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999? - 10/13/2011 10:13:08 AM   
tazzygirl


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If this is posted elsewhere, let me know.

Seems not everything is as peachy as Cain wanted us to believe.

“9-9-9 will pass, and it is not the price of pizza because, it has been well-studied and well-developed… The problem with that analysis [that it will not raise enough revenue] is that it is incorrect. The reason it's incorrect is because they start with assumptions that we don't make. Remember, 9- 9-9 plan throws out the current tax code. ... Now, what 9-9-9 does, it expands the base. When you expand the base, we can arrive at the lowest possible rate, which is 9-9-9.”

— Herman Cain, Washington Post-Bloomberg debate, October 11, 2011

A family of four making $50,000 a year “are still going to have some money left over.”

— Cain, on MSNBC, October 12, 2011

It almost sounds like something out of the movie “Dave,” in which the accidental president enlists his accountant friend, Murray Blum, to help him figure out the federal budget.

During Tuesday’s Washington Post-Bloomberg debate, Herman Cain, the former chief executive of Godfather’s Pizza, named Rich Lowrie of Cleveland as “my lead economist” who helped develop Cain’s signature “9-9-9” plan for overhauling the federal tax system. “He is an economist, and he has worked in the business of wealth creation most of his career,” Cain said.

Actually, according to Lowrie’s Linked-In profile, he has a bachelor’s degree in accountancy from Case Western Reserve University, not economics. Lowrie, in an e-mail, said he did not consider himself an economist, just “senior economic advisor” to the Cain campaign. Donor information maintained by Opensecrets.org shows he has donated $1,500 to Cain in 2010 and 2011, but also contributed $2,300 to Mitt Romney in his first run for the presidency in 2007.

Okay, so Cain may have exaggerated the qualifications of his economic guru. But he has forcefully defended his ‘9-9-9’ plan, both during Tuesday night’s debate and on MSNBC’s “Daily Rundown” on Wednesday. Many readers have asked us to examine the plan and explain it, so let’s take it for a test drive.

The Facts

The “9-9-9” label is actually a bit of misnomer. Cain would toss out much of the current federal tax code and replace it, eventually and only temporarily, with three taxes — a 9 percent income tax, a 9 percent corporate tax and a 9 percent federal sales tax. On paper, the first two look like cuts, because payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare (now nearly 15 percent, including corporate contributions) would be repealed. The sales tax would be new, on top of existing state sales taxes.

But note that we said the “9-9-9” would happen eventually — and then only temporarily. That’s because it is only the second step of a planned three-step process. The first step would cut individual and corporate tax rates to a top 25 percent rate (down from a current high of 35 percent). Then the final step would replace all of the taxes — even the 9s — with a national sales tax, known by proponents as a “Fair Tax.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/herman-cains-misleading-pitch-for-the-999-plan/2011/10/12/gIQAHszPgL_blog.html?hpid=z2

Thats just the intro folks... there is soooo much more. Needless to say, people need to read this

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:17:09 AM   
mnottertail


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Well that pissant beancounter has more education and experience with a bachelors in accounting than the darling of the right (summa come mediocre 9th grade) Milton Freidman, and they called him an economist.

BTW I think that was supposed to be 666......but they had to come up with a different moniker for obvious reasons.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/13/2011 10:19:50 AM >


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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:19:36 AM   
tolovetolaugh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


But note that we said the “9-9-9” would happen eventually — and then only temporarily. That’s because it is only the second step of a planned three-step process. The first step would cut individual and corporate tax rates to a top 25 percent rate (down from a current high of 35 percent). Then the final step would replace all of the taxes — even the 9s — with a national sales tax, known by proponents as a “Fair Tax.”



NOOOOOOOOOO
I like having things ring up for exactly what the stated price is in Delaware. That's just about the only good thing we have going for us!


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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:19:37 AM   
littlewonder


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all this time it was 666 we were worried about. They had it upside down!

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:21:00 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well that pissant beancounter has more education and experience with a bachelors in accounting than the darling of the right (summa come mediocre 9th grade) Milton Freidman, and they called him an economist.

BTW I think that was supposed to be 666......but they had to come up with a different moniker for obvious reasons.



LOL

I almost used 666 as part of the title!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:21:15 AM   
Lucylastic


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I have read a lot about this and to me it stinks.altho I waqs accused of not having my facts straight, many people STILL think therewill be no personal income tax, and I have no idea why
, paying ten percent on income and everything including food an medicine for the poor is really gonna fuck with them, especially those who NOW get a rebate or credit, the base may be broad, but it sure as hell aint gonna help those who need it.
Whats the "special" about the sales tax not being charged on "used" goods, thats a HUGE sinkhole right there, ripe for fraudused yachts, used cars, used houses, used gold, used diamonds, etc etc etc
this is gonna be goodwill for the real scum

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:23:05 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well that pissant beancounter has more education and experience with a bachelors in accounting than the darling of the right (summa come mediocre 9th grade) Milton Freidman, and they called him an economist.

