Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall today against a proposal to ban the sale of shark fins


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall today against a proposal to ban the sale of shark fins Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall today against a... - 10/24/2011 4:58:10 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
Toronto shark fin ban draws mounting opposition ahead of vote


“I’m a big supporter of the Chinese community, if that’s part of their culture then we shouldn’t interfere in that.” Councillor Doug Ford, our Mayors brother.

Y I K E S.


_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat


Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/24/2011 5:00:54 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
“It really is more a status food, and it is for older generations,” Ms. Sun said. “For a lot of people in my generation, we really just do it for grandma and older aunts and uncles. So there’s some pressure there, when people get married, ‘Oh, grandma will be disappointed if there’s no shark fin.’”


_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/24/2011 8:10:03 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
Found this a few weeks ago while just wandering around you tube. Its of Gordon Ramsey's 'Shark Bait' special. In it, he walks through the set of events almost backwards from serving dish to the ocean. What he finds really disturbs him. Frankly watching that, really disturbed me.

Here's the video.

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/24/2011 9:58:40 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
If the Chinese want to pay money to eat shark, more power to them, and considering shark meat, the fin is a top end cut. What about the "Mysteryfish" ever cheap fish place, low end prepared dinner, and institution has on the menu?

And we do accidentally kill a lot of sharks, they cannot breath when they cannot swim, if you catch one in a net they often suffocate,. If you catch them on a long line you often will break their necks/spines, as they don't have much in the way of a bone structure. Then there are the smaller ones getting caught in crab traps.

If the Chinese (the Japanese also pay money for certain shark parts like their skins) want to pay for the normal inadvertent results of net or commercial line fishing, and the people otherwise prohibit any deliberate fishing of them, I cannot see any more harm coming from it, it is the modern fishing practices themselves, and worldwide, that have killed many of them.

Chinese eating shark fins is way down the list of grievances the sharks might claim to have.

So what does the Province of Toronto think, they might save the sharks with this? For every kilo of shark fin for sale, there is an easy fiftyfold weight of shark meat in commercial circulation, often sold as everything else (swordfish ia a popular fiction)  or beaten into "Fish Stix" and institutional pap.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall today again... - 10/25/2011 6:45:29 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
I don't care if they ban shark fins just so long as they keep serving up the foie gras.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 6:53:00 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

So what does the Province of Toronto think, they might save the sharks with this? For every kilo of shark fin for sale, there is an easy fiftyfold weight of shark meat in commercial circulation,


Here's the problem, quaker. The above statement is incorrect. The traditional method of collecting shark fins is 'finning'. Sharks are caught, the fins are cut off and the rest is dumped overboard to die and rot. When a 500# shark is caught, instead of 300# of meat and 15# of fins, they just keep the fins and waste the rest as the fins are so much more valuable than the rest of the carcass.
Sharks are what is known as apex predators. They are the top of the food chain in the area they live in and, as such, keep the sick and infirm culled of most other species. Remove the sharks from a reef environment (or deep sea or pelagic) and the overall health of the resident fish stocks will decrease.
This actually leads to a decrease in overall stocks and makes overfishing more likely.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 9:16:36 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
i think "finning" should be banned. i think cultural practices SHOULD change when they create such a risk to the future of a species. people should be mindful of the damage that their habits can cause -- i mean, the last javan rhinocerous was shot in 2010 -- the LAST ONE -- because it's a "cultural practice" to use their horns in "traditional medicine."
Hill is right -- shark fins aren't a by-product of shark meat, they are the end goal, and the rest of the meat is dumped and wasted. it's an idiotic practice.



_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 12:07:40 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

So what does the Province of Toronto think, they might save the sharks with this? For every kilo of shark fin for sale, there is an easy fiftyfold weight of shark meat in commercial circulation,


Here's the problem, quaker. The above statement is incorrect. The traditional method of collecting shark fins is 'finning'. Sharks are caught, the fins are cut off and the rest is dumped overboard to die and rot. When a 500# shark is caught, instead of 300# of meat and 15# of fins, they just keep the fins and waste the rest as the fins are so much more valuable than the rest of the carcass.
Sharks are what is known as apex predators. They are the top of the food chain in the area they live in and, as such, keep the sick and infirm culled of most other species. Remove the sharks from a reef environment (or deep sea or pelagic) and the overall health of the resident fish stocks will decrease.
This actually leads to a decrease in overall stocks and makes overfishing more likely.


