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Lucylastic -> Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 11:35:08 AM)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/us/alabama-immigration-law/index.html

A federal appeals court has blocked enforcement of parts of a controversial immigration enforcement law in Alabama.

The injunction issued Friday from the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta came after the U.S. Justice Department - supported by a coalition of immigrant rights groups - requested the legislation, known as HB 56, be put on hold until the larger constitutional questions can be addressed, a process that could take some months at least.

The Obama administration argues the Constitution does not permit states to deter illegal immigration, saying an issue with foreign policy implications is the exclusive mandate of the federal government.

Alabama's law, passed by the legislature this summer, would allow state and local officials to check the immigration status of public school students; to detain suspected illegal aliens without bond; and make it a crime for immigrants who lack proper documents to conduct business with the state for things like driver's licenses.

Among selected provisions blocked from being enforced are:

– Section 10, requiring immigrants to carry an alien registration card;
– Section 28, allowing public school students to be questioned about their immigration status.

Among selected provisions Alabama will be allowed to enforce are:

– Section 30, blocking undocumented immigrants from entering into a "business transaction";
– Section 12, allowing local law enforcement to stop, detain or arrest upon reasonable suspicion anyone "unlawfully present" in the state



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 12:35:18 PM)

quote:

The Obama administration argues the Constitution does not permit states to deter illegal immigration, saying an issue with foreign policy implications is the exclusive mandate of the federal government.


That would seem to be it in a nutshell but I am curious about Section 12, which was allowed to stand. It is one thing if someone is arrested for another crime and is discovered to be an illegal alien... but what exactly constitutes reasonable suspicion? The United States is one of the most (if not the most) multi-ethnic societies on the planet so just physical appearance (i.e. skin color) or language or accent, etc, does no good. Maybe they think illegal aliens sneak around at night looking all shifty-eyed. The unfortunate truth is that some people think that if you are not an English speaking white person then you probably are an illegal alien (or should be). [:'(]



truckinslave -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 12:46:01 PM)

RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.

I'll take the PRO.
1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.
2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.
3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Wanna try the CON?
If you do, please answer the Supposedly "unfortunate" truth as you phrased it: "probably here illegally".



Lucylastic -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 12:48:05 PM)

proof please



truckinslave -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 12:58:21 PM)

quote:

proof please


If you think that's a complete, comprehensible thought, or request, or post, or .... anything, you're possibly pretty deeply into the 86 proof.

If you want to dispute my statements, feel free; but demands that I comply to your wishes will fall upon blind eyes....



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:14:11 PM)

quote:

RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.


Resolved? What, are you a one man legislature?


quote:

I'll take the PRO.
1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.


Bullshit! Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Many people grow up speaking two languages: English and the language of their ancestors. I have many friends and acquaintances who are born citizens (sometimes three or four generations) and speak two languages including Spanish, Gaelic, German, Italian, Arabic, Hebrew and even Igbo and Latvian.


quote:

2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

So? That doesn't mean they are required to speak only English (although I don't doubt that there are some who would prefer that).


quote:

3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Again... so? Just because someone is speaking a language other than English, it is not evidence in and of itself that they are not an American citizen.


quote:

Wanna try the CON?
If you do, please answer the Supposedly "unfortunate" truth as you phrased it: "probably here illegally".


The unfortunate truth I was refering to was not that there are illegal aliens here in the United States but that there are people who are so insular and bigoted that if they hear someone speaking another language, particularly if they are not white, then they leap to the conclusion that they are an illegal allien. As I have successfully demonstrated, no such inference can be sustained.



StrangerThan -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:28:14 PM)

Then just check everyone.

That's the simple, non-profiling move. This same debate came around during Arizona's attempt, with the detractors basically saying, do nothing. That's what you're basically saying, do nothing because you can't do anything.

So here's the deal, if the people in the state support the measure, then expire all state licenses and id cards within the next 3 years, reissue new ones packed with an rfid chip that contains number sequence generated by a trap door algorithm that's only coded once the person possessing it has supplied verifiable proof of citizenship.

A simple reader on the patrol car will tell them quickly whether or not the card is real or faked. Institute language that says you're not required to carry either, but if not, may be subject to verification.

