Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (Full Version)

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TheRoper -> Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 4:56:31 AM)

Perhaps a misleading title due to how varied and long these questions/scenarios are, but as a newby to the BDSM scene, I'm curious about many things... Kudos to those who read through the whole lot.
I want my sub(s) to want to come back to me for more, so I know there has to be an exchange of both people getting what they want out of it, as with any type of relationship.
I have many scenarios in my head I want to play out which I only want to see just to see the sub struggle with some arbitrary task. I think the best example of this is as follows (with a male sub):
I want to restrain his arms behind his back to make them useless to him. I then want to put a padlock around the base of the head of his cock just big enough so it can't slip off then hand him the key, and tell him to find a way to unlock the padlock. I can only imagine the ways he might struggle to do it - whether he tries jamming the key in a door and line himself up with it or some other strange position, I'd get a lot of entertainment and satisfaction out of watching it unfold and it's something I very much want to try. (Also thought about adding another padlock to his balls, attaching a TENS unit to either end, and occasionally giving him a bit of a shock while he tries to get free)
The problem with that, for me, is that because I'm quite selective about who I play with, I tend to want them to come back for more punishment at some point.
I know everyone is different and I know there'll be no single answer to this, but I want to get the general community feedback, would a scenario where you were being put through some hardship, possibly humiliating, just for the pleasure of the Dom to watch, be something you would... enjoy? put up with? detest?

On a more broad note, while talking with Dom's to sort out limits and interests, is it typical for a sub to try to guide the session? Driving the session from the spread eagle position while tied to a St. Andrews cross (blindfolded, and with more than one object protruding from various orifices) seems just a bit contradictory in roles to me. She was telling me what she wanted me to do to her next, when the understanding we had was one of strong and definite D/s roles...
So I guess that also leads into the question of how temporary submission differs from a permanent arrangement. If you're just meeting with a Dom for a single session, is it more acceptable to try to guide what shape that will take? As above, of course, both parties have to get something out of it. But how strongly do you try to influence that? How much influence do you think the sub -should have- in how the session takes shape?

Lots of words to read, lots of questions to answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for the general hive-mind so I better know what to expect from people in future. Apologies if this isn't laid out in a sensible way, I'm just typing things as they come to mind.



DarkSteven -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 5:04:16 AM)

First, welcome to collarme.

Then, understand for many that it is NOT about the physical aspects of the scene itself.  Your first scene could be summed up as "I want to immobilize a sub and watch him squirm.  Which subs would put up with that?"  To answer you, all kinds of play partners might.  Your main hurdle, IMO, will be to find a man willing to scene with another man.  NOTE: what you described is play, NOT punishment.

Your second scene is referred to as service Topping, where the bottom gets what she wants from the Top during play.  I've done it, and don't really like it, although I liked the woman I Topped.  To answer your question, the degree of control is decided by the players.  I'd say that you found that you'd rather be controlling the scene.

Welcome again!

[sm=welcome.gif]



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 5:34:28 AM)

the first paragraph sounds like something called "predicament bondage;" it's actually a fairly popular activity. there are all sorts of ways to do it, with one or more people, with a variety of different kinds of bondage and predicaments. if you're on Fetlife, you can probably find groups dedicated completely to predicament bondage (there's a group for everything there).
i find it to be pretty interesting, though i haven't gotten to do much myself. it's a fun way to play. =p

secondly, DS is right -- the next activity is more of a service topping arrangement. i wouldn't say it's typical for subs to guide sessions, but it is definitely something that can happen, depending on the dynamic. some people find those types of arrangements fulfilling while others don't. for me, personally, i have no desire to control or dictate a scene.

also, Topping/bottoming isn't necessarily about Dominance/submission -- it CAN be, if the people involved make it so. some Dominants are masochistic, too, and they may have their subs/slaves service-top them -- it's not about submission for them, merely about receiving a sensation that they find enjoyable. so bottoming and long-term submission differ in that there is an expectation of behavior for the long term, while a bottom may or may not have any real expectation -- a Top is unlikely to assume that the bottom is now totally submissive and will respond to orders and commands just because they're scening together.

for me, as a submissive bottom with no desire to guide scenes, i play with people whose play styles i've observed, and who do things i generally like, and respect the same limits i do. that way i can feel comfortable and raise my chances of enjoying a scene without feeling like i have to control every little aspect. once the scene starts, i don't really want any control -- but to facilitate that in a safe way, you have to make good choices on who you play with.
that said, i don't do a lot of casual scening anyway, because it doesn't really fulfill the submissive side of me, which i think might be more active than the bottoming side, but i have no real idea. =p  bottoming CAN fulfill that side, but the things that do are generally things i won't do with someone who isn't my Dominant.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 5:46:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRoper

The problem with that, for me, is that because I'm quite selective about who I play with, I tend to want them to come back for more punishment at some point.
I know everyone is different and I know there'll be no single answer to this, but I want to get the general community feedback, would a scenario where you were being put through some hardship, possibly humiliating, just for the pleasure of the Dom to watch, be something you would... enjoy? put up with? detest?