BTW I think that was supposed to be 666......but they had to come up with a different moniker for obvious reasons.



LOL

I almost used 666 as part of the title!

Bachman sees the devil is in the details!!
bless her shes so speshul

_____________________________

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<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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Dont Hate Love

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:28:47 AM   
Owner59


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Just saw a poll putting Cain ahead of Mitt, into 1st place.

I predict he goes the way of Perry.As soon as folks get to know him,it`ll be back to Mitt,again......

That Mitt can`t seem to catch a break.....


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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:37:35 AM   
kalikshama


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*chortles*

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 10:52:24 AM   
mnottertail


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Oh its a fuckin soap opera, they could cut the shit now and nominate Romney for the loss, but they want the publicity, make it seem as though this is relevant....

So later they can drag out the old war horse jingoes.

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 11:13:16 AM   
Aylee


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Tazzy, here is an article that discusses some of the issues with getting the 999 to pass. I found it interesting, and you might as well.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2011/10/13/9-9-Nein-The-Herman-Cain-Mutiny.aspx#page1

Here is one issue:

quote:

Finally, without a specific constitutional amendment authorizing it, a federal sales tax on general purchases would get challenged by small-government federalists on principle. Unless the sale crosses state lines, it is difficult to see federal jurisdiction at the cash register for most transactions. Accepting that Congress can impose a sales tax on transactions at the local grocery store without a Constitutional amendment granting such authority would require conservatives to embrace a Wickard v Filburn philosophy of interstate commerce. Since a rejection of that philosophy is at the heart of conservative opposition to ObamaCare and its mandate, don’t expect conservatives to leap for joy at the thought of a new definition of interstate commerce that fits the final “nine” in Cain’s plan.



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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:14:55 PM   
StrangerThan


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The middle 9 of the equation is the killer, at least as far as I'm concerned. A 9 percent national sales tax would instantly drop buying power by 9 percent. To people just getting by, people on fixed incomes, people just above the getting by stage, that's going to be painful.

I'm sure it can be made more workable but the sales tax thing, along with how sales tax can easily incorporate a value added tax and that idea is beyond scary. Look at France if you want an example.

Besides, my mamma told me that anytime something looks too easy, and too simple, it probably is. In this case, it is. I don't like our tax code the way it is, but honestly, the fact is, tax revenue has to go up for the simple reason that even with efforts to control spending, it's going to rise.

The biggest sword sticking in the side of Republicans right now is their stance on taxes. You can argue what you want, but there's no heart and soul in it. And if you want the sword sticking in the side of Democrats, a good bit of it is tied to taxes too. There's a shitload of people scared to death that without Republicans to keep them in check, Democrats will fund every last thing that passes under their noses that someone cries about, and do it at the expense of the same people staring at Republicans asking, you won't increase taxes on million dollar people, but you're telling me I have to sacrifice more after contributing to this fucking system for 50 years?

Oh I know, someone will come along and post this president did this, and that one did that, when presidents and congress have flip-flopped between the two parties for the last 20 years. Assigning blame to one and excusing the other is wearing blinders on one side of your body.

The only truth in the tax equation is that you are going to spend more on them, one way or another. If it's not in income taxes, it will be in state or sales tax, or in fees, or in new toll roads, gasoline taxes.. something. It's either that or we're going to be like Greece, going broke and crying.





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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:19:59 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

If this is posted elsewhere, let me know.
Seems not everything is as peachy as Cain wanted us to believe.
“9-9-9 will pass, and it is not the price of pizza because, it has been well-studied and well-developed… The problem with that analysis [that it will not raise enough revenue] is that it is incorrect. The reason it's incorrect is because they start with assumptions that we don't make. Remember, 9- 9-9 plan throws out the current tax code. ... Now, what 9-9-9 does, it expands the base. When you expand the base, we can arrive at the lowest possible rate, which is 9-9-9.”


How many toppings can I get that pie with?



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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:27:14 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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ST,

I havent read the plan, I dont even know if its available in any kind of detail. If his rhetoric about it is true though , then the sales tax does not decrease the purchasing power of those just getting by, except (and it is admittedly a big exception) those who do not have earned income that is currently subject to payroll taxes and income taxes.

If the plan were ever to have any traction it would need to be higher rates offset by no sales tax on groceries and utilities and solve the problem for that group. I dont buy the "slippery slope" argument that was raised in the last debate. Adding a new tax while lowering others is subject to no more risk of future increases than the current dual income tax structure already is.