Simple.







farglebargle -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:50:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Then just check everyone.




In a Constitutional Republic, "Freedom" and "Liberty" are the 'default options'...



farglebargle -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:51:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The Obama administration argues the Constitution does not permit states to deter illegal immigration, saying an issue with foreign policy implications is the exclusive mandate of the federal government.


That would seem to be it in a nutshell but I am curious about Section 12, which was allowed to stand. It is one thing if someone is arrested for another crime and is discovered to be an illegal alien... but what exactly constitutes reasonable suspicion? The United States is one of the most (if not the most) multi-ethnic societies on the planet so just physical appearance (i.e. skin color) or language or accent, etc, does no good. Maybe they think illegal aliens sneak around at night looking all shifty-eyed. The unfortunate truth is that some people think that if you are not an English speaking white person then you probably are an illegal alien (or should be). [:'(]


Reasonable Suspicion is a lower threshold than Probable Cause, previously the requirement for a warrant to inspect your person, papers and effects.



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:56:06 PM)

quote:

Then just check everyone.

That's the simple, non-profiling move. This same debate came around during Arizona's attempt, with the detractors basically saying, do nothing. That's what you're basically saying, do nothing because you can't do anything.


Presuming everyone is guilty of committing a crime is no way to run a free society. I am not saying do nothing. I am all in favor of seriously tightining border security. As a soverign nation I believe we have the right to stop people at the border and give them a look over before we let them in (we have enough domestically produced assholes, we don't need to import any) but that is not the same thing as treating someone with suspicion simply because of their looks or their language.

quote:

So here's the deal, if the people in the state support the measure, then expire all state licenses and id cards within the next 3 years, reissue new ones packed with an rfid chip that contains number sequence generated by a trap door algorithm that's only coded once the person possessing it has supplied verifiable proof of citizenship.

A simple reader on the patrol car will tell them quickly whether or not the card is real or faked. Institute language that says you're not required to carry either, but if not, may be subject to verification.

Simple.


No... I don't think so. First, you know damn well that they will pass the cost of the new licences and id cards directly to us. I have enough expenses in my life, I don't need any more just because you're worried that "Paco" may not have been born here.

Secondly, while I am not one of those people who think that all police are pigs who abuse their authority, some none-the-less are. We do not need to be giving the police that much power over our lives. If a cop wants to know more about me he better have a damn good reason and he better not violate my rights in the process.

Thirdly, there is no such thing as an uncorruptable system. Somebody will find a way to beat it and profit on it ("psst.. buddy... I hear you need an identity chip"). Even worse, someone will find away to screw up someone elses for nefarious purposes ("See! I told you my ex was an illegal alien... I guess that means I get custody of the children, right?).

The answer to the illegal immigration problem is simple, though. It is not easy, but that is not the same thing as simple. First, tighten the border like I said. It won't be done because both the Democrats (new voters) and the Republicans (cheap labor) have a stake in maintaining the status quo... but it could be done. Second, issue a general amnesty to all illegals already here... unless you want to spend the millions of dollars needed to round them all up and ship them out. I don't doubt that would be gratifying to the insular, bigoted types but the cost in our freedoms (not to mention the millions of dollars needed to implement such a forced mass migration) are simply too high.






StrangerThan -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 1:57:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Then just check everyone.




In a Constitutional Republic, "Freedom" and "Liberty" are the 'default options'...


We take risks every day in pursuit of Freedom and Liberty, one of which is covered by the may line above. You can exercise your right as you wish. Most will simply get a new license or id card in the same way they get them now.

This can be done fargle. It can be done reasonably, and in a way that both protects the borders and protects those who want to come here and work. I got nothing against them. Given the same circumstances, I'd probably be doing the same thing. But to simply do nothing, to me, is like saying, we love slave labor, we just don't want to call it that. We love keeping them where they are because they always got a reason to fear.

Shrug.




StrangerThan -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 2:04:21 PM)

A cop has every right to ask you for identification now. As for the costs, absolutely you should bear them if you're in a state that passes such laws and the majority supports them.