If it's something he has decided that he wants to do to me, then it happens whether I like it or not. I generally tend to get really aroused by whatever it is, even if it's something I detest, just because it's something that he wants.

quote:

On a more broad note, while talking with Dom's to sort out limits and interests, is it typical for a sub to try to guide the session? Driving the session from the spread eagle position while tied to a St. Andrews cross (blindfolded, and with more than one object protruding from various orifices) seems just a bit contradictory in roles to me. She was telling me what she wanted me to do to her next, when the understanding we had was one of strong and definite D/s roles...

I never ever ever ever tell him what to do. We do what he wants. One of the biggest draws in all of this for me was to not have any control or choices. I get off on that. Having it be him who does the controlling is icing on the cake.

quote:

So I guess that also leads into the question of how temporary submission differs from a permanent arrangement. If you're just meeting with a Dom for a single session, is it more acceptable to try to guide what shape that will take? As above, of course, both parties have to get something out of it. But how strongly do you try to influence that? How much influence do you think the sub -should have- in how the session takes shape?

I don't do any of this casually. Way back when Shorey and I were initially talking we talked about a million things, most had nothing to do with bdsm. It became apparent to us that we were a match on all kinds of levels, but the absolute one was our views on obedience. He says and I do. I never try to influence him, but I also never filter things. If I love something I tell him, whether we're talking about music, art or something really kinky. If I hate something I also tell him. He loves me and as a result a lot of the things we do together are a combo of things I love and things he loves.





ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 5:53:23 AM)

Both situations as you depict them appear to me to be single "play" sessions in which you are the top.

Single play sessions should be carefully negotiated beforehand. The following is copied from Jay Wiseman's 16 negotiation points:

  • People: Who will take part?
  • Roles: Who will be dominant? Who will be submissive?
  • Place: Where will the session occur?
  • Time: When will the session begin and how long will it last?
  • Oops: Both parties agree that any accidents, miscommunications, etc. will be handled in a constructive manner.
  • Limits: Mainly covers the submissive's physical and emotional limits.
  • Sex: It's crucial to agree clearly and specifically, _before_ beginning the session, about exactly what kind of conventional sexual contact, if any, is mutually acceptable.
  • Intoxicants: Don't play if either of you is seriously drunk or stoned.
  • Bondage: Who will be tied up? To what extent?
  • Pain: How does the submissive feel about receiving pain?
  • Marks: Will it cause the submissive problems if the session leaves marks?
  • Humiliation: This can include "verbal abuse," forced exhibitionism, water sports, enemas, slapping the face, spitting, and scat games.
  • Safewords: I recommend using at least two safe words: one for "lighten up" and one for "stop completely."
  • Opportunities: Is there anything either person has wanted to try?
  • Follow-up: What arrangements can be made for the two people to spend "straight time" together after the scene?
  • Anything else? Is there anything else to discuss or negotiate about before beginning?Here's the website if you want to know more:

    http://www.evilmonk.org/a/menu.cfm

    As far as the first scene you depicted, I think you would have a better chance of fulfilling your fantasy with a long term partner who would do it for you, for your pleasure. Since subs aim to please, putting one in a situation where they would undoubtedly fail for your amusement is not something you can ask of a random bottom, unless they just so happen to have the same fetish. Possible, not all that likely.

    As far as the second scene, certainly you can ask the bottom to treat you as their dominant and not give you direction, but they don't have to agree. On the one hand I can see why you didn't enjoy it, on the other, you could have picked up some good pointers by listening. Not to mention a thorough "debriefing" afterwards.

    You are new, you need to learn many things, and topping an experienced bottom can be a very enjoyable way to get there. But do keep your mind open and remember to negotiate carefully.



    • myotherself -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 6:21:48 AM)

    When single, I rarely 'bottomed' because I had too much control of the scene. I don't want control or choices, I want what he wants to give. However when bottoming I was never able to commit fully to the scene, simply because there was no real mental/emotional bond with the dominant.

    Now with Master, it's very different. He knows what I love. He knows what I hate. But the choice is always his. I know he loves to hurt or humiliate me in particular ways that I hate. But knowing that he loves doing it, does it for me too. If he's feeling particularly benevolent then he'll do something that I really love, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

    If he wanted me to start laying down the rules for what we did, I would leave. I chose him because he wants to control me, and I love him for it.



