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RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 6:28:22 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I was lucky, I WAS loved, and I had a (quasi)-normal family, and I was Still a hellion from about the age of 16-22 - I can only imagine what somebody who left home at 15 has seen (we don't even know why, and don't need to know, but life can be tough on the "streets" I hear). I am not sure of course this is even the situation here (only Not Me knows). I work with younger kids (under 12 mostly), but I do know for a fact that it can take a few years of "feeling safe" (being in a safe environment, where they know they are cared about) for them to see it and really believe it. When they finally believe that enough to feel it inside, then things happen like their grades start to go up, they care about their appearance, and other poeple, too. I have no idea if Not Me -this person, is making up for "lost time" - I think it's certainly possible.

The problem with being an adult (18 or older) and feeling all chaotic inside like this person is describing is that the rest of the world - the courts, schools, and/or employers, are NOT (usually) going to understand Why someone is doing X, Y or Z. They'll just fire your butt off your job, boot you out of school, or say "find somewhere else to live". Life can turn suddenly harder when one turns 18, especially for "wards of the state" or kids who've been living a "hand to mouth" existence. All this means, is it's time to at least fake shaping up until you start to feel it. Just do what your Master says, and see how it works - it will probably work better than not doing it is my guess (I don't know this Master, of course, but I am taking for granted he has this person's "best interests" at heart). - susannah

< Message edited by susannah -- 10/20/2004 6:30:20 PM >

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 7:02:10 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Midear Not You-

It's a long tough process. You really have to think about the person you want to be ( and I am getting from what you have written that you are not the person you want to be as things stand).

Make that person up in your mind- what they do in situations, what others think of them, how they feel about themselves...

Think about things you can do to be more like that person- little things, big things. Try doing some of them and see how it feels. Chances are that no one will notice but you, so what you think of yourself is going to be very important. I think that part of the problem is that you don't think well enough of yourself now.

It's a pretty good feeling, being the person that you want to be. Took me years to get to that point in my life, but it's worth the work.

Stay warm,
Lawrence


_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to NotMe)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 7:08:50 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		That is wonderful advice, I think. It sounds to me like Lawrence has been in your shoes, Not Me - I'd try it. - Susannah

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 7:50:57 PM   
lilninotchka


Posts: 121
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Not replying to anyone's post in particular here...i just wanted to say that the problem is probably a combination of more than one thing mentioned here already and it isn't always necessary to find out exactly why the behavior is occurring. It is necessary to take a long, honest look at what you truly want and decide whether or not you actually want to change your behavior. If that is what you truly want, topcat had an excellent suggestion - it will work whether you discover the underlying cause of the behavior or not, provided that cause is no longer present.

i don't think that the issues that susannah referred to in an earlier post (#17) are entirely about delayed gratification. That is just one of many possible issues that children from dysfunctional families may face. They commonly have self-esteem issues, fears of not getting needs met, perceived inability to love or be loved...they often try very hard, often subconsciously, to push away anyone who may 'go against' what they learned from their dysfunctional upbringing (ie someone who shows real concern for their wellbeing, loves them unconditionally, treats them nicely, provides for their actual needs, etc). Anyone who finds themselves in that spot and truly wants it different should remember the definition of insanity - "Doing the same thing, in the same way, over and over and expecting different results". Anything can be 'unlearned' if you care enough to put the necessary effort into it...and, as someone else here said, nobody else can do that for you, they can guide and support your efforts but the efforts do have to be your own...and yes, expect it to take years to accomplish.

i wish you all the luck with whatever you decide to do about your apparent unhappiness with this situation. i hope you can get it worked out soon.


(in reply to susannah)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 8:11:30 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		I agree, it's not entirely about delayed gratification. And Not Me has my empathy, and I think TopCat's advice is the way to go - even with therapy, the person still has to make changes on their own. She needs to see herself as a good person, he's right - the person she wants to be (and is probably inside, but maybe doesn't want to risk disappointing herself)? God bless and good luck, hang in there, you're "worth it".