But such things can be changed.

We see it done differently here then, as now they are buying the whole fish, was which I noted are often dead when caught (I myself have caught many over the years, when a big fish on your line suddenly feels like you are towing a tractor tire or are pulling a kelp patch, you have a "dead" shark.) If one gets into the net, it usually savages the other local captives before it dies. If you catch one commercially you get paid by the weight of it, just as any other fish. (Albeit not nearly as much as certain other ones.)

That fininng practice can and has been banned by the USAsians, and Canada can tighten our ban on the practice on the federal level too, relatively easily by emulating the US law (Boats with shark fins aboard must also have the apprepriate amount of shark carcass to match the fins they possess, the fins must remain on the fish until it is in port, and sale of just the fins to fish brokers is illegal.)  If Toronto residents want to actually do something they need to take the matter to Ottawa, and have them act federally, the current US legislation is actually pretty good, if they need an idea of how to go about it, and are not satisfied with the Dominion's current efforts and ban on "shark finning."

The bad part is the line caught fish are still alive but with their spinal cord damaged, are going to suffocate if you release them,  they just float their on the surface trying to swim, until they die in several minutes. Most the ones you accidentally catch commercially are dead, or soon will be.

As you noted they are the top of the food chain and thus they are loaded with stuff like mercury and every other thing and you would think the public would avoid eating them for this reason.

We normally don't eat them, though we can process the meat to be edible and I have had shark before. But for us, the skins and the spines (they have poisoned spikes adjacent to  their fins) are the more valuable parts, and we catch enough accidentally to satisfy this modest demand, with the carcass being dried and thus being made edible fed to the dogs, or kept to make soup or stew with, when the fish are hiding.

My point was that modern fishing is gong to catch a certain large number of them, and  substantial part of that catch cannot be released and survive. The fins are only a small part of this fish. And the fish is surprisingly fragile, considering its reputation.

quote:

"But what hasn't changed is at large fishermen's markets, everyday, different parts of sharks are auctioned but only after whole sharks are brought in to the market. You can't just enter the market with fins alone," he said through a translator.

"I don't think it's fair to launch a full ban only because a small group of people harvest sharks inhumanely," said Leung. "Shouldn't we address the practice of shark-finning first, strengthen conservation efforts, increase penalties for illegally killing sharks, before we ban shark fins? "


"Unless it's nationwide legislation, I don't see how it can effectively end the illegal shark hunting," he said through a translator.

Of course there is no shortage of sharks in our waters here, and the marine mammals we have are the local seagoing predators.  While actually fishing for them is not done here, (they are fished for on Canada's east coast) catching them if you set out to do it is not hard, I have caught the same shark several times in a half hour period while attempting to catch something else with a hand line, you would think one would tire of having hooks pulled out of it's jaw after the second time.

Here is a list of those that have banned the practice -

quote:

American Samoa, Argentina , Australia (most States Territories), Brazil, Canada, Cape Verde, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, European Union, India, Mexico, Namibia, Nicaragua, Oman, Panama, Seychelles (foreign vessels only), South Africa (in national waters only), Spain, United States.


And the shark savers note they think the way to go about it is as I said -

quote:

Only a small number of countries have banned finning and many more need to be encouraged to enact legislation. In some cases, only whole sharks may be landed, meaning the fins must be attached to the body. In other cases, the fins may be removed by the bodies for packing in the boat, but the vessel may not land shark fins that weigh more than 5 percent of the "dressed" weight of the sharks: that is, the weight of the carcass after the removal of the head and innards. Laws that require the fins to be landed still attached is better from a conservation standpoint because the 5% rule is easily manipulated.


Laws protecting sharks

But besides the Asians, the Europeans are actaully the worst sinners in the shark fin game. The EUrocrats say they will  says they will tighten things up real soon now -EU promises tighter fishing laws to protect sharks

But since

quote:

 Spain is a leading exporter in the shark fin market, followed by France, Portugal and Britain.