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:36:43 PM   
StrangerThan


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Part of the problem I have with it Willbe is there are too many unanswered questions. It's almost like Obama saying, pass this now when you don't really know what "this" is, nor what his second step will be. I'll admit, I'm not an accountant or a tax preparer, but when it comes to jumping ship from one to the other, I'd like a preview of what I'm getting into before I climb aboard. I'm kind of at that point with politicians where I've learned not to take their word for anything.

There are a lot of people who would support a change to the tax code. Flat taxes and fair taxes have been batted about for years. The idea of simplifying things is good. It's the details that suck.


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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:45:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Part of the problem I have with it Willbe is there are too many unanswered questions. It's almost like Obama saying, pass this now when you don't really know what "this" is, nor what his second step will be. I'll admit, I'm not an accountant or a tax preparer, but when it comes to jumping ship from one to the other, I'd like a preview of what I'm getting into before I climb aboard. I'm kind of at that point with politicians where I've learned not to take their word for anything.

There are a lot of people who would support a change to the tax code. Flat taxes and fair taxes have been batted about for years. The idea of simplifying things is good. It's the details that suck.



No disagreement with any of that. If Cain is really going to have any traction he's going to have to provide those details, and my suspicion is, like Ron Paul's rhetoric, easier said than done.

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 12:55:28 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Just saw a poll putting Cain ahead of Mitt, into 1st place.

I predict he goes the way of Perry.As soon as folks get to know him,it`ll be back to Mitt,again......

That Mitt can`t seem to catch a break.....

What's that that Flo and Eddie would suddenly shout in Zappa Shows
Coven!


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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 1:11:06 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
I havent read the plan, I dont even know if its available in any kind of detail. If his rhetoric about it is true though , then the sales tax does not decrease the purchasing power of those just getting by, except (and it is admittedly a big exception) those who do not have earned income that is currently subject to payroll taxes and income taxes.

If the plan were ever to have any traction it would need to be higher rates offset by no sales tax on groceries and utilities and solve the problem for that group. I dont buy the "slippery slope" argument that was raised in the last debate. Adding a new tax while lowering others is subject to no more risk of future increases than the current dual income tax structure already is.


There really isnt much to go on, with whats been released to be honest. The only folks supporting this are the ones that would vote for Mr. Cain regardless. This 9-9-9 plan is (for the moment) big on hype and small on actual mechanics/numbers. Cain supporters state it will work better for the country, but yet, as already stated, CANT 'put their money where their mouth is' on the subject'. The more 'guts' of this plan that are released, the less conservatives will be in favor of it. Can't explain why that statement is true, but they often arent the folks for 'new' stuff as it pertains to goverment.

The plan by itself now, will do more damage to the poor in the nation, and a 'freebie' to the rich. The thread 'Herman Cain' I explained how his previous 'Fair Tax Act' failed to take reality into the equation. In that bill, he tried to say the total taxes for people would be 23%. The numbers were based entirely on 2007 economics and not 2011 (as much has changed in those four years). Several independent think tanks took those numbers and projected the taxes (for 2011 figures) to be about 41-48% (considerably higher than middle America pays in taxes). Hence, why we are now on the 9-9-9 Plan (got to know the history of this stuff).

There are a few states that do not have a 'state sales tax' in effect. If conservatives vote Republican, they are stating to Democrats and liberals 'we're ok with a state sales tax of 9%'. They'll NEVER live that one down for a few decades. States that dont have a sales tax will be very resistant to a national sales tax as well. Mr. Cain will have to sell that to each of the states individually instead of as a collective whole. Which should prove fairly amusing for the DNC.

Finally, even if Mr. Cain got to the White House (which is doubtful), he has to PASS the bill. At the bare minimal, that implies COMPRISING. Regardless of the White House, Mr. Cain will have to deal with Democrats to pass the bill. Given how Republicans dealt with Mr. Obama, does anyone seriously think they WOULDN'T want some 'payback' on a Republican President? So Mr. Cain has to sell this idea to the liberals and Democrats in the nation as well. What would conservatives say of Mr. Cain, working 'hand in hand' with 'the enemy' on a plan to create MORE tax laws? Is it 'conservative' to comprise with liberals/Democrats on goverment?

When reality FINALLY catchs up with conservatives, they'll make another on the list of candidates their 'favorite' for the ticket.

< Message edited by joether -- 10/13/2011 1:13:26 PM >

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 1:15:30 PM   
mnottertail


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Well what these guys think they are getting is a republican president, a republican house, and a republican senate, ever the happy but clueless warriors compromise is not in that plan.

Unfortunately, they will be left confused, whining, and hysterical, once again and still.

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RE: 999? - 10/13/2011 1:43:13 PM   
StrangerThan


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Settle down joe. Ain't many people clambering aboard the 999 ship just yet.

As for payback, these dickwads pay each other back every time offices switch. Surely you can't be that blind.


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