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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/12/2011 8:55:25 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

That should have been "ya'll."

No, no, no... it's "y'all."

But actually, I was commenting on him branding me a "conservative" when many of my views are so liberal that I qualify as a spawn of Satan Himself. Unfortunately, some individuals have a tendency to assume that if you criticize their stupid and ill-founded arguments then you can only be a supporter of the opposing view. That isn't necessarily true, however. Sometimes one just hates to watch a position one espouses being embarrassed by idiots.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/12/2011 9:12:25 AM >

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/12/2011 1:06:26 PM   
Edwynn


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I hereby pronounce myself as busted for misspelling "y'all."

But I at least understand the term. My nine yr.old (IL born) niece asked me to explain it one time. Who could deny the wonderful (and quite intentional) snark at such an early age, and not love it? Once I explained the difference to her between "you" and "y'all" she very much appreciated not having to be associated with her brother on every occasion. 

'When I say "you," I actually mean "you," sweety, not you and your brother (if both standing in the same room), no confusion on the matter. If I'm talking to you both I say "y'all."  '

"Y'all get in the car, we're going to the store now."

They understand.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/12/2011 1:39:40 PM >

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/12/2011 7:03:48 PM   
Edwynn


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But if you say "Y'all are going to Phipps Plaza today" (Atl.),  you would be AMAZED at how quickly kids learn various dialects or regional differences.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/12/2011 7:35:01 PM >

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 2:09:53 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Edited To Ask : Why is this in politics & religion ?

Because it raises the question if liberals are more intelligent than conservatives, are they also closer to being autistic?

(just spitballing here)

K.



Gee Kirata, it'd be nice to see slavemike and rulemylife get some treatment.

It would be far better to see conservatives become intelligent. Stupidity seems to be intractible, however.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 2:41:01 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Any advancement in the understanding of autism is greatly appreciated by my family.  My brother has three children, 2 boys who have been diagnosed with autism when they were 2 yrs. old and 18 months old and a girl, 11, who was recently diagnosed with Asperger's--which is on the autism spectrum.  In my reading about the autism spectrum disorders, I have become convinced, as some scientists are, that autism, like several forms of mental illness, tend to run in families.  Not only that, but there is a commonality between the two. 

Autism and mental illness are both a result, possibly, of a sort of re-wiring in the brain while in utero.  Though most forms of mental illness do not become apparent until late teens or early twenties, autism disorders usually are diagnosable in toddlers.  My mother's side of the family has a long history of both disorders--both diagnosed and undiagnosed.  That my niece has a different mother than my nephews suggests that if it is familial, it comes from my family.  And oddly enough, since I started working in the mental health field, I have had more than one clinician ask me if I have ever been tested for Asperger's.  Apparently, they think it would be fairly easy diagnosis in me, though at my age, I do not see the benefit in getting tested.

It's not a "spectrum", it's a 3D "continuum". It's a mistake to think of Autism in terms of a Cartesian Gaussian distribution. It's more appropriate to think of it in terms of 3 axes... the z axis is the thinking "mode" which ranges from completely verbal to completely visual... I can't explain it, but I can visualize it a la a Fast Fourier Transform graph of a speaker's frequency response (2D: frequency vs. amplitude, plus the added dimension of spatial location of the listener/measuring device). I think Term can grasp what I'm getting at...

"Normals" think that we have some kind of condition that needs treatment, sort of like some really fucked-up Fundies think "gay" is a mental illness.

I don't think so.

Take six matchsticks. Make 3 equilateral triangles with them. Don't ask anyone; don't look online for the solution. Try and figure it out for yourselves. It's a great bar bet. Why? Because the great majority of people will be stumped. The solution came to me right away. Why? Because I think differently.

There are many ways in which I wish I were similar to most other people, primarily in the areas of "social" intelligence. But I would not wish to think like a "Normal".

TED Talk about Autism


< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 11/13/2011 2:42:02 AM >


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 2:47:10 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

That should have been "ya'll."

No, no, no... it's "y'all."

But actually, I was commenting on him branding me a "conservative" when many of my views are so liberal that I qualify as a spawn of Satan Himself. Unfortunately, some individuals have a tendency to assume that if you criticize their stupid and ill-founded arguments then you can only be a supporter of the opposing view. That isn't necessarily true, however. Sometimes one just hates to watch a position one espouses being embarrassed by idiots.

K.




You know, this is something that I have observed about you. You don't fit into any convenient "classifications". You think for yourself, which is a rare attribute.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 6:22:23 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
"Normals" think that we have some kind of condition that needs treatment, sort of like some really fucked-up Fundies think "gay" is a mental illness.

I don't think so.

Autism needs to be treated since in many individuals it results in a completely non functional person. Any condition that causes someone to be completely dependent on outside help for their entire life is very much a condition for which treatments are needed.

