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RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:35:13 PM

barelynangel

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Okay here is something that doesn't make sense. How someone not dispute the existance of paranormal but NOT believe that the spirits of people who no longer have a live body to exist in (i.e., the actual definition of dead -- dead does not mean gone) can be a part of same?

Paranormals basic definition is scientifically unexplainable -- so if it's scientifically unexplainable, how can anyone try and use science as a way to explain how it doesn't exist.

If someone doesn't dispute paranormal which means they on some level believe in the possibility of paranormal, how can one try and put limits and boundries as to what is paranormal?

Paranormal can't be explained scientifically, so it can't have scientific limits and boundries especially trying to define what can be part of paranormal, i.e., ghosts and spirits of people who are no longer alive. Especially when those trying to define what it is haven't experienced what those who have experienced and identified something as a ghost or spirit, i.e., paranormal.

angel

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(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 181

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:40:05 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3922581

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Post #: 182

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:43:06 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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There was something said in a thread a while back by Anenoz about a soul being made up of different parts one of which was the "echo" of a person's actions, and another the "echo" of a person's thoughts, I was wondering if you thought either of those ideas might be applicable.

I found the thread.

quote:

4) Active Self. This is the echo of the sum total of your actions. Everything you do affects the cosmos as a whole, and creates a chain of cause and effect that will continue till the end of the universe. When you die, your Active Self merges into the physical universe and it is this that scientists call “dark matter.”

5) Mental Self. This is the sum total of all your thoughts. Every thought is a living thing that exists forever. They are merely borrowed from the pool of thoughts, and shaped by your mind into your own unique thoughts. When you die, your Mental Self resubmerges itself into this universal thought pool. This is what scientists call “dark energy.”

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3649961

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 11/14/2011 5:45:22 PM >

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Post #: 183

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:46:33 PM

barelynangel

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Heather, if you don't dispute it, then you can't put boundries on it. You either believe it or not. If you don't dispute the existance, then it's simply means on some level you aren't willing to absolutely disbelieve it.

Putting boundries on something that can and does fall into paranormal because you simply don't like the phenomena, is not logical. Your absolute that they do not exist, but yet accept paranormal exists, means you are attempting to put scientific boundries on something that simply can't be scientifically defined. UNTIL you actually experience what these people are, you have no ability to disregard it as paranormal or define it.

I have no issue with you being skeptical that 99.99999999999999999999999% of the ghost stories are probably inaccurately defined, but the absolute of they DO NOT exist, based on your belief of paranormal on some level exists, leaves your reasoning flawed.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Post #: 184

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:51:19 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Acceptance of the phenomena being experienced in no way dictates, determines, or limits what possible explanation<s> for those phenomena I might accept or reject. Because you cannot conceive of accepting one aspect of something without accepting every possible aspect of it does not mean that others cannot.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 185

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:57:04 PM

mari49x

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/16/2004
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I think I speak for us all when I say "HUH???"

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 186

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 5:58:12 PM

barelynangel

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No, you misunderstand what i am saying, i am saying you don't have an absolute, i.e., they do not exist, because you believe in paranormal. The very fact you believe on some level of the scientifically unexplainable, means you may reject the possibility of one explaination but you cannot disprove it's existance because it falls into paranormal.

You can reject the concepts of ghost and spirits, but you cannot absolutely state they don't exist simply because you don't dispute the concept of paranormal which means even though you reject the concept, the concept COULD be an explanation for the scientifically unexplainable.

To state that they absolutely don't exist means that you accept that there IS an explanation. As they are part of the paranormal, it simply means there are no scientific explanations.

angel

ETA clarify explanations to be scientific as that is the definition of paranormal -- scientifically unexplainable.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/14/2011 6:06:01 PM >

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Post #: 187

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:11:31 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Acceptance of the phenomena being experienced in no way dictates, determines, or limits what possible explanation<s> for those phenomena I might accept or reject. Because you cannot conceive of accepting one aspect of something without accepting every possible aspect of it does not mean that others cannot.

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 11/14/2011 6:12:13 PM >

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 188

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:13:44 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

I think I speak for us all when I say "HUH???"

That would be really unfortunate if it's true.

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Post #: 189

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:16:35 PM

barelynangel

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Bursts out laughing. It's okay Heather.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Post #: 190

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:22:51 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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It doesn't matter how many times you say it, you will still be wrong. I am trying to be nice to you about it because you obviously do not understand the concepts involved.
So one last time: I accept that people experience these phenomena. That does not in any way mean I must accept any given explanation of those phenomena.

If that is still over your head, then I'm afraid there really is nothing more I can do.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 191

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:27:41 PM

seekerofslut

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Joined: 9/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Acceptance of the phenomena being experienced in no way dictates, determines, or limits what possible explanation<s> for those phenomena I might accept or reject. Because you cannot conceive of accepting one aspect of something without accepting every possible aspect of it does not mean that others cannot.