Although my family was (mostly) normal we had our "dysfuctional" areas, and in my case, I saw a therapist for a few years in my early-mid twenties, but it still took me a few years to "get over" the minor "dysfunction in my own family. I really do consider myself lucky because - I've seen in little kids the results of real hard-core dysfunction. There was a 6-year old child last year in the facility I work in, who was not retarded, who had been kept in a room and not interacted with at all, for most of his 6 years. He could not talk, but mostly grunted and pointed - his "parents" (who don't even deserve the title) - had kept him in this room and not played or interacted with him at all for almost all of those 6 years. They fed him and gave him water - he wasn't even potty trained at 6 years old. The dad was a hard-core alcoholic and a petty criminal, and the mom (not her fault) was a schizophrenic. They had no semblance of anything anyone in their right mind would consider "normal" going on in their home (and I'm not "judging it" - I could have been that kid, I just lucked out as an "accident of birth", but no way should a kid live in that situation).

Anyway, one day I went to work and he (this kid) was gone from the facility - his parents had been having supervised visits with him only, but suddenly (my guess is it had to do w/Medicare funding running out for this child, I kid you not) the state had relinquished him to his parents! Because biological parenthood is/was considered "better" than any alternative (like foster care or adoption -at least until a few months ago when bad publicity exposed a few (major) "flaws" in the Nebraska child welfare system. This stuff makes me insane! I am digressing, but even when you think things in your own life really stink, they can always be worse, I guess. - susannah

< Message edited by susannah -- 10/20/2004 8:15:35 PM >

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to lilninotchka)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 8:36:01 PM   
kiki blue


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline 		Anyone who lives a D/s relationship will tell you that it's not always easy. Obeying isn't always as easy as it sounds, especially when you're told to do something that's hard for you. If you choose to get into a D/s relationship and agree to follow the rules laid out, and then break them as much as possible, you're disrespecting the relationship, your partner, and yourself. You do yourself no favours by being everything you say you hate. You say you're an honest person, but refuse to obey, and lie about your actions as much as possible? That's not submission, that's fraud.

The key to any successful relationship is to be true to yourself first, to understand yourself. Know what you need and want in a relationship. If you want a relationship that's only D/s in the bedroom, that's perfectly ok - just make sure your partner knows that. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole, just because you think that's what you should be like.

Figure out if you want someone else to own you and control you all the time. If not, speak up or get out. Either way, it sounds like you need to have serious conversations with your partner. I hate being lied to, and it can be a deal breaker for me. I give honesty, and expect it in return.

As the great Yoda said "Do or do not, there is no try".

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Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

(in reply to merrymasochist)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 8:36:49 PM   
lilninotchka


Posts: 121
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		It always makes me sad to hear of cases like that. i know the governments/agencies try, but some always slip through even the best planned out laws, funding, etc. Makes me want to be able to just go snatch those children up and take care of them myself...i can dream, right?

i think i lucked out on the other side of the coin. Not as bad as the child you desribe here, but not what i would call good either. i was married (18 years old) before i even began to realise that things that had happened in my life were definitely NOT normal, were considered very wrong by most of society and should never have been allowed to happen by any 'normal' 'loving' parent. i've been where this poster is and it is definitely not a fun place. It has taken a tremendous amount of effort and thought to get where i am now - first, to understand that having a submissive personality in general did not make it my fault, that my submissive personality was not a product of my upbringing (that is not always the case for everyone), etc, etc, etc

It's been worth the effort.

(in reply to susannah)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 9:00:56 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		You're right, and so is Kiki - maybe we're (I'm) getting off track here - dysfunctional families suck (and it sounds like yours was kinda bad, and you eventually "got over it", or at least on your way to something you wanted that was not destructive to you). Man, I don't know how some people do it, I really don't. But I guess if there's no alternative, you just keep on keeping on - although I have to admire some people's fortitude because some people really do "crack"' - my sister is a nurse and she almost quit Nursing school during her "rotation" on the child pysch ward - she couldn't believe the damage kids even under the age of five had due to what they'd been exposed to (she stayed in Nursing school, but she works now for an insurance company - some of us are "too empathic" for our own good. She's a sweetheart, though).

We don't even know how old this Not Me person is - if they are something like 19 (or maybe it's not an "age" thing, but a " life experience" thing) - maybe they just "landed" in this relationship, and it's "safe" (safer than what they're maybe used to anyway) - and they don't know if it's where they belong because they need to be themselves first, before they can "give themself" to someone else.