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 1:58:45 PM   
erieangel


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I used the word 'spectrum' as clinicians and others use it.  I've never heard of autism referred to as a 3D continuum.  Interesting perspective.  I'll have to research when I have more time.  As for treatment, I think the only treatment needed for autism really should be in the people with autism learning how to deal with the world around them so that they can be "accepted" and live "normal" lives. 

Notice how I put those words in quotations?  It is because as a person with mental illness, I don't think anything is "normal".  We all just go around with some sort of mask in our daily lives.  And I do mean all of us--every last one of us.

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 3:20:39 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I used the word 'spectrum' as clinicians and others use it.  I've never heard of autism referred to as a 3D continuum.  Interesting perspective.  I'll have to research when I have more time.  As for treatment, I think the only treatment needed for autism really should be in the people with autism learning how to deal with the world around them so that they can be "accepted" and live "normal" lives. 

Notice how I put those words in quotations?  It is because as a person with mental illness, I don't think anything is "normal".  We all just go around with some sort of mask in our daily lives.  And I do mean all of us--every last one of us.


I'm sorry but the autistic who is completely nonverbal and amost completely nonsocial who has bouts of violence against themselves and against caregivers certainly needs more treatment than coping strategies.

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 3:34:01 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I used the word 'spectrum' as clinicians and others use it.  I've never heard of autism referred to as a 3D continuum.  Interesting perspective.  I'll have to research when I have more time.  As for treatment, I think the only treatment needed for autism really should be in the people with autism learning how to deal with the world around them so that they can be "accepted" and live "normal" lives. 

Notice how I put those words in quotations?  It is because as a person with mental illness, I don't think anything is "normal".  We all just go around with some sort of mask in our daily lives.  And I do mean all of us--every last one of us.


I'm sorry but the autistic who is completely nonverbal and amost completely nonsocial who has bouts of violence against themselves and against caregivers certainly needs more treatment than coping strategies.

You make a very good point. I wonder, though, if there are not comorbidities which are the cause of such extreme disfunctionality, and whether "autism" isn't being used as a convenient Dx; that is to say, that the word becomes, in such cases, a type of shorthand which identifies a much more complex reality. I don't know if I am expressing what I mean to say clearly enough.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 3:49:22 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I used the word 'spectrum' as clinicians and others use it.  I've never heard of autism referred to as a 3D continuum.  Interesting perspective.  I'll have to research when I have more time.  As for treatment, I think the only treatment needed for autism really should be in the people with autism learning how to deal with the world around them so that they can be "accepted" and live "normal" lives. 

Notice how I put those words in quotations?  It is because as a person with mental illness, I don't think anything is "normal".  We all just go around with some sort of mask in our daily lives.  And I do mean all of us--every last one of us.


I'm sorry but the autistic who is completely nonverbal and amost completely nonsocial who has bouts of violence against themselves and against caregivers certainly needs more treatment than coping strategies.

You make a very good point. I wonder, though, if there are not comorbidities which are the cause of such extreme disfunctionality, and whether "autism" isn't being used as a convenient Dx; that is to say, that the word becomes, in such cases, a type of shorthand which identifies a much more complex reality. I don't know if I am expressing what I mean to say clearly enough.

Sure autism is well known to often include other illnesses and in some cases those other conditions are the issue but there are cases where there isn't anything else diagnosed.

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 5:15:18 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I used the word 'spectrum' as clinicians and others use it.  I've never heard of autism referred to as a 3D continuum.  Interesting perspective.  I'll have to research when I have more time.  As for treatment, I think the only treatment needed for autism really should be in the people with autism learning how to deal with the world around them so that they can be "accepted" and live "normal" lives. 

Notice how I put those words in quotations?  It is because as a person with mental illness, I don't think anything is "normal".  We all just go around with some sort of mask in our daily lives.  And I do mean all of us--every last one of us.

It's another way of looking at how the interrelatedness of intelligence, social skills, cognition, memory, and I would say learning algorithms, can be conceptualized visually (graphical representation), much as the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator is a way of looking at the interrelatedness of personality traits according to the theories of Carl Jung (verbal conceptual representation).

Autism and Aspergers are quite interesting to me. My problem is that I find so much to be of interest that I can't seem to settle on a restricted specific area of interest (like chemistry was once upon a time), which results in a sort of paralysis (no doubt exacerbated by my adult ADD).


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to erieangel)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/13/2011 11:55:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

so the weird little fuckers are actually smarter than the rest of us. i always kind of suspected as much.


Not all of us are. Some, like me, are only smarter than most.

Course, I've also been accused of being quite a bit weirder than most.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 12:11:10 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Interesting. I wonder whether it is either a consequence of, or a response to compensate for brain damage elsewhere.


