The Spider and the Fly... (Full Version)

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Kirata -> The Spider and the Fly... (11/2/2011 10:43:01 PM)


Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been doing his best to rally support for an attack on Iran. But, of course, he'd rather that the U.S. do it. And now there's new information that will make our Western "End Times" hawks drool.
    Report: IAEA 'increasingly concerned' about possible Iran nuclear arms

    An International Atomic Energy Agency report, dated and leaked Friday, said Iran continues to defy U.N. resolutions aimed at curbing its nuclear program and cited "increasing" concerns it may be developing nuclear weapons...

    "The agency is increasingly concerned about the possible existence in Iran of past or current undisclosed nuclear-related activities involving military-related organizations," the report states. Specifically, it cites "new information" received by the IAEA "related to the development of a nuclear payload for a missile." "The information available to the agency in connection with these outstanding issues is extensive and comprehensive and has been acquired both from member states and through its own efforts," the report adds.

    Iran admitted to producing more than 4,500 kilograms of enriched uranium since 2007, almost enough to make four nuclear weapons, according to an ISIS analysis from David Albright, Paul Brannan, Andrea Stricker and Christina Walrond.
In the event that the U.S. takes action, Britain expects to be asked to contribute...
    UK military steps up plans for Iran attack amid fresh nuclear fears

    In anticipation of a potential attack [against Iran], British military planners are examining where best to deploy Royal Navy ships and submarines equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles over the coming months as part of what would be an air and sea campaign...

    At the weekend, the New York Times reported that the US was looking to build up its military presence in the region, with one eye on Iran.

    According to the paper, the US is considering sending more naval warships to the area, and is seeking to expand military ties with the six countries in the Gulf Co-operation Council: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Oman.
But here's what I think is the really interesting bit of news...
    Inside the Ring

    "China continues to provide Iran with what could be considered advanced conventional weapons," the report of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission says...

    The report also noted that, after Russia began cutting back arms transfers to Iran in 2008, China became the largest arms supplier to the Iranian military. Most of the weapons transfers involved sales of Chinese anti-ship cruise missiles, including C-802 missiles that China promised the United States in 1997 would not be exported to Iran.

    China also built an entire missile plant in Iran last year to produce the Nasr-1 anti-ship cruise missile.
Does anybody else see a game plan here? Whatever Iran may or may not be doing with regard to obtaining nuclear weapons, it's definitely seeking a confrontation and preparing for it with an arsenal of anti-ship missles. Here's the way I think it looks to play out.

The U.S. and Britain will move warships into the Persian Gulf to support and contain surgical strikes against Iran's nuclear capabilities. But, of course, the strikes will be against locations that are known and susceptible to air attack. All in all, Iran is unlikely to be badly hurt. But, it will have succeeded in drawing the U.S. and Britain into providing it with a large number of expensive targets for relatively cheap anti-ship missles, and an excuse to use them.

After littering the bottom of the Persian Gulf with U.S. and British warships, Iran will (correctly) proclaim a victory. And having demonstrated to the world that it faces a nuclear-armed adversary against which it requires a nuclear deterrance, all further attempts to prevent it from acquiring same will ring hollow.

If Iran does want nuclear weapons, it will then proceed without impediment to build (or reveal) several warheads almost immediately and establish itself as a nuclear power, in either case leaving the U.S. and Britain severely embarrassed and licking their wounds.

K.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 11:48:42 AM)

Thats the cloudiest crystal ball Ive ever seen.




MrRodgers -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 2:21:38 PM)

It being that any number of countries possibly dozens, known and unknown, already have nuke weapons (with or without missile delivery) one begins to realize that we set up a new defense in order to make yet more profit.

All wars cold & hot are a profit center, when it suits the west, the US will go to the UN get a resolution and with the support of most of the middle east...will have its new war. Iraq was the UN res. 'cherry buster' so the facts will not matter.

Do I want to see Iran with nukes ? In that the weapon cannot be dis-invented, there needs to be a real nuke cop on the beat but only sanctioned and originated by the UN and without equivocation. Even though a real world-wide blockade of Iranian life-support might do it and without war...I am not hopeful.




FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 6:13:46 PM)

If that is a game plan, it has serious flaws. Even in Israel,  Netanyah's sword waving isn't playing particularly well.