    SimplyMichael -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 6:23:01 AM)

    Negotiation is for pussies! Its a great thing for many but its a perfect example of how varied all this is. You sound bisexual. Wouldnt work for me. The only use for men in a scene to me is perhaps paying for his wifes boob job or eating my cum out of her.

    In other words, you get the most important concept. NO MATTER WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE BOTH PEOPLE NEED TO BE GETTING SOMETHING OUT OF IT.

    That might mean she hates ever second of it but simply loves that she did something so taboo that made you so happy. Might mean you two switch later or that it pisses of her ex or whatever.



    ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 6:42:55 AM)

    Negotiation is for pussies?

    Really?

    That may be true in an actual D/s relationship. I don't think that's what the OP is dealing with, which is why I started my post with this: Both situations as you depict them appear to me to be single "play" sessions in which you are the top

    Tops and bottoms *should* negotiate single session scenes.

    Shesh Michael, this guy is new, you really want to be responsible for turning him loose on an equally as ignorant bottom?



    lelloy -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 7:01:19 AM)

    Personally, predicament bondage seems kinda superficial to me. It doesn't interest me and if that's all there was to it, I wouldn't be back. It seems more of an annoyance than anything exciting.

    quote:

    is it typical for a sub to try to guide the session?


    At one point, I was vehemently against the idea. As a sub, I HATE having to take someone by the hand... unfortunately there are situations where you have to. After a year without any satisfying release in terms of power exchange...I gave in and had a guided session with a top where I explained to him how to do knifeplay and handle blood safely. When the Dom isn't familiar to the act or they don't have much experience with that sub, a little guidance is probably good, even if it may detract for some people. And I'm a firm believer that communication is always good; expressing wants and needs is a good thing and I don't believe that's at all related to TFTB. However...expressing wants and needs doesn't necessarily mean they get it the way they want.

    Negotiation is essential.



    HannahLynn -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 8:42:07 AM)

    quote:

    would a scenario where you were being put through some hardship, possibly humiliating, just for the pleasure of the Dom to watch, be something you would... enjoy? put up with? detest?
    it depends on the fucking scenario, now doesn't it? if it involves shit i don't like then i'm not going enjoy it all that much, if it involves shit i do like, then i'll be all fucking aglow with anticipation of the fun.

    quote:

    If you're just meeting with a Dom for a single session, is it more acceptable to try to guide what shape that will take?
    fuck yes. that sort of thing is often negotiated in advance, practically fucking scripted sometimes. i don't know the fucker, so as a rule i want to know what the fuck he/she has in mind so i can add to it shit i am particularly looking to get and/or veto shit i'm not into in advance.

    quote:

    But how strongly do you try to influence that?
    a lot depends on the fucker's experience, usually my attempts to influence are inversely proportional to his/her experience.

    quote:

    How much influence do you think the sub -should have- in how the session takes shape?
    for a single session? as much as the cunt wants. its her fucking ass getting beat, she can decide whatever the fuck she wants. if its a single session you're not fucking dominating, you're topping. if you don't like the amount of control this one insists on, no fucking probs, just go find youself a different slut-du-jour. if she's your only option for play, then suck it the fuck up princess.



    SimplyMichael -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:09:34 AM)

    Negotiation for newbies is a great concept but i have seen just as much drama from inexperienced negotiation as from not. I teach negotiation classes from a very different perspective. We spend an hour or so violating the fuck out of the spirit of peoples negotiation all while adherimg strictly to the letter to make a point. Choosing good people to play with is vastly more important that anyrhing else. It also teaches them that even with the best of intent, you can feel violated even by someome with no intent to do so. Gettimg THAT point across as well as how to woek through it when it happens cures more problems than the way some treat negotiation



    HannahLynn -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:15:15 AM)

    now that's a fucking really good idea for a class. that is the sort of shit people need to learn how to do.



    ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:22:14 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

    Negotiation for newbies is a great concept but i have seen just as much drama from inexperienced negotiation as from not. I teach negotiation classes from a very different perspective. We spend an hour or so violating the fuck out of the spirit of peoples negotiation all while adherimg strictly to the letter to make a point. Choosing good people to play with is vastly more important that anyrhing else. It also teaches them that even with the best of intent, you can feel violated even by someome with no intent to do so. Gettimg THAT point across as well as how to woek through it when it happens cures more problems than the way some treat negotiation


    A great lesson for a negotiation class, but (as I'm sure you know) this is an open forum often read by relatively new and clueless people. 





    Wolf2Bear -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:26:24 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

    In other words, you get the most important concept. NO MATTER WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE BOTH PEOPLE NEED TO BE GETTING SOMETHING OUT OF IT.




