RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/19/2011 10:58:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Two examples of American Exceptionalism from my own experience in the U.S. Army:

1) During my Army service in Viet-Nam (1970-1971), some American soldiers who spent most of their time in rear areas would often refer to South Vietnamese military as "gooks" and would, in the presence of South Vietnamese military and civilians, loudly express the opinion that all Vietnamese (because they were not as good as Americans) were cowardly and could not be trusted (i.e. "Make sure you have an American with a machinegun aimed at the backs of the South Vietnamese troops or they'll run away at the first opportunity", etc.). Even though approximately 1/3 of the South Vietnamese population was Roman Catholic, I often heard American soldiers say that if the South Vietnamese were "Christians" like American were, they would have been more patriotic and more anti-Communist. If in any engagement between American forces and Viet-Cong or even North Vietnamese regulars, the Americans lost, it was usually blamed on sub-human characteristics of non-Americans (i.e. "They only fought hard because they were all high on pot", etc.)

2) Later, during my Army service in Germany (1971-1974), I came across a group of American National Guard troops from Louisiana who were in Germany to participate in the annual REFORGER war games. They were stopped in a tiny German village and, when the German storekeepers refused to take American dollars, the American soldiers went on verbal rants ("What's wrong with these people? They're so stupid, they don't even speak English" was one of the comments I remember), loud enough that everyone in the village could hear.


I'm glad we had such a fine upstanding American Solder as yourself to set them straight.

ehh, you did set them straight, didn't you? [8|]

Firm




tj444 -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/19/2011 11:17:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Btw, while i knew there were less freedoms, more govt regulation, corruption, etc in the US, only by actually living here does one find out just how much worse than i realized. I think that the economic debacle has made that worse and of course 9/11 did that in huge and various ways..

It's just California. [8D]

Firm


Yes, California is one crazy place.. lol.. and to contrast, you have North Dakota that has tried to reduce regulations and encourage business so they are one of the bright spots with lower unemployment, etc..




FirmhandKY -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/19/2011 11:28:09 PM)

Oh, btw, just to remind you, about them thar ugly Amerikan soldier boys:

A Viable Third Party Candidate - 7/26/2011 11:11:35 PM

I think my fourth paragraph is still pretty accurate.

But, of course, it would be remiss of me to forget that your genes are "special", so perhaps a reminder to us "lesser folks" would also be in order:

Zona`s "Papers Please" guy, gets recalled. - 7/11/2011 10:13:18 PM 

But, perhaps, you are just confused about the people, the year, or the war ... or something?  You've kinda got your facts and time-line confused before:

Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 3:37:14 PM 

I think you only got confused by a century, that time, though.

Maybe you kinda heard these war-stories sometime or another ... and since they sound so good, and all, yanno.  Really good stuff to trash the Amerikan soldier and Amerika, ain't they? [8|]

Firm




Owner59 -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 5:39:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Says the party that destroyed capitalism.




xssve -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 5:55:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Capitalism is great when you have opportunities you can make use of to derive a material income or make a profit.

But when you don't have those opportunities or can't make use of them then capitalism doesn't work.

But you know you can make the exact same statement for almost any political ideology.

Capitalism is just a means to an end. The end is all about opportunity and whether the opportunities exist and whether people can make use of them.

This is true both on Wall Street as it is at the very bottom of society. A $10 bill is numerically worth $10, but the opportunity that ten dollar bill represents to the person who has it varies from person to person.
Capitalism is great period, American exceptionalism does however, arise largely from a surplus of primitive capital that only a few other countries possess - Africa, which still has vast reserves of unexploited mineral wealth, Russia and China to a degree, which still retain abundant natural resources by virtue of sheer land area.

Once that primitive capital is developed however, a different dynamic applies, and value added economic becomes the only means of progress - and to some extent, socialist subsystems become necessary when you can't just go out and pick gold nuggets up off the ground, but require complex infrastructure and a greater degree of specialization.

But innovation is what drives value added capitalism, and that is not really the forte of corporate economies of scale which specialize in producing mass quantities of relatively generic goods, it's a little old man in a basement beating that gold nugget into a ring, or some guy tinkering with a bunch of junk in his garage - the only thing Tommy Hilfiger has over your mom and her sewing machine is a marketing department.

That's what scares corporations about capitalism, some part time inventor can render an entire industry obsolete overnight by building a better mousetrap, but that's how it works.

There are solutions, but they do entail capital investment: lean manufacturing, cradle to cradle, etc., and right now it's still easier to exploit primitive capital in other place, including cheap Chinese labor.






thishereboi -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 6:00:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Says the party that destroyed capitalism.



Hate to break it to you sparky but wilbur isn't a party. He is just on individual with an opinion. Now that opinion is usually fueled by bigotry, but I would think you would be ok with that part. It is how you roll.




Owner59 -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 6:05:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Says the party that destroyed capitalism.