Great dance steps.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 192

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:30:00 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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laughs, no Heather, you can repeat as many times as you need to. I know you are desperate now because you are falling into trying to be insulting.

The fact of the matter is you have flawed your own argument of the absolute of they do not exist BECAUSE you don't dispute the paranormal. If you can't disprove something that is paranormal, and you can't disprove what people are experiencing as absolutely not being ghosts or spirits. You can REJECT it, but you can't disprove it. Your rejection does not create the absolute.

I can reject things that occur within the paranormal, but because its paranormal, my rejection always leave a possibility that it CAN exist.

There is a difference between having confidence in what you believe heather, and knowing when to realize the absolute is not accurate.

YOU can believe that ghosts don't exist, but you can't disprove that they do.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 193

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:36:40 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

The fact of the matter is you have flawed your own argument of the absolute of they do not exist BECAUSE you don't dispute the paranormal. If you can't disprove something that is paranormal, and you can't disprove what people are experiencing as absolutely not being ghosts or spirits. You can REJECT it, but you can't disprove it. Your rejection does not create the absolute.

Your logic is so deeply flawed that I don't even know where to begin, suffice to say that you have equated all paranormal phenomena with one particular explanation of that phenomena.

quote:

I can reject things that occur within the paranormal, but because its paranormal, my rejection always leave a possibility that it CAN exist.

That's fine, but why would I be limited by your perceptions?

quote:

There is a difference between having confidence in what you believe heather, and knowing when to realize the absolute is not accurate.

YOU can believe that ghosts don't exist, but you can't disprove that they do.

I don't have to disprove anything, the burden of proof is on those who claim something does exist. The absolute "Ghosts do not exist" is the starting point, and in the absence of proof to the contrary, that absolute stands. Provide your proof, not anecdotal evidence, actual proof. Until then, my absolute stands as the only rational position.

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 11/14/2011 6:39:47 PM >

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 194

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:41:20 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Great dance steps.

Thank you.

(in reply to seekerofslut)

Post #: 195

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 6:58:58 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Heather, please do start because stamping your foot saying you are wrong and flawed isn't credible. You want to say how flawed my thoughts are then please step up to the plate and actually swing the bat. All i see you doing on this thread is saying sorry you are wrong, no you aren't correct -- you haven't used your favorite of your arguments hold no merit yet but the threads still young.

I never said you should be LIMITED by my perceptions, you do know the use of self as an EXAMPLE don't you? You limit yourself enough lol.

People have proven they exist, they have experienced it. Now it's up to you since you are stating the absolute of they do not exist to prove they are wrong in what they are identifying as ghosts and spirits. Simply saying they are wrong doesn't do that. You are asking people to prove the scientifically unexplanable, when they have done so by simply saying it is so. YOU now have to disprove it and you can't. Therefore, your absolute of they do not exist is not accurate.

No, your position is not rational, its flawed. As i said, please step up to the plate, if you can't then just say so. I can't prove or disprove ghosts or spirits exist, i am not trying to do so. You are the one who states an absolute despite the experiences identified as that phenomena you have yet to dispute or disprove as being ghosts or spirits.

All in all, i am sure you will come back with the you are wrong. But let's make this easy, there are a few experiences that have been mentioned, all i want you to do is simply disprove them absolutely as not being ghosts or spirits. They are proven because people have experienced them and identified them. Therefore, the possibility exists.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Post #: 196

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 7:08:04 PM

defiantbadgirl

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This would've been a great Halloween thread.

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Post #: 197

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 7:09:16 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

You want to say how flawed my thoughts are then please step up to the plate and actually swing the bat.

I did, several times.

quote:

Acceptance of the phenomena being experienced in no way dictates, determines, or limits what possible explanation<s> for those phenomena I might accept or reject. Because you cannot conceive of accepting one aspect of something without accepting every possible aspect of it does not mean that others cannot.

quote:

I accept that people experience these phenomena. That does not in any way mean I must accept any given explanation of those phenomena.

quote:

why would I be limited by your perceptions?

quote:

I don't have to disprove anything, the burden of proof is on those who claim something does exist. The absolute "Ghosts do not exist" is the starting point, and in the absence of proof to the contrary, that absolute stands. Provide your proof, not anecdotal evidence, actual proof. Until then, my absolute stands as the only rational position.

Well Barley, having answered you several times now, only to have you repeat yourself, I am through with your point, I have devoted far more time and space to it than it deserves. Unless you have something new to say, I will just bid you a good evening.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 198

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 7:11:00 PM

barelynangel

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Hey don't knock the ghosts lol or the arguments about same. If ghosts don't exist then how the hell will i be able to come back and haunt people who need to be haunted?

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

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Post #: 199

RE: Do ghosts exist? - 11/14/2011 7:20:15 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Bursts out laughing, okay Heather. I don't blame you for getting out now, you can't prove your absolute.

I can't prove or disprove ghosts exist, luckily i don't have too, all i need to do is show a possibility. Because of your absolute, you have to prove that they do not at all exist. You haven't done so.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 200

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