Then there is the Saudis and their Gulf buddies. As rough as their local politics are now, if the Persians and the Anglopsphere hold court in the Gulf, the oil tankers will be the losers, and likely the oil terminal and port facility's, if not even strikes on the oil fields, regardless which side prevails, and this would cause them very serious political problems on the home front.. Their cooperation would be needed.

And if the Persians have a military with some imagination, they might go "liberate" Southwestern Afghanistan with some of their legions of bored ground troops, just to make life interesting for their enemy. Then there is Iraq.




Owner59 -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 6:33:16 PM)

Oil is the reason Israel will not attack Iran.

Oil shipping in the region would end.

Oil would become scarcer and the price will double,triple and beyond.

The Arabs who could still ship, will cut our asses off.Our economy would crash.

And Israel would lose just about every friend sympathetic or otherwise in the world.As well, their economy would crash.

It`s really hard to fathom how it is that our warmongers dream and lust for such a catastrophe and get hard-ons thinking about it.

The same way they did just before invading Iraq.

Hopefully, they don`t get near the levers of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

Those cowards aren`t going to be the ones in harm`s way and dying.





popeye1250 -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 7:06:23 PM)

We need to sit this one out.
Let the Israelis and Europe handle Iran.




FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 7:41:46 PM)

The one who woudl be hit would be the Asians (including OZ and New Zealand) and the EU.

And the EU is high on the public of Iran ally China's major devil list right now, which has caused the CCP to announce they will not be the EUropeans savior as it is, thus interfering with the oil to China and Japan (and Oz, India  And New Zealand) would be the thing thing to do if you wanted to light Asia off. And the Sauds and their puppets woudl have to be spending their money on food imports and repairing  things as a result, and would not have any money to buy those shiny new EUrobonds, or competitively bid on or finance things like Libyan oil fields., or this Arab "Marshall Plan" which was hoped to start things off right among the Arab Springs.

I doubt it would affect North America initially but the back blast would cook the 4th Reich's pretty thoroughly, where the foreign investment they desperately need from the Gulf SWFs and China and Japan become closed to them.






Edwynn -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 7:49:17 PM)


This is quite interesting, K.

Uranium sales is big business, Canada and Australia being large exporters of that commodity. This would indicate some British interest in this matter.

In any event, there is so much going on in Iran. Mr. PajamaPants (OK, Amajinidad, for those who insist) seems to be always in battle with the Clergy. They don't like him at all, but he is still there because he antagonizes the West better than the Clergy themselves could do. On a micro econ side-note; PajamaPants (Amajinidad) raised the price of gasoline in Iran because they kept having to import gasoline because the state-subsidized price was so low it could not support domestic refineries. That is changing.

As to China: they have been two, three, four steps ahead of the Brits and the US in obtaining long term contracts on oil and mining from Africa and South America, especially oil and rare earth minerals. They cut off the rest of the world from the rare earths (not entirely) after they had secured enough sources elsewhere. That's what smart countries do, even if this be a rare example in the case of the Chinese.


China took almost 30 years to bring a 1992 former Soviet aircraft carrier to operational status, but the Western press had LOTS of fun with that one. "BOOO!" One ship, we are to be held as shaking in our boots, now

As to the currency issue: there is no how, no way that China can sustain the artificial propping of the renmimbi (or yuan) with out serious detriment to their domestic economy. The problem is, they are just now trying to get a grasp on WTF a 'domestic economy' is to begin with. For those who care about either the US or China, please join me in putting foot to throat of the congressbitches calling for devaluation of the yuan. It was already happening on it's own before the financial meltdown, it was just about to come into the FX market as a free entity of it's own ... but, well, ... just ask the US Senate how the latest effort got screwed up.

That's all for now.

I'm exasperated.










FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 8:20:19 PM)

While the British royals own or control a large amount of the uranium in the Commonwealth, and conspiracy theorists have a lot of fun with this fact, I can't see that would be a major issue.

The former Soviet Union and its modern incarnations also have a pile in their lands, as do others.

List of countries by uranium production

Iran even has its own uranium mines.




kdsub -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 8:37:17 PM)

War has many surprises... they may in fact sink some ships...or... More likely their rather slow and low tech missiles could be intercepted and destroyed. Then their launching facilities and their command and control centers. What will that gain them...don't you think that is a very real possibility?

All I can say is I hope you are wrong and we never need to find out how good their missiles are. Iran is a nation of people that are mostly pro-western led by anti-American religious fanatics that feel their lifestyle threatened. Given time and support the people will eventually overthrow their government.