There is no assumption of guilt. What there is an assumption of is, if you're going to use the roadway, going to conduct business, going to get a job.... all those things already require identification. It's a simple matter of coalescing it in a single place where it can be easily verified.

Some police do abuse their authority. I'd rather we deal with them than simply adopt a do-nothing attitude.

This problem can be fixed. And the problem isn't just that we have illegals here doing work. It is that they have to live in fear the entire time. The system as is, is not sustainable.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 3:54:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:


1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.


Bullshit! Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Many people grow up speaking two languages: English and the language of their ancestors. I have many friends and acquaintances who are born citizens (sometimes three or four generations) and speak two languages including Spanish, Gaelic, German, Italian, Arabic, Hebrew and even Igbo and Latvian.


You failed in your own explanation there. Truckinslave said NOTHING about being bi or multi lingual. You admit yourself, they are speaking English.

quote:


quote:

2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

So? That doesn't mean they are required to speak only English (although I don't doubt that there are some who would prefer that).



Again, where are you reading that it was said "only?"

quote:


quote:

3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Again... so? Just because someone is speaking a language other than English, it is not evidence in and of itself that they are not an American citizen.


But it may be "reasonable suspicion" to ask them about their immigration status.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/14/2011 4:03:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Presuming everyone is guilty of committing a crime is no way to run a free society. I am not saying do nothing. I am all in favor of seriously tightining border security. As a soverign nation I believe we have the right to stop people at the border and give them a look over before we let them in (we have enough domestically produced assholes, we don't need to import any) but that is not the same thing as treating someone with suspicion simply because of their looks or their language.


Do you have the concept that what you say above is worse than the idea of "profiling?" With profiling, everyone who is speaking a foreign language is subjected to providing documentation they are here legally. That could be proof of citizenship, green card or visa.

Your way, someone is determining they are an asshole? If you are going to try to argue a point, at least try to have a legitimate argument for your point.

quote:


Secondly, while I am not one of those people who think that all police are pigs who abuse their authority, some none-the-less are. We do not need to be giving the police that much power over our lives. If a cop wants to know more about me he better have a damn good reason and he better not violate my rights in the process.


Good reason? He thinks you are an asshole, that's enough legal reason, and with your definition above, he gets to make that determination.


Even worse, someone will find away to screw up someone elses for nefarious purposes ("See! I told you my ex was an illegal alien... I guess that means I get custody of the children, right?).


This already happens and can and does result in deportation. What would be changing?



truckinslave -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/15/2011 3:54:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.


Resolved? What, are you a one man legislature?

Most people know this is how formal debates start.


quote:

I'll take the PRO.
1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.


Bullshit! Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Many people grow up speaking two languages: English and the language of their ancestors. I have many friends and acquaintances who are born citizens (sometimes three or four generations) and speak two languages including Spanish, Gaelic, German, Italian, Arabic, Hebrew and even Igbo and Latvian.

Thanks for proving my point. Such a person as you describe ("speaking two languages") cannot also be described as "does not speak English" unless you posit that, although born in the USA he grows up speaking, say, Gaelic and Hebrew, but not English. And that position is ludicrous even for you.


quote:

2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

So? That doesn't mean they are required to speak only English (although I don't doubt that there are some who would prefer that).

It means they cannot be included in the group "does not speak English", which is one of the two criteria of the group we are discussing.


quote:

3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Again... so? Just because someone is speaking a language other than English, it is not evidence in and of itself that they are not an American citizen.

No, but it certainly is more support for the resolution starting this little debate.


quote:

Wanna try the CON?
If you do, please answer the Supposedly "unfortunate" truth as you phrased it: "probably here illegally".


The unfortunate truth I was refering to was not that there are illegal aliens here in the United States but that there are people who are so insular and bigoted that if they hear someone speaking another language, particularly if they are not white, then they leap to the conclusion that they are an illegal allien. As I have successfully demonstrated, no such inference can be sustained.


Not at all. It is perfectly clear that most people who are in America and cannot speak English are here illegally. Not all; just a majority.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/15/2011 4:59:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.

1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.

BULLSHIT!!!

Ever been to miami?



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/16/2011 9:47:06 AM)

quote:

You failed in your own explanation there. Truckinslave said NOTHING about being bi or multi lingual. You admit yourself, they are speaking English.