That has been an open question in every case where a subpopulation has more cells somewhere than the average.

The fact of the matter is that the differences are only visible at a statistical level; individual variations dwarf the intergroup variations, to the point where only averaging two carefully selected groups will give a reliable indication that there is any difference, and no scientific evidence as to what the difference is (as there is too much subjectivity in the process of selecting the groups and even assigning diagnoses in the first place).

A second order effect of this is that studies tend to focus on the most obvious (least functional) cases, which means they're exhibiting a systemic bias that limits the relevance of their studies to people matching the criterion used for selecting such groups. In short, we can confirm that our selection criterion did select something, but not tell much about what was selected and why. That is problematic, because this limitation is often not understood.

For instance, it is possible that they're finding the traits that make some more obviously impaired, and that these traits are present also in the regular population, but diagnosed (or not) differently there. Certainly, there are some flaws that are reasonably common in aspies and autistics that I have observed among people with no sign of being aspies or autistics, and I wouldn't be surprised if these are as likely to be caught by some of these studies as anything actually pertaining to asperger's or autism.

To the best of my knowledge, it is not presently possible to confirm or reject a diagnosis based on objective factors, nor is there universal agreement on what is even included in the various syndromes in the spectrum in question. I do have a vested interest in discovering more about it, and a significant interest in things like experimental MRI investigations as pointers to individually adapted strategies for improving function, but I see no evidence that we've made much headway in this regard.

Poor reporting, as in the article inspiring the OP, isn't making things better.

For that matter, if they do find out what makes me different (assuming that's actually it; the subjective process cannot differentiate because I'm too atypical, and the objective markers are in no way exclusive to asperger's, some of them being little more than unmoderated expression of phenotypes of behavioral markers where the underlying genotype is common in the general population here), I would have no interest in changing it, and see some ethical concerns with offering parents the option to swap their kids for more manageable ones, to put it a bit bluntly and rather insensitively.

And while we're on the subject of brain damage, I wonder whether some such differences can be caused by inverse factors, such as the simple absence of sports related injuries (e.g. playing football as a child almost invariably causes slight brain damage).

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 12:28:12 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Normals" think that we have some kind of condition that needs treatment, sort of like some really fucked-up Fundies think "gay" is a mental illness.


Great analogy, but I think "neurotypicals" is a better term than "normals"... especially since this isn't X-men or anything like that.

That's a somewhat established term that is also agnostic about what's atypical about the person using it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 12:02:39 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm sorry but the autistic who is completely nonverbal and amost completely nonsocial who has bouts of violence against themselves and against caregivers certainly needs more treatment than coping strategies.


I disagree. The lack of coping strategies is frequently the cause of said bouts of violence, in my experience. I am vaguely reminded by the excellent, if dated, story 'Little Lord' by J. Borgen, whose protagonist smashes his own hand because of the frustration building to a point where- having no appropriate outlet- he is unable to contain it.

Last I ran into one at a nonverbal, nonsocial level of functioning, he sought contact with me, calmed down and started spontaneously sharing in an age appropriate but nonverbal manner (still quite intelligible). Parents were befuddled, of course, as he was terrified of strangers and took ages to get used to them. My impression was he had been alone a long time and was very happy for the opportunity to break out of his isolation.

Are you saying that's indicative of a kid that merits e.g. "antecedent-behavior-consequence" programming?

The perversity of medical ethics is that one cannot learn, adapt and develop in a systematic manner, because one cannot obtain informed consent, so it is somehow better to use established methods of torture and anecdotal strategies to foster essentially unfounded hopes in parents that keeping their kids in a nonfunctional situation will result in function. While some parents trust their own instincts and have the resources to find out what works for their kid, most are too weary of dealing with the friction and default, or too concerned with integration.

Well, guess what?

You can't grow up for them. You can't develop for them. They have to grow up. They have to develop. And the best way to do that is with the assistance of parents, adults that have succeeded at similar circumstances, and peers. Sometimes, it will be necessary to use less than optimal means to aid in this process, but the process cannot be built on that aid alone. Coping skills are how you lubricate and pad the difference, to reduce the friction with the world at large and make up for deficiencies while capitalizing on strengths, bringing them to the point where they can decide what course to stake out, set goals and pursue a life that they can be content or even happy with.

Every autist or aspie I've encountered has at some point been in enough pain to resort to self-injurious behavior as a way to alleviate that pain or distract from it. It resolves with coping skills that limit the pain, and knowledge that explains the causative relationships that result in that pain. It does not improve by taking away the only outlet available. And I would say it's not an exclusively ASD trait to use one pain to lessen another. Taking away the possibility is a technique used in interrogative torture to eliminate relief and thereby intensify the experience of the torture while leaving headroom to do more. It's also a technique frequently used in treating the distress of parents who focus on the harm the kid is doing, not the pain that is the reason for it.