Butch




Edwynn -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 9:00:37 PM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

While the British royals own or control a large amount of the uranium in the Commonwealth, and conspiracy theorists have a lot of fun with this fact, I can't see that would be a major issue.




All fine and well, insofar as no one in this thread has spoken of conspiracy other than yourself.

Was it the economic stuff that pulled the trigger there? Sorry about that.

I got pretty good grades on my papers about the Chinese economy at the uni, though I can understand that rigorous treatment of a subject doesn't always go over so well in 'net forums.







FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 9:21:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

While the British royals own or control a large amount of the uranium in the Commonwealth, and conspiracy theorists have a lot of fun with this fact, I can't see that would be a major issue.




All fine and well, insofar as no one in this thread has spoken of conspiracy other than yourself.

Was it the economic stuff that pulled the trigger there? Sorry about that.

I got pretty good grades on my papers about the Chinese economy at the uni, though I can understand that rigorous treatment of a subject doesn't always go over so well in 'net forums.






It was long term outright Anglo-European and Russian meddling that built the Persian  knuckleheads. Get about any history of Iran and start reading from the 1850s onward.

All part of the Great Game (Tournament of Shadows)

Look at Iran and its Islamic Revolution as a predecessor to those "Arab Springs" going on now.




Edwynn -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 9:34:45 PM)




Now THAT I can understand. Why didn't you just say that in the first place rather than tossing off the first sentence of whatever I said and ignoring the rest?


Got no interest in China, huh?


Oh, except that you said that China was Iran's partner in hating Europe. I missed that one here. Not to say that their mutual agreement to trade oil in Euros rather than US $ would deny what you said on its own, but ...


Any regards, I still think that K's OP is interesting, and I actually had to grasp a bit to respond to it.






tazzygirl -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 9:38:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Thats the cloudiest crystal ball Ive ever seen.




You haven't gotten past your first grade reader yet. You are not allowed to invite yourself into an adult discussion.



Willbe and I dont see eye to eye on many issues... and we have pissed each other off to no end on more than one ocassion (though I am sure the onery cuss will deny I ever pissed him off)

But where the hell do you come off telling anyone they dont have the right to post on a thread? When did you become a Mod?

You come across as times as rather intelligent... then you blow it with crap like that. Snark here is an art form.... perhaps you should settle back and learn it.




FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 9:43:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Now THAT I can understand. Why didn't you just say that in the first place rather than tossing off the first sentence of whatever I said and ignoring the rest?


Got no interest in China, huh?


Oh, except that you said that China was Iran's partner in hating Europe. I missed that one here. Not to say that their mutual agreement to trade oil in Euros rather than US $ would deny what you said on it's own, but ...


Any regards, I still think that K's OP is interesting, and I actually had to grasp a bit to respond to it.






Er, you missed the link I embedded where the Chinese public is openly criticizing any further investment in the EU.

Here is another one - China's people have a clear message for their government -- don't even think of saving Europe.

quote:

"The average wage of Chinese workers is a few U.S. dollars. The average wage of European workers is thousands of euros. Do they need China to rescue them?" wrote a microblogger identifying himself as "philosopher's journey."

"This is the people's blood and sweat money that is being used to bail out gluttonous and lazy Greeks," read a microblog posting by Sean Wu.


Make their oil prices double while attacking their ally to do so is a real good plan.




Edwynn -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 10:08:50 PM)



Yes, it is entirely possible that I missed the link in your prior posts about the Chinese hating Europe, being as that they never existed in such posts. Congrats on finally getting caught up on the issue in your most recent post.

In any event; what are the Chinese doing to bail out Europe? Oh, would that have anything to do with the G 20? The club that China was begging to get into for decades? So, how's that "welcome to the club" thing working out for you there, China?

The Euro countries are carping about the US rating agencies (rightfully so),  US citizens are carping about bailing out the US, Europe is carping about bailing out Europe.

All China does is undersell everybody else. If they have to fund the process of that, then so be it. They can disinvite themselves from the WTO and the G 20 anytime they like, if they've got an issue with Europe or the US or anybody else they've been pestering the f*ck out of for the last 30 years.









FirstQuaker -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 10:27:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Yes, it is entirely possible that I missed the link in your prior posts about the Chinese hating Europe, being as that they never existed in such posts. Congrats on finally getting caught up on the issue in the most recent post.
.
In any event; what are the Chinese doing to bail out Europe? Oh, would that have anything to do with the G 20? The club that China was begging to get into for decades? So, how's that "welcome to the club" thing working out for you there, China?