Hate to break it to you sparky but wilbur isn't a party. He is just on individual with an opinion. Now that opinion is usually fueled by bigotry, but I would think you would be ok with that part. It is how you roll.


Lol ....you should just shut up.....I wasn`t refering to him.....lol




DarkSteven -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 6:30:39 AM)

1. The statement "our people are not perfect but our culture is superior to others"  is ridiculous.  OF COURSE our culture is superior to others, and inferior to still others.  That's like asking someone if they'll vote for or against Obama in 2012 without knowing who the alternative will be.

2. I don't consider America to be a country (or a continent for you sticklers) as much as a set of ideals:
A. Private ownership of property.
B. Private ownership of the means of production.
C. A government which is selflessly committed to the welfare of its people.
D. Freedom to act in the interest of self, family, community, etc.
E. Unfettered opportunity.
F. Reward for hard work.

So, to answer the question, I do believe strongly in American exceptionalism, but don't consider that to be limited to the USA.  Nor do I believe that we in the USA follow it as well as we should.




Zonie63 -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 7:18:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?

Is a child born in Tulsa, Oklahoma to parents who are American citizens inherently superior to, say, a child born in Manila, Republic of the Philippines, to parents who are citizens of the Republic of the Philippines?

Is the United States federal government inherently superior to, say, the national government of Australia?

Your comments?



In another thread, someone else mentioned the term "American Exceptionalism," which (according to the Wiki article on that subject) was a term first coined by Stalin. So, it's hard to take the term seriously when it originated with Soviet propaganda.

But to answer your questions, no, the United States is not inherently superior to any other nation.

However, the reason why politicians like Reagan and Bush use rhetoric like that is in order to drum up support for globalism and their military adventurism. They don't actually believe this stuff they say about America, because if they did, their policies would have reflected that.

As the writer indicates:

quote:

We are settling into a dangerous national pessimism. We must answer the big questions. Was our nation’s greatness about having God or having grit? Is exceptionalism an anointing or an ethos? If the answers are grit and ethos, then we must work to recapture them. We must work our way out of these doldrums. We must learn our way out. We must innovate our way out.


In the early days of our republic, it was decided that we would refrain from foreign entanglements and to not play favorites among foreign nations. This was the real key to our success, since it meant that we could stay out of permanent alliances and any major wars which could have threatened our national survival. We actively focused on maintaining our independence and security from foreign influence, all of which was outlined in George Washington's Farewell Address. He also warned against political factionalism and stressed national unity. He warned against incurring huge insurmountable debts and a large permanent military establishment.

It's not that we saw ourselves as "exceptional," but we merely saw ourselves as neutral and detached, which isn't exactly the same as "isolationism," which has always been a misnomer. True, there might have been some Americans who have argued along the lines that we are "exceptional," especially when they came up with terms like "Manifest Destiny." But that was only one side of the story; not everyone went along with it. It wasn't pessimism to believe that we had reached our limits and shouldn't go any further.

But if there was ever a decision to go to war, it was made on the basis of America's national interests and not upon any other consideration. That changed in World War I, when Wilson declared it to be a war to make the world safe for democracy. So, suddenly our foreign and military policy were no longer based on America's national interests, but on the interests of global democracy. That was an enormous shift in our fundamental beliefs, as a nation, even if it was only temporary and ultimately rejected when the Senate refused to ratify the US entry into the League of Nations. However, this monumental shift in our national security perceptions would eventually take hold permanently during the FDR years to the point where succeeding generations never even bothered to question it anymore.

So, our entire national existence has been all but subverted for the sake of world-wide democracy and capitalism. If our nation is "in decline" and "no longer the leading country in the world," it's only because our government's policies have mostly achieved the goals they've set out for. The policies of promoting democracy and capitalism around the world, if successful, would pretty much make "America" irrelevant as a nation. We would no longer be the leading country in the world precisely because our policies were designed to do exactly that.








kdsub -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 9:40:08 AM)

China will always be exceptional...as well as India... just through pure numbers.. At least as long as the people of those nations have opportunity. That has been the problem in the past… no opportunity to excel and one of the limiting factors today… with both nations… India still as problems getting rid of the caste system.

Butch




SternSkipper -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 12:39:48 PM)

quote:

No, I wasnt blowing you off..


I certainly realize that now.. and wires get crossed and question get lost here. Which is why I figured I'd play highwayman with your question.[:D]

quote:

SternSkipper, just been wondering, have you realized your American dream?


Not fully, I had it interrupted by a spouse who could not deal with a career peeking out and alcohol at the same time, not long after realizing my parts of the dream (two beautiful kids and the house on the salt marsh 1/2 a mile from the open sea and the time to enjoy it. Professionally, yeah, several times, working on career dream #3)
I have reset the dream clock to be a single, self-employed Dad who's carving out a new life for the three of us in an unfriendly economy.

quote:

I really dont know what the future of the majority of Americans is.. What about the disenfranchised and those that had their American dreams dashed, especially after the housing crisis? I wonder what percentage of the population is disillusioned and beaten down for not making it.. the gulf between the poor and the well off seems to be widening more and more.. Imo, many people that are well off dont realize it and dont even want to know about it.. at least from my observation (in OC)..


