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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 5:28:52 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
But ...

You missed my point about the valve amps and huge speakers in a cinema!

Many a "midnight movie" as was popular here in the states from ~ '70s onwards were played through such systems. Woodstock, Altamont, Monterrey, etc. of course were shown, but also "alternative" movies too, don't ask me to remember even 10 % of them now. Elton John's "Friends" was the theme to a movie of the same name. Movies such as "Catch 22," "The Graduate," the truly fun movie "Blowup," (the Yardbirds and Jane Birkin, all in one movie, though I did not realize the importance of the latter, but neither did she at the time), several Robert Altman movies, like "Brewster McCloud," etc.. Lots of others, but one I recall is "Harold And Maude."

Some of these latter exhibitions made the 15 yr. olds quit trying to figure out where we could touch each other and just watch the movie.

Interesting point about the sound quality in old cinemas. I know some cinemas continued to use 1930's Western Electric valve (translation: "tube" to the yanks) amplifiers until the 1980's which got Lucas in a fit of knotts. The ones best known today are the WE amps that produced a grand total of 9 watts. They used 300B valves which are now a hi-fi legend!

quote:

Speaking of sex and confusion: why did you Brits ban this song when it was on the airwaves in '69, and us US'ens only heard it a few times? (OK, I know that you hate the French, but aside from that):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2C98G-9rJk&feature=related

Well that could be the very point: it was probably banned because it was made by a grubby Frenchie who had his dirty foreign hands on an English rose. That and the sex sounds...

BTW you think I'm British?

quote:

But as to the valve amps: whatever you Brits might have forgotten, I can assure you that there are many thousands of Japanese audiophile wackos, and some few US audiophile wackos that would take any of those Quad or Leak amps off your hands, anytime, iff'n you don't want them or anything.

Speaking of the Japanese, they are the ones that charge up to 20k USD for a phono cartridge, I kid you not. I told you they were audiophile wackos.

The classic amps by Leak and Quad were forgotten for a long time as you suggest and commanded huge prices in Japan. However things have changed a lot since the 90's. Many Japanese are mad about audio but they were proved right because low power valve technology and high efficiency speakers have made a huge comeback. My own amps were partly influenced by that move. They are a pair of big heavy triode monoblocks that output a grand total of 15 watts per speaker as they use RCA valves from the early 30's. The amps have an intensity with all kinds of music that made the price worthwhile. Compressed recordings like Hendrix's earliest stuff really comes to life unlike with good tranny amps.

quote:

But here is a much better example of the culture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12aLC0azql4&feature=related

She wears a school uniform in this video and others because she want's to match the attire in the cartoons she is playing the music to, but I'll have to start another thread to treat this matter properly.

She is quite special.

Good drumming. I hope she is of an appropriate age.

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 7:27:16 AM

Edwynn

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Sorry if I accused falsely as to nationality. I know the feeling. I sometimes get referred to as a "yank" or something.

But, if I could put it as most people who hear me talk in person for two minutes would put it:

"What planet are you from?" Actually, just 'country of origin' would work OK here.

In any case, I ran projectors back in the 80's and it was all SS by that time, so valves were not the issue with Lucas, it was the inconsistency of the surround speakers' placement (if placed at all), the inconsistency of post sound out of the studios, several other issues, but at bottom (no pun needed) was the lack of capability for reproduction of the lowest frequency WHUMP! when a Star Wars ship landed, or something got blown up. Hollywood has always been about "action," "chase scenes," etc., but there are a LOT more things getting blown up in today's movies, so a substantial sub-woofer system is needed. While we're at it, there was no capability for surround with the existing two track optical sound as standard. Three track magnetic sound was available on only a few 35 MM films, to selected cities. But the reason you wanted to go see a film advertised as being 70 MM was not just because the picture was bigger, (Cinemascope et al. could do that, albeit with different aspect ratio), but because ALL 70 MM film uses six track magnetic sound. Optical sound was limited to ~ 12kHz, but we know what magnetic can do. The last of those I ran was Dick Tracy (Warren Beatty, et al.). Forget the crashes and stuff, just the dialog was SO much better.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/10/2011 7:32:40 AM >

