried. (Unless we're talking cutting designs or needles, of course.)

I guess that last line could be relevant to what you're saying, but it's not clear and if that's what she's saying then why say the other stuff first?

DesFIP in particular is accusing the OP of making assumptions that are exactly the opposite of what the model is built to say.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 10/13/2011 8:44:08 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 9:37:47 AM

insertclevername

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Joined: 8/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

What is, then, BDSM?

Well, first define vanilla. Vanilla is a ball around (0, 0, 0).

BDSM is the rest.

When is somebody "in" BDSM?

When her "likes" cover a significantly bigger area of BDSM, as the average of the population of her culture.

Best regards.

I am not sure why some people have such a strong need to try to put other people into firm categories. My personal attitude about this is: Who gives a shit. Individuals will work out the details of their relationship with each other.

The only purpose of terms is to give a framework for people to have a discussion, but no one is going to consult a graph to figure out what BDSM and vanilla are.

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Post #: 33

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 9:44:18 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: insertclevername

I am not sure why some people have such a strong need to try to put other people into firm categories.

Jeez. I started writing to agree with you - then realised that you weren't talking about most of the respondents to the OP, but the OP himself.

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Post #: 34

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 10:00:59 AM

SoulAlloy

Posts: 2106
Joined: 8/23/2009
From: Preston, UK
Status: offline

quote:

And why not? The official definition of "paraphylia" in psychology is culture-dependant.
Think about the European middle ages. The woman was supposed to be submissive to the man. Some women were happy with that and would have considered their man weak or feminine if they did not get slapped from time to time ("My husband hits me the normal way" was a common sentence). Was this DBSM or just being a "good wife"?
(Not that I defend such morality, please. Beware the strawman.)

I would say if she gets a sexual thrill out of it then she is into BDSM. Just coz it's the hypothetical norm doesn't make it any less valid that she has a masochistic streak.

Incidentally, I keep seeing this strawman thing, what does it refer to?

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

Host of the Preston (UK) Munch, 2nd Wednesday each month

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 35

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 10:48:09 AM

SpanishMatMaster

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoulAlloy
Incidentally, I keep seeing this strawman thing, what does it refer to?

Well, as you like. I prefer to make it culture-dependent, but who cares, you can use the model establishing more stable limits :) It is ok. Use it as you like and if you like.
BTW... your tastes may change from day to day, but I would swear most people have stable averages. One day I want sushi, one day I do not want sushi, but in general, over the years, you can see that I mostly like sushi.

Strawman: Changing the argument of another person to attack it. An example...
- Well, Stalin killed millions in Ukraine, and...
- Yes, you are saying that communism is horrible, but what about capitalism? eh? eh? How many people...?
See? The first guy did not say at all that communism is horrible. The other guy "built a strawman" saying it, and then attacked the strawman.
This is the "strawman fallacy". Whis is being intensively used here by people I prefer not to answer to, as they actually agree with me (with what I actually say, that is).

Best regards.

(in reply to SoulAlloy)

Post #: 36

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 2:09:11 PM

avena

Posts: 80
Joined: 12/4/2010
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quote:

(I'm also wondering if a maths fetish is cropping up on these boards :p)

Oooohhhhh....I LIKE the idea of a math fetish. But then, I admit that I do get a little wet sometimes when I'm doing my math homework. I'm weird like that.

In response to the OP...I completely love the idea of the 3D graphical representation! It definitely resonates for me, and allows for some good generalizations. It's also very adaptable and the axes can be adjusted dependant on the individual reflected.

I think I might have to go draw myself a Cartesian co-ordinate plane and see where I fall on my own scale.

(in reply to SoulAlloy)

Post #: 37

RE: A 3D model of BDSM - 10/13/2011 7:49:06 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: avena

quote:

(I'm also wondering if a maths fetish is cropping up on these boards :p)

Oooohhhhh....I LIKE the idea of a math fetish. But then, I admit that I do get a little wet sometimes when I'm doing my math homework. I'm weird like that.
In response to the OP...I completely love the idea of the 3D graphical representation! It definitely resonates for me, and allows for some good generalizations. It's also very adaptable and the axes can be adjusted dependant on the individual reflected.
I think I might have to go draw myself a Cartesian co-ordinate plane and see where I fall on my own scale.

I am glad :) . And yes, of course, adapt it as you like.
Important for me was that the axis were orthogonal, for example "control" and "submission" would have been, at least from a statistical PoV, too dependent on each other. The advantage of choosing only 3 is visualization, but of course the needed simplification means that some activities are only reflected in their projection to this three dimensions, even if they have actually more.
It would be also interesting to see the limits of every dimension. I do not think that they are unlimited.
Have fun! :)

(in reply to avena)

Post #: 38

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