Oh, I agree... I think there's been a lot damaged by a variety of influences. I think though as a culture there is still some pearls left. We will need to grow them though. They're definitely not going to be delivered by the status quo.

quote:

Of course there are the doers, the Steve Jobs, and people that have the smarts and most importantly the will and drive to succeed, those people exist in other capitalist countries as well although there are many more in the US simply due to the huge population here..


Yeah, but there's also a sort of built in romanticism associated with big dreams and innovation here. Not as strong as it used to be, but who says it won't come back twice as strong.

quote:

You know.. imo, what OWS should be doing is make a list of these huge corps that pay little in tax and/or corrupted politicians, make a list and website of all their products (generic and private label too) and services, then find alternative companies and products that do pay and dont offshore.


Stuff like that IS being done... but our big next task is integrating cities informationally in a more formal way. There is a lot of debate going on as to how that will work since there are implications of 'leadership'. Some still feel 'leaderlessness' , if you will, is important. You can see it in all the doomsday predictions aboput the movement. I happen to be be among them. Sure makes it a real mindfuck for people wanting to undermine us.
   Ask yourself this though. Ever see a political movement that's less than three months old get this much prediction and empty handed demands for traditional characteristics they would expect from THEIR Framework, Cause as we know, ONLY their recipe for politics and/or social change is the one which works, right? Nothing new could come along, could it?
Everything's already been discovered, hasn't it?[:D][:D]
Crazy world, isn't it?
[8D]




Moonhead -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 1:09:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

China will always be exceptional...as well as India... just through pure numbers.. At least as long as the people of those nations have opportunity. That has been the problem in the past… no opportunity to excel and one of the limiting factors today… with both nations… India still as problems getting rid of the caste system.

Butch

Actually India is currently exceptional through the British style* university system rather than sheer weight of numbers. When you can get somebody with a better qualification than they'd get from a UK redbrick (or the American Ivy league) for a fiver a week to work in your call centre, why pay more for somebody who'll do less work and whine more?
That's the capitalist free market Wilbur feels America was based on in a nutshell, innit?

*(Which they haven't actually had in Britain since the late '50s, but they took the sort of higher education Rhodes and Kipling did as their model, dig?)




popeye1250 -> RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? (11/20/2011 1:30:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

"Decline Of American Exceptionalism"
quote:

Is America exceptional among nations? Are we, as a country and a people and a culture, set apart and better than others? Are we, indeed, the “shining city upon a hill” that Ronald Reagan described? Are we “chosen by God and commissioned by history to be a model to the world” as George W. Bush said?

This year, for the first time, most Americans did not say yes.

According to a report issued on Thursday by the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes Project, when Americans were asked if they agreed with the statement “our people are not perfect but our culture is superior to others,” only 49 percent agreed. That’s down from 60 percent in 2002, the first time that Pew asked the question.

We are settling into a dangerous national pessimism. We must answer the big questions. Was our nation’s greatness about having God or having grit? Is exceptionalism an anointing or an ethos? If the answers are grit and ethos, then we must work to recapture them. We must work our way out of these doldrums. We must learn our way out. We must innovate our way out.

We have to stop snuggling up to nostalgia, acknowledge that we have allowed a mighty country to be brought low and set a course to restitution. And that course is through hard work and tough choices. You choose greatness; it doesn’t choose you…

We must look out at the world with clear eyes and sober minds and do the difficult work as we’ve done time and time again. That’s how a city shines upon a hill.

Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?

Is a child born in Tulsa, Oklahoma to parents who are American citizens inherently superior to, say, a child born in Manila, Republic of the Philippines, to parents who are citizens of the Republic of the Philippines?

Is the United States federal government inherently superior to, say, the national government of Australia?

Your comments?




I don't know about "inherently" but the current government is definately inferior to Australia's.
I've been to about 40-50 different countries and I'd have to say that yes, we are most definately superior to most countries.
I've been to some real shit pits like Haiti.
A lot of that stuff above is simple "imagrey" that politicians use in speeches. It doesn't really mean anything.
I wouldn't really call the space program "exceptionalism", we do it simply because we can.
And the "international space station" isn't "international" it belongs to whoever is paying for it
We have a better standard of living in this country no doubt so yes we are superior in that sense, ( I was going to say better "education" but scratch that.)

Six more to go, I'd have to agree with you as I'm a dual national US/Irish (Donegal)
I went to Cork once and thought they were having a midget's convention in town that weekend! They wearn't!
And prices are high there as well but the beautiful women there make up for that!




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