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 10:31:16 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
In any case, I ran projectors back in the 80's and it was all SS by that time, so valves were not the issue with Lucas, it was the inconsistency of the surround speakers' placement (if placed at all), the inconsistency of post sound out of the studios, several other issues, but at bottom (no pun needed) was the lack of capability for reproduction of the lowest frequency WHUMP! when a Star Wars ship landed, or something got blown up. Hollywood has always been about "action," "chase scenes," etc., but there are a LOT more things getting blown up in today's movies, so a substantial sub-woofer system is needed. While we're at it, there was no capability for surround with the existing two track optical sound as standard. Three track magnetic sound was available on only a few 35 MM films, to selected cities. But the reason you wanted to go see a film advertised as being 70 MM was not just because the picture was bigger, (Cinemascope et al. could do that, albeit with different aspect ratio), but because ALL 70 MM film uses six track magnetic sound. Optical sound was limited to ~ 12kHz, but we know what magnetic can do. The last of those I ran was Dick Tracy (Warren Beatty, et al.). Forget the crashes and stuff, just the dialog was SO much better.

Thanks. You would be right that valve technology wasn't common in the 80's. I wasn't involved in the industry or anything but the old technology appears to have had a presence if accounts can be believed. I recall reading about Lucas going mad in the early 80's when he visited a cinema that reproduced the sound with a 1930's PA system! At the time some of the old Western Electric 300b cinema amps, that now go for many thousands, are said to have been in service and Western Electric kept manufacturing the 300b until 1987 when that tube had no other application in audio so maybe there is some truth to what I read. Interesting that 70 MM had a greater number of soundtracks as you say. I thought some two channel optical soundtracks use four channel Dolby Stereo matrixed onto it. Cinema sound is pretty decent good today. I reckon it improved in the 90s but I feel sound engineers often put in too many bangs and thumps. lol

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 11/10/2011 10:35:38 AM >

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 11:52:54 AM

Edwynn

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Well hey, I wasn't meaning to dispute your account of it outright, just conveying some other information. The story you relate has that 'twinge' of apocrypha, but at the same time, it fits entirely within other experiences I've had in running sound in various situations. Especially regarding directors. More wacky stories there than I could relate properly.

Anyways, the venerable WE 300B amps aren't known for diving into the deepest of lows, nor reaching into the stratosphere at the top end, maybe what Lucas found irritating. As we know, the audio aficionados sing praises to "the magic midrange" of the 9 watt 300B SET amps. Those that are into such things sometimes go for the 3 watt 2A3 amps, while the really snobby crowd go for the 1.5-2 watt 45 tube amps, but even they are merely the hoi palloi as compared to the only real thing worth listening to; an amp based on the 10 valve, with a mighty 1 watt output power.

Makes me curious, though, what valve your amp is based on. The 15 watts brings some Magnavox or Eico EL84 PP amp to mind, but I'm sure that's not what you are speaking of in this case.

But in any event, yes you are right about surround being available on nominally 2 track optical, Dolby having the patent on the coding for that. See what happens? You run sound for too many shows all in normal stereo before, during, and long after running projectors for a few years, and you forget little details like that.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/10/2011 12:06:38 PM >

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 2:10:45 PM

Anaxagoras

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Its cool, its interesting to share this info. I read the Lucas story in a hi-fi magazine of repute but can’t back it up with another source. It seemed to fit though as the early WE sound systems appear to have been used even into the 80’s!

You seem pretty familiar with the specialist triodes! Very true the 300b is greatest in its midrange. The tube would have been driven hard so wouldn’t have been in an ideal situation driving an entire theatre lol. The triode was really the first proper amplifying device but disappeared commercially in the 1950’s with the demand for greater power as triodes are very inefficient but it was a shame as it is the most linear least distorting amplifying device around. So linear in fact that it doesn’t require negative feedback. There does seem to be a bit of snobbery about how rare and how little power a given tube delivers. The 2A3 does seem to sound a little quicker and clearer than the 300b. The 45 might be great too as it’s an older ½ power 2A3 but haven’t heard it. A british tube called the PX-25 is great too.

My amp is a triode valve amp too without use of negative feedback. It is an unusual configuration. It uses the 2A3 but in parallel push-pull (4 tubes) operating in full class A. It produces a fair bit of heat and each monoblock weighs 20 KGs due to big transformers. It was made by a UK company called Audio Innovations in the 1990’s.