I am certain this will be some while.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 12:36:35 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
Can't we find a way to stop being such barbarians?

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 12:41:24 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

Can't we find a way to stop being such barbarians?


somehow you'd think we'd figure it out, but this seems to be our only talent.


_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 1:30:13 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
As long as one creature eats the other, this sort of thing goes on. I am certain the plants would complain too, if they could, even they have bee demonstrated to feel pain.

For better or worse, that is the circle of life. And most the Europeans think my people are crazy for formally apologizing to the creatures we eat.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 1:31:21 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Oh, they do, Clarisse-------the horrible screaming of the sheaves.....

Hannibal Lector

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 1:42:12 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

As long as one creature eats the other, this sort of thing goes on. I am certain the plants would complain too, if they could, even they have bee demonstrated to feel pain.

For better or worse, that is the circle of life. And most the Europeans think my people are crazy for formally apologizing to the creatures we eat.



not necessarily true; humans are the one creature that repeatedly consumes others to the point of extinction. no other creature does that.


_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 1:52:49 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
toronto council k\just voted 38-4 to ban dhark fins..YAY
enforcemnt is another issue
just came thru on the news


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 1:56:30 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
Good for them. The Chinese will drive to Mississauga now for their shark soup, and all will be well.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 2:46:35 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
until they decide to ban it at fed level
I guess you are ok with shooting tigers, bears and rhinos for their "qualities huh
many of these "food ready critters are endangered and mass slaughter is such a wonderful way of ensuring they survive.NOT
ignorance is one thing arrogance is another


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 3:29:22 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

until they decide to ban it at fed level
I guess you are ok with shooting tigers, bears and rhinos for their "qualities huh
many of these "food ready critters are endangered and mass slaughter is such a wonderful way of ensuring they survive.NOT
ignorance is one thing arrogance is another



Er, as I noted previously, "shark finning" is already banned on both sides of the border, and even the import of shark fin obtained in that manner is prohibited by USAsians.

If Canada (and North Americans in general) banned imported shark in any form, it would do more to help, there is enough sharks in our  waters to fulfill any conceivable need, and let those accidentally caught and killed in nets or on long lines be the ones on the market. The local ratios are pretty well known, somebody who catches too many (or too few) sharks "inadvertently" might need to explain how this deviation occurred as even they do now regarding other fishing.

But prohibiting just the fin is like prohibiting a tiger's whiskers in Toronto, and hoping to save them.

But I am glad it made you feel good.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 6:08:19 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
just because you think 34 million sharks dead just for their fins are fine per YEAR, doesnt mean you are correct, they are stripping the stock and there are more than a few species endangered.
You might not see the point, but seeing how you see things in "general" I dont give a rats behind.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 6:46:37 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

just because you think 34 million sharks dead just for their fins are fine per YEAR, doesnt mean you are correct, they are stripping the stock and there are more than a few species endangered.
You might not see the point, but seeing how you see things in "general" I dont give a rats behind.


If it were only 34 million I would think it was a good thing, as it would be a certain improvement. But by not eating shark soup, I am certain the Province of Toronto is improving this.

In fact you should ban all commercially caught seafood, so the sharks are not caught and killed by the main method that is now killing them in North American waters, being inadvertently caught (and usually killed in the process) with modern commercial net and line fishing. You are a moral coward if you ever eat another commercially caught fish, if what you say is what you really believe.

Of course you could consider better serving the sharks by considering realistic laws that actually accomplish their intended goals of cutting down on illicit shark fishing, or those harvesting only their fins, while doing something productive with the sharks caught and killed while fishing for other species.

But it is good to see the Toronto experts spending their time and effort "fixing" this great problem of the Chinese eating shark meat which would otherwise often go into cat food, vitamins, or fertilizer, instead of meddling in more important ecological affairs.



(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall against a p... - 10/25/2011 7:01:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
as I said..I dont give a sharks behind about your thoughts or expectations of what I should or shouldnt do
have a nice life

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Demonstration outside Toronto City Hall today against a proposal to ban the sale of shark fins Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109