The Euro countries are carping about the US rating agencies (rightfully so),  US citizens are carping about bailing out the US, Europe is carping about bailing out Europe.

All China does is undersell everybody else. If they have to fund the process of that, then so be it. They can disinvite themselves from the WTO and the G 20 anytime they like.


Yes, you noticed there was nothing about hate either.

Moving right along, a major player Kirata's OP did not contain, France, is also a major player in this sword waving -
French envoy to UN does not specify who would carry out strike, but warns attack would have 'disastrous consequences in the region.'
Sarkozy likely has little to lose and is tossing dice, chances are his party and him are gonna be taking a beating in the upcoming French elections.




Edwynn -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 10:59:46 PM)



What was enlightening to me, 1st Quaker, when in my world econ class we saw the list (quite a long list) of what amount of pyjamas, t-shirts, socks, etc. and the allotment thereby, as allowed to be imported from these different countries. The correspondence of this list to that of "the coalition of the willing," as it was described at the time, was 'instructive,' to say the least.





Termyn8or -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 11:17:18 PM)

"Does anybody else see a game plan here? "

I see Russia not tipping her hand. I see that there are two very powerful countries in the game that do not play by Israel/US/UK rules, and Iran is cozying up to them. Quite successfully I might add. With all these treaties and financial ties, Russia and China supply Iran with weapons ? Fucking people don't seem to even think of that.

It's partly US hubris, we are number one. Well number one, let's try a war with Russia and China, and their new buddy Iran. Along with a shitload of other countries by the way.

And you have a vision of this bullshit to come ? Consider this : If Russia, China and a few other countries ally themselves, I'll bet the eastern seaboard that Israel will switch sides.

Courtries do not live forever my friends.

T^T




Kirata -> RE: The Spider and the Fly... (11/3/2011 11:58:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

More likely their rather slow and low tech missiles could be intercepted and destroyed. Then their launching facilities and their command and control centers. What will that gain them...don't you think that is a very real possibility?

The U.S. Navy employs a layered defense against anti-ship missles, consisting first and foremost of stand-off air power to detect and neutralize hostile aircraft and vessels making an approach to the battle group. Operating in the Persian Gulf off the Iranian coastline, this will be useless. Ground launched anti-ship missiles along the coast would be undetectable until they light up their targeting radar. And close-in defenses like the Navy's Phalanx system can easily become overwhelmed by multiple incoming targets.

Not only that, but the technological sophistication of the Iranian missiles is unlikely to be low-tech. I couldn't find any reliable information about Iran's newest missile, aside from Iranian bragging (see link at end). But China has been working hard at developing highly advanced anti-ship systems (see inset below), and prior to China becoming its primary supplier Iran is known to have purchased an undisclosed number of Russian Sunburn anti-ship missiles. The Sunburn is a supersonic (Mach 2.1 at sea-level) anti-ship missile that carries a 700 pound high-explosive armor-piercing warhead and executes violent end maneuvers to defeat predictive-position targeting by close-in defense systems.

    The Ying-Ji-802 land attack and anti-ship cruise missile [Western designation SACCADE], is an improved version of the C-801 which employs a small turbojet engine in place of the original solid rocket engine. The weight of the subsonic (0.9 Mach) Yingji-802 is reduced from 815 kilograms to 715 kilograms, but its range is increased from 42 kilometers to 120 kilometers. The 165 kg. (363 lb.) warhead is just as powerful as the earlier version. Since the missile has a small radar reflectivity and is only about five to seven meters above the sea surface when it attacks the target, and since its guidance equipment has strong anti-jamming capability, target ships have a very low success rate in intercepting the missile. The hit probability of the Yingji-802 is estimated to be as high as 98 percent. The Yingji-802 can be launched from airplanes, ships, submarines and land-based vehicles, and is considered along with the US "Harpoon" as among the best anti-ship missiles of the present-day world. (Reference: FAS)
So no, I think there is virtually zero chance that our ships would face only "rather slow and low tech missiles". I think they could very well find themselves facing an enveloping malestrom of very fast very nasty ship killers.

October 1, 2011: Iran Introduces the Qader, an Enhanced, Locally Produced Version of the C-802 Anti-Ship Missile

K.





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