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 8:18:29 PM

Edwynn

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A quad of 2A3 per side. That has to be one of the coolest amps ever. I knew I despised you for a reason.

Not that I hadn't contemplated such a thing in my own mind, but I'd never heard of one being put into practice prior to this. "Way cool" as they say. Now I have to go all over looking for high efficiency speakers again. I actually had a pair of Klipsch Heresies ('83 built) and a pair of .... Altec 604 B (dual concentric, like Tannoys) cabinets at one time. Almost, but not quite as cool as a full blown 2A3 amp that would make grandma and the nephew or niece all happy. At least that's how 2A3 amps always struck me. You might know that Paul Klipsch took a 10 watt dual 2A3 PP amp (mono, of course!) on tour to demonstrate the Klipsch horns in the 50's.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/10/2011 9:04:33 PM >

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/10/2011 9:54:47 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
One of my brothers used to work in the Boston Garden so he got a bunch of us in for free!
Edgar or Johnny Winters (the albino) opened for him and 10 minutes into his set there was a big commotion down on the main floor and a few minutes later all the lights went on and there were a bunch of Hell's Angels fighting with another bike group and the Boston cops were wacking them with wooden billy clubs and the music just went on! lol That went on for about 15 minutes.

Makes sense, no need to disrupt the music when a few bikers are getting some sense knocked into their heads!

BTW Johnny Winters was quite the blues guitarist.

Anax, it was more than a few, about 200 I think. And there must have been a hundred Boston cops too.

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/11/2011 5:17:57 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: humptiedumptie
Great link

Thanks Humptie. When it comes to listening to old gigs I guess a deal breaker for me is bad sound quality. Its good for this gig in my opinion although it does get a bit distorted here and there presumably as levels jumped unexpectedly. I feel its better than the other two or three long gigs on Youtube or at least the first Stockholm gig and the one from the Royal Albert Hall anyway. The latter was intended for an LP but didn't happen at the time as it was reputedly a disappointment.

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RE: 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience concert! - 11/11/2011 5:19:58 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
A quad of 2A3 per side. That has to be one of the coolest amps ever. I knew I despised you for a reason.

Not that I hadn't contemplated such a thing in my own mind, but I'd never heard of one being put into practice prior to this. "Way cool" as they say. Now I have to go all over looking for high efficiency speakers again. I actually had a pair of Klipsch Heresies ('83 built) and a pair of .... Altec 604 B (dual concentric, like Tannoys) cabinets at one time. Almost, but not quite as cool as a full blown 2A3 amp that would make grandma and the nephew or niece all happy. At least that's how 2A3 amps always struck me. You might know that Paul Klipsch took a 10 watt dual 2A3 PP amp (mono, of course!) on tour to demonstrate the Klipsch horns in the 50's.

Thanks for saying so - maybe not quite one of the coolest amps ever but yeah pretty cool nonetheless. They used to use that configuration for record cutting heads that required power but also linearity. The first version of the Klipsch Heresies had some sonic problems although the later editions (perhaps yours if 1983 vintage) started to iron those issues out. The Altec 604 B is a real classic that collectors pay $$$ for these days. Very nice as Borat would say!

Indeed Paul Klipsch used Brook 2A3 amps to design and test his speakers! This was at a time when much more efficient beam tetrode and pentode power valves were popular because they delivered double the watts for the same money but they lacked the real purity of triode power valves. Brook used a sliding bias circuit to switch from Class A push-pull (neither tube switches off) from about 5 watts to Class AB push-pull to get 10+ watts out of two 2A3’s.

Interestingly Brook was pretty much the last manufacturer to make those sort of amps commercially. They went under in the mid-1950’s and amps with power triodes disappeared for about 30 years until Audio Innovations brought out a 7.5 watt push-pull 2A3 amp circa 1986! Absolute linearity was important without the use of feedback so those amps functioned in full Class A1 throughout. This was at a time when all high end amps had a high wattage so a lot of audiophiles were shocked at the price of such a low power amp but it was a commercial success due to its remarkable sound quality. Then the popular return of the power triode came about in the 90’s and the rest is history!

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