    Exactly.



    DesFIP -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:27:55 AM)

    Personally I don't enjoy being set up to fail, even if he enjoys it. But that's me. It's something you need to discuss and you need to know your partner well enough to be able to tell when it's gone too far, and is making them feel like a failure. Because they shouldn't come away from the session feeling like that.

    As far as me leading the session. A couple of times I've really wanted something and he's usually been amenable. If he doesn't do it immediately, he'll get to it soon enough. But there have also been plenty of times I've asked for stuff and been told no. Because I say I want it doesn't mean he has to do it. I'm curious op as to why you felt you had to do what the bottom told you.

    However in casual play, the bottom is going to want to get something worthwhile out of it. A partner who you have an ongoing relationship with will be more likely to agree to occasional sessions that they detest because they know their partner loves it. But that's because the two people care about each other. But in a one time play session, there's no reason to suffer through something you despise for a person you barely know.



    insertclevername -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:41:56 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: TheRoper


    I know everyone is different and I know there'll be no single answer to this, but I want to get the general community feedback, would a scenario where you were being put through some hardship, possibly humiliating, just for the pleasure of the Dom to watch, be something you would... enjoy? put up with? detest?


    Sure, but for me it's less about the scenario than about the connection with the domme. If I like her, and my DNA intermixs just right with her, being made to do things I dislike can be intoxicating. Put me in the exact same scenario with another domme, and I could be glassy eyed from bordom and metaphorically checking my watch.

    The whip is less important than the hand that's holding it. 




    Hisprettybaby -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 11:54:08 AM)

    OP,
    I would say that negotiation about limits, what's okay and not okay, etc, should happen, but it should happen BEFORE the scene. Then you can have more control IN the scene without stepping on any limits.

    The first paragraph sounds like predicament bondage, which a lot of kinksters do enjoy. The second paragraph sounds like service Topping rather than actually Dominating someone, which is okay if that's what you're into.

    Bottom line, as long as you're both getting your needs met, who cares what anyone else thinks?[;)]



    HisPet21 -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 1:54:44 PM)

    quote:

    However in casual play, the bottom is going to want to get something worthwhile out of it. A partner who you have an ongoing relationship with will be more likely to agree to occasional sessions that they detest because they know their partner loves it. But that's because the two people care about each other. But in a one time play session, there's no reason to suffer through something you despise for a person you barely know.


    I second this!



    Hisprettybaby -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 2:39:26 PM)


    quote:


    in a one time play session, there's no reason to suffer through something you despise for a person you barely know.

    How true! But also, how many would play with someone they barely know? I know I wouldn't.



    littlewonder -> RE: Is it expected that a Dom will do the things you like? How much do you try to influence that? (10/29/2011 3:24:29 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: TheRoper

    The problem with that, for me, is that because I'm quite selective about who I play with, I tend to want them to come back for more punishment at some point.
    I know everyone is different and I know there'll be no single answer to this, but I want to get the general community feedback, would a scenario where you were being put through some hardship, possibly humiliating, just for the pleasure of the Dom to watch, be something you would... enjoy? put up with? detest?

    If it's something he has decided that he wants to do to me, then it happens whether I like it or not. I generally tend to get really aroused by whatever it is, even if it's something I detest, just because it's something that he wants.

    quote:

    On a more broad note, while talking with Dom's to sort out limits and interests, is it typical for a sub to try to guide the session? Driving the session from the spread eagle position while tied to a St. Andrews cross (blindfolded, and with more than one object protruding from various orifices) seems just a bit contradictory in roles to me. She was telling me what she wanted me to do to her next, when the understanding we had was one of strong and definite D/s roles...

    I never ever ever ever tell him what to do. We do what he wants. One of the biggest draws in all of this for me was to not have any control or choices. I get off on that. Having it be him who does the controlling is icing on the cake.

    quote:

    So I guess that also leads into the question of how temporary submission differs from a permanent arrangement. If you're just meeting with a Dom for a single session, is it more acceptable to try to guide what shape that will take? As above, of course, both parties have to get something out of it. But how strongly do you try to influence that? How much influence do you think the sub -should have- in how the session takes shape?

    I don't do any of this casually. Way back when Shorey and I were initially talking we talked about a million things, most had nothing to do with bdsm. It became apparent to us that we were a match on all kinds of levels, but the absolute one was our views on obedience. He says and I do. I never try to influence him, but I also never filter things. If I love something I tell him, whether we're talking about music, art or something really kinky. If I hate something I also tell him. He loves me and as a result a lot of the things we do together are a combo of things I love and things he loves.





    This. Pretty much sums us up.




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