Sorry Not Me - don't mean to talk about you in the third person like you're not here, or make you feel you're under some kind of microscope - just trying to sincerely help. The original question was in reference to their behavior in a D/s relationship, so maybe that's what we need to talk to them about - and not knowing how old this person is, that's what most were responding to - like "what are you doing disobeying all the time?" (a reasonable question). I guess (how do I know) maybe they do need to decide if they want to be in the one they are in - but, they said they love their Master (even though they're not acting like it today). If they are young maybe they need lots of time to "be freee" before trying D/s at all? On the other hand, maybe it's great for them, and their Master thinks it will be fine? I do think regardless, they should do what TopCat said (great advice). Maybe then they'll be able to make up their mind what they want? Heck I don't know I am new here - but I do wish them sincere good luck. - Susannah

< Message edited by susannah -- 10/20/2004 9:03:49 PM >

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to lilninotchka)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 9:24:00 PM   
lilninotchka


Posts: 121
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		i guess we did get off-track with this, but it's really all related i think. No matter the age, understanding and changing behavior can't begin until it's realised that change is desired, in or out of any kind of relationship. i think maybe your final question here is key - Not Me should probably think hard about what they actually want...and be honest with themselves, if not their Master, at this point.

i hate to say it, but the possibility that Mercnbeth brought up is very much there also...perhaps they are self-identifying as 'slave' when they are not actually 'slave'. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody has suddenly discovered that they are on the 'wrong side' of things in a D/s relationship. Whatever it is, good luck with it - i'm sure you can use all the luck you can get right about now...

i will also apologise for the 'third person' language...the original post did say specifically 'anonymous' though...not much more anonymous than everybody speaking as if they weren't here

(in reply to susannah)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 9:43:10 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		God, that has to be a nightmare, if you've told someone you're a slave, because you have a set idea of what one is, maybe because (too early in your life) you were told that's what you were (who knows who told them this? She said her first Master was a mean bad person - who knows what their motives were? Snakes are out there... but I can see there are good people here whose advice I already trust.

What if she was dependent on this person because she ranaway from home and needed a place to stay and this person just brainwashed her into "you're my slave" (better than starving, probably, maybe not. I am scaring myself here). Maybe Not Me, you're not acting like it, granted (not today), but maybe it's not who you decided to be. Don't let anybody decide for you. Personally, I am settling for saying I have "tendencies" in that direction. Having very little experience, I know what I fantasize about, but sometimes I also know (have heard) fantasy does not survive contact with reality.

I realize self-assessment is considered by some to be a respected tool of whether someone is or is not what they claim to be, but doesn't it all depend on that person's frame of reference? If an idiot told her she's a slave, early in life, for their own warped reasons, then maybe she's not. I know slaves make their Master's will their own (as opposed to a sub having their own choices and meshing them with their Master's) - but if some idiot, mean nasty person told her when she was 13 or 15 or something that's what she was - heck, then she hasn't even had time to figure it out herself.

In any case, this Master sounds like he deserves to be in on the whole thought process and what Not Me is going through. I sincerely hope all goes well. I gotta go to bed now, though (can't believe I have been on my PC this long - I am in trouble now, hehe).

I will talk to ya'll soon - nice getting to know you. Sleep tight. - Susannah

< Message edited by susannah -- 10/20/2004 9:49:26 PM >

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to lilninotchka)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Bad Slave - 10/20/2004 11:14:19 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		What your doing is simply called topping from the bottom.. you have yet to give up control.. you are not in a state of willing obedience and these are consistent choices self aware choices you are making. I fail to see why you beat yourself up.. you for whatever reason are unable to comply.... simply stop.. your not at a place in which you can be what you say you are.. its not right in your heart/head .. there is no prize at the end of this rainbow..slavery isn't a status symbol.. there is nothing wrong with simply being who you are at this moment.. great bottom, fabulous kinky girl, vanilla girlfriend, collared submissive or owned slave whoever you are has to be good enough for you.. Dont try to be what someone else wants you to be.. be who you need to be for you.

being someone for someone else is just devastating and setting yourself up for failure.. and you are failing.. your failing him because he isn't getting what he thinks he is getting, your failing yourself because your not being honest... why make yourself unhappy.. be you.. be honest and be happy with yourself.. who knows where that path my lead you...