If self-injurious behavior is a problem, it is frequently possible to show them less destructive approaches to distract from pain. Clenching an ice cube is painful, but rarely causes lasting effects. Punching a wall with the thumb tucked aside and the wrist held in rigid alignment is also painful, while also venting aggression, but is usually not going to cause a lasting injury, or indeed anything beyond bleeding knuckles. Both can be taught to most who are able to learn anything at all. It will be distressing to watch, to not be able to reach out and take away the causative pain, but therein lies comprehension of one of the reasons the behavior exists: the inability to reach out to stop it.

For that matter, a parent may want to try it themselves, to see what the child does in response. Chances are the child will empathize and reveal its expression of comfort, which parents can use as a means of comforting that the child intuitively understands the meaning of. Or the child may grasp how their behavior is causing distress, motivating them to bear more pain before resorting to such behavior, whereas intervention modifies the behavior in a manner that they're less likely to understand. I'm not saying it will always be productive, just that making an attempt on their own terms is usually better in my experience.

And, quite frankly, when none of this does work at all, I'm inclined to think ASD usually isn't the main problem, just a factor that complicates addressing the main problem. That may be selection bias in my exposure, granted, but it's what I can contribute to the debate: my experience from my exposure to several ASD spectrum kids and adults, growing up with an anomaly that is undecidable but likely at the very least related (and parents that intuitively handled it much as the best (IMO) programme out there), living for more than a decade with a sub gf with a diagnosis of Asperger's, and dealing with people with and without ASD that have engaged in self-injurious behavior.

Just some unsorted thoughts on the matter.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 2:29:38 PM   
DomKen


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Where did I say any specific treatment? We're talking about finding the physical cause of autism, maybe, and how that could lead to entirely new treatments for the condition.

Wouldn't you rather there was a way to fix the physical reason behind autism? Why should any human being, evolved to be a social and verbal animal, be unable to understand social cues and be unable to communicate verbally?

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 7:38:52 PM   
Rule


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It is good to see you posting again, Aswad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
nor is there universal agreement on what is even included in the various syndromes in the spectrum in question.

Quite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I do have a vested interest in discovering more about it

As do I have an academic interest in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
For that matter, if they do find out what makes me different (assuming that's actually it; the subjective process cannot differentiate because I'm too atypical, and the objective markers are in no way exclusive to asperger's, some of them being little more than unmoderated expression of phenotypes of behavioral markers where the underlying genotype is common in the general population here)

I know what makes me different from other people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I would have no interest in changing it

Nor do I, though sometimes... I do rue the parts of my mind and their functionality that I lost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
and see some ethical concerns with offering parents the option to swap their kids for more manageable ones, to put it a bit bluntly and rather insensitively.

Indeed.

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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/14/2011 8:39:01 PM   
Termyn8or


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"And, quite frankly, when none of this does work at all, I'm inclined to think ASD usually isn't the main problem, just a factor that complicates addressing the main problem."

Yeah, ain't it great ? Manifestations of antisocial behavior pop up due to frustration over not being able to effectively communicate the problem. This is the typical cart/horse, chicken/egg, catch 22 debacle, common on this planet.

I've joked about the website dedicated to helping you hook up your internet, the cable station that shows how to hook up your cable, the number to call to learn how to use the telephone, the VHS tape on how to hook up the VCR as well as it's cousin DVD on a similar subject. There are times when this world seems designed to confuse and confound.

It also happens at random. That's why I have quite a list of things that I have actually thrown out of windows. Am I autistic ? Never know but I'd say it's not likely.

These traits are within the range of human behavior, and except for the extremes, I think we are having a blast drawing lines, pigeonholing people into little boxes.

Which rejustifies this in the light of the OP. From where did this control group come ? In a study like this, I think we need alot larger slice of the control group. How do you do that ? Go door to door and ask people if you can do a neuron count on them ? They would probably call the police.

I think this data should be correlated with data from rock stars, rocket sciantists and so forth. People who are really smart. I don't think we even have any data saying whether smarter people have more neurons or not.

Consider the "control" group to be under study and the studied group to be control. If you have data on 5% of your group that is great, how wonderful for you, but you only have data on 0.00005% of the other group.

The believability is overinflated in other words. Toss the numbers away and try to think of it in a conceptual fashion and you see how statistics lie. Sometimes they are made to lie and other times they just do.

To find out, we need a much larger sample of the "control" group.

T^T


< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/14/2011 8:46:14 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Autism breakthrough (maybe) - 11/16/2011 2:19:35 AM   
naughtynick81


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The smartest man in my class has autism. He would outsmart me anyday.

(in reply to Edwynn)
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