That’s right, he said nothing about being bi-lingual or multi-lingiual. What he said was that natural born citizens (as opposed to unnaturally born citizens?) grow up speaking English. The obvious implication is that if you hear someone speaking a language other than English then they are probably foreign and likely to be here illegally. No such inference, however, can be logically made.

quote:

Again, where are you reading that it was said "only?"


I’m not. But again, he is operating on the presumption that if it’s not English you’re hearing then they are probably one of those damn illegals. You can go into restaurants around here and hear entire families speaking in Polish or Gaelic… that doesn’t mean they are illegal aliens, it means they are American citizens of Polish or Gaelic descent.

quote:

But it may be "reasonable suspicion" to ask them about their immigration status.


No. It is not. Not in a multi-ethnic society like the United States.



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/16/2011 9:56:52 AM)

quote:

Do you have the concept that what you say above is worse than the idea of "profiling?" With profiling, everyone who is speaking a foreign language is subjected to providing documentation they are here legally. That could be proof of citizenship, green card or visa.

Your way, someone is determining they are an asshole? If you are going to try to argue a point, at least try to have a legitimate argument for your point.


Your premise is that someone speaking a language other than English is likely to be foreign. It is a false premise. Why do I have to say this over and over? This is a multi-ethnic society!

quote:

Good reason? He thinks you are an asshole, that's enough legal reason, and with your definition above, he gets to make that determination.


If a cop’s personal dislike of someone is all the legal reason he needs to harass that person then we might as well give up on the whole idea of freedom.

quote:

This already happens and can and does result in deportation. What would be changing?


Under StrangerThan’s idea of ID chips it will become easier and more widespread.



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/16/2011 10:36:04 AM)

quote:

Thanks for proving my point. Such a person as you describe ("speaking two languages") cannot also be described as "does not speak English" unless you posit that, although born in the USA he grows up speaking, say, Gaelic and Hebrew, but not English. And that position is ludicrous even for you.


You did not say speaking only English, you said grows up speaking English. But as I pointed out some people grow up speaking two languages and therefore hearing someone speaking a language other than English can not be taken as evidence that they are not U.S. citizens.

quote:

It means they cannot be included in the group "does not speak English", which is one of the two criteria of the group we are discussing.


How can you possibly know that they don’t speak any English unless you make inquiries? And hearing someone speaking another language simple is not sufficient reason to make such an inquiry. If someone is arrested for whatever reason and then you find out that they don’t speak any English, that would be a reasonable cause to inquire further. But just hearing someone speaking something other than English as you walk down the street is not sufficient cause. It is nothing more than bigoted harassment.

quote:

No, but it certainly is more support for the resolution starting this little debate.


Only if you are of a mindset that sees people different than you as being suspicious and less than human.

quote:

Not at all. It is perfectly clear that most people who are in America and cannot speak English are here illegally. Not all; just a majority.


Not relevant. The fact remains that just because you hear someone speaking something other than English, you do not have a legitimate reason (if you care about civil rights) to suspect that person of being an illegal alien.



Marc2b -> RE: Alabama Immigration Law Partially Blocked (10/16/2011 10:44:41 AM)

quote:

A cop has every right to ask you for identification now. As for the costs, absolutely you should bear them if you're in a state that passes such laws and the majority supports them.


Yeah… fuck the poor… they can afford a little more.

quote:

There is no assumption of guilt. What there is an assumption of is, if you're going to use the roadway, going to conduct business, going to get a job.... all those things already require identification. It's a simple matter of coalescing it in a single place where it can be easily verified.


If there is no assumption of guilt, why ask for ID?

quote:

Some police do abuse their authority. I'd rather we deal with them than simply adopt a do-nothing attitude.


This presumes that not harassing people is doing nothing. It presumes that harassing people is the only option. This is simply not true.

quote:

This problem can be fixed. And the problem isn't just that we have illegals here doing work. It is that they have to live in fear the entire time. The system as is, is not sustainable.


I’ve already stated my idea and it doesn’t involve the police stopping people just because they have the “wrong” skin color and/or are speaking the “wrong” language.



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