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 10/20/2004 11:16:12 PM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to susannah)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 11:21:25 AM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline 		All good answers and comments it looks like.
perhaps the simple answer tho is that you need a closer Master and one who is able to exact out of you that which you wish to give.

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to merrymasochist)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 11:39:02 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

you said that you were a 'lie down and die' type of slave to a uncaring Person before and obviously were dealt many hurts related to that relationship. Perhaps those hurts are still raw and unresolved? Buried and repressed issues such as these undermine our own self worth, which in turn cause us to feel undeserving of the gifts that later come into our lives.

Perhaps you don't feel deserving of your Master and are afraid that either A) you'll fail Him (so screw it up now before both of You get too attached type of mentality) or B) you'll dedicate yourself to Him completely only to find out that He was in fact not the wonderful Man that you thought He was (so hold out a part of yourself so you don't get hurt too badly mentality).

Ok, the thing is...

Neither of these two approaches work. If you use the former you'll never be happy not to mention that you'll be guilt ridden (as you already are) for the hurts that you inflict on others in your quest to self destruct the relationships you're involved in. As for the latter - no matter how much you try to hold back a part of yourself you will still be hurt should the relationship end whether it was for the reasons that you fear or whether it's a direct result of your inability to give of yourself.

What does work? First, if these are the reasons you're behaving as you are - realize it and keep it in context. When you fell driven to disobey stop and think about why you're doing it and ask if doing so is going to aid in your growth and that of the relationship with your Master (you already know the answer to that but think on it still). Second of all, follow through! Don't use your past as a crutch - doing so only disables your future!

Well wishes!

(in reply to merrymasochist)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 2:31:04 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

perhaps the simple answer tho is that you need a closer Master and one who is able to exact out of you that which you wish to give.


Or perhaps a Master period. In my mind a Master, actually Masters his sub/slave. If you have one that is completely out of control then there is something wrong within the relationship. Maybe it was just not meant to be. Perhaps he/she needs someone stronger who can actually take control?

(in reply to Kinkypupper)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 5:07:55 PM   
NotMe


Posts: 4
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline 		I feel like I should post a reply. I think there are alot of reasons why I am this way. Abuisve childhood? yes. Dysfunctional family? yes Bad people? yes. It hasnt been easy, but whose hasn't. I dont misbehave when ever i have the change. I do it periodically without thinking. 90 percent of the time the truth comes to light. I dont want to give too much info here, but will respond to emails. The past does haunt me. I thank you all for your responses and will take them all into consideration and will fix the mess as soon as i can. I wish i could speak freely, but as you all know, our Masters know us to well.


(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 6:28:02 PM   
IservBlkKingPaPa


Posts: 84
Joined: 8/17/2004
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi

well one reason this slave can think of is, you disobey, lie and sneak because you are more out to make yourself happy instead of making your master happy. this slave does not know how long you have been in the lifestyle but whoever initially trained you did not break you of "I".
Now that may sound to some subs like this slave speaks of losing your identity but what it really means is learning how to put others before yourself. A quality that even in the vanilla life is valued.
For example you disobey because you are more worried about yourself having to go without something that your master may restrict you from, so you sneak behind his back figuring what he doesn't know wont hurt him.
This slave is not critisizing you or insulting you, she has been there herself. If you really desire yourself to be a slave, then this is something you need to work on from within. Right now you are not a slave, right now you aren't a sub. Both of these require strength, honesty and communication. Qualities which at this point you do not possess. As of now you are a wannabe. That is not meant to be an insult, this slave is only stating facts. you wish to be either of these things but are neither. Also a submissive/slave takes constructive criticism with humility, not aggression. you also have to understand that this slave and other subs/slaves that post here probably have hard time hearing how it is that you treat your master. It goes against our grain, therefore you may meet confrontation.
In your post you stated that you are afraid to be honest with your master for fear of hurting him, so you sneak and lie. Which action do you think hurts him more? you need to think about that.

@}PaPa's}slave}--
Every Rose has her Thorns...

(in reply to merrymasochist)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 7:19:15 PM   
realophelia


Posts: 168
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NotMe
How dare a slave suggest she is having problems obeying and even doesnt obey? Quick answer for the mindless wits : She's not s slave! Write it off. But has nobody ever had a hard time obeying? Has nobody ever disobeyed? Has nobody had an issue before? Of course not, the world is populated with good lay down and die for you slaves. (no questions asked) Its something they just jump into and its easy as pie for them.


I have trouble obeying at times. So you're not the only one :) If you sincerely want to become a better slave, however, do try to tell your Master what's happening. He can't work with you if he doesn't know what's going on. You have to consider the personal cost of carrying secrets, as well, and the fact the most Masters value honesty over perfect obedience (in my experience).

Best wishes :)
Ophelia




(in reply to NotMe)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 7:26:43 PM   
slavewithnoname


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline 		First, how long have you been in the lifestyle? How long with this Master? Why do you consider yourself a slave as opposed to a submissive? How old are you? How old is your Master? And, as proudsub asked... is this an online relationship? If real life, do you live with him?
It sounds to me that you seem to be acting out to gain his control... but this also eludes defination as you say you lie and work your way out of punishments. Please tell me... what do you desire from or within the lifestyle? These are not the actions of a slave... maybe a slave is what you wish to be, but your actions speak diffrently. There is no price for honesty, but the price for dishonesty is painful and severe. Perhaps a bit of self-analysing is in order?
Please do be well and safe!
~slavegirl~

_____________________________

~I do not submit as a slave because I feel weak or insecure... I do it because I am strong enough to be that free.~

(in reply to merrymasochist)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 8:23:14 PM   
susannah


Posts: 79
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		Not Me -I imagine all of this advice might seem both helpful, and a bit overwhelming. I know if I'm in a "down on myself" mode, sometimes advice all sounds like criticism, and I would really feel bad for you if you use any to "beat yourself up." That's not the goal it sounds to me like you may be looking for (or what anyone would intend). It sounds like you were asking for information, which you are going to now take some time to digest.

I think you should be proud of yourself for seeking information you needed - some people in life don't bother, because it's "too much work" (and I am Not patronizing you). I didn't want to ask you outright for any personal information on the boards here, (and I never would) because I think that kind of information is just that: Personal. I think people should divulge only what they want or need to - otherwise, I am of the opinion it is nobody's business but theirs.

I am new to this lifestyle, and there are a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about it on these boards in particular (and many) areas. I appreciated reading it all, too, and I particularly really loved the advice that pointed in the direction of: "This is not a big deal, or a "contest" to see who is the best bsdm'er, or D/s life-styler" and that emphasized that you have plenty of time, and it's not a "life or death" matter. I loved the advice that recommended giving yourself a "method" to help you become more like the wonderful person you are by creating little ways to do it in your own head, and then trying them out.

One thing I read about people sometimes doing (and this I would only do if you're in the mood and feel like it sometime) is writing a story, something like a fairy tale, with you as the main character, and how you want that main character to develop. I am not joking, this is something I've heard can really be helpful to people. There is sometimes a "wicked witch" (or warlock) or two, in there, and maybe a helpful wizard or two, a couple of thunderstorms or volcanoes - you decide who each character is by giving the people and events who you feel shaped your life in a a positive or a negative way names and descriptions (and I'd give the bad ones as many warts and chin hairs as possible).

One person I know had a lot of fun with this, and it made them feel pretty good because the main character is always the person writing the story, and, of course, the heroine. I've heard it can be fun to maybe try sometime. I've seen it be helpful to more than one person I know. There is nothing "wrong" with you. Life is a process. If there is something you want to change, you can do it. No big deal. I think this is a legitimate life-style choice, but it's your choice, and a choice is what it should be. Relax, have a good time, and good luck!

- susannah

< Message edited by susannah -- 10/21/2004 11:50:42 PM >

_____________________________

" I had been my whole life a bell - and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck".

- Annie Dillard (1945 - )

(in reply to NotMe)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Bad Slave - 10/21/2004 11:32:42 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for writing this and seeking advice not me...
I have nothing to ad as I've already seen great notes from Suzanna, Gloria, Estring, etc, so heed them without getting too anxious and/or becoming defensive as it is great advice in my view...
I'm writing to thank you for writing, and taking it graciously, as it relates to problems I've encountered with sub/s and so I learned right along with you from a Domme's perspective.
Good luck, Lady in RI

(in reply to NotMe)
Profile   Post #: 40
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