The stolen valor act (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Iamsemisweet -> The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 1:47:47 PM)

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/17/supreme-court-to-take-up-stolen-valor-act/

The Supremes are apparently going to take a look at the constitutionality of a law that makes it a criminal act to lie about receiving military honors. The challenge is going to be by a person elected to a Water Board, or some such office, and lying that he had received a medal of honor. Personally, I would rather be water boarded than serve on a Water Board, but anyway. He was prosecuted criminally, and while he admitted that he lied, he claims the law violates his right of free speech.

I kind of agree with him. Lying about your military record is contemptible, but really doesn't damage anyone. The other exceptions from free speech are all there because the action results in harm to someone else.

I am from a family where most of the men have served in the military, but I still feel this law is more of a danger than the activity it was supposed to prohibit. What do you think? If you respond please include whether or not you have served in the military.




DarkSteven -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 2:12:27 PM)

Bullshit. 

Right now, the only illegal lying occurs when under oath, or if someone is hurt by it (libel/slander, and the bar for that is huge).

If they're looking to make any lying illegal, that can start with campaign promises, and then go from there to lying on the floor of Congress (check out Joseph McCarthy to see how Congressional immunity can be abused).

Letting Congress pass laws determining what lying is okay under what circumstances is ridiculous.  Their ethics aren't up to it.






Owner59 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 2:33:22 PM)

What can be done about phonys who fake valor or heroism?

It`s an extreme form of cheating at solitaire,the creepy fake not getting real feedback.

But there are victims.

People who want to acknowledge and honor these special individuals.

It`s just so wrong on so many levels.But probably legal.[X(]




BanthaSamantha -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 3:01:33 PM)

How about we make it a crime to like about being Jewish in order to get laid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186




DarkSteven -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 4:19:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What can be done about phonys who fake valor or heroism?



It's bigger than just that.  If Congress is permitted the precedent to decide what lying is allowable and what isn't, I'd be frightened.  They are the epitome of great power without great responsibility.




tazzygirl -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 4:39:41 PM)

They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.




DarkSteven -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 5:04:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.


They themselves are permitted to lie, yes.  But they have not been permitted to sanction others' lies.




gungadin09 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 5:08:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.


Yes, but so can anyone else lie anywhere else without committing a crime, except under oath or in a contract of some kind.

pam




slvemike4u -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 5:42:16 PM)

This is just a knee jerk response,but I get the feeling we do owe it to the actual heroes to protect what they earned at great risk.isn't it already illegal to falsely wear medals....why not codify lying about such ?




tazzygirl -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 6:16:07 PM)

Did you know that it is a crime to tell a lie to the federal government? Even if your lie is oral and not under oath? Even if you have received no warnings of any kind? Even if you are not trying to cheat the government out of money? Even if the government is not actually misled by your falsehood? Well it is.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the ever expanding federal bureaucracy. Though the falsehood must be "material" this requirement is met if the statement has the "natural tendency to influence or [is] capable of influencing, the decision of the decisionmaking body to which it is addressed." United States v. Gaudin , 515 U.S. 506, 510 (1995). (In other words, it is not necessary to show that your particular lie ever really influenced anyone.) Although you must know that your statement is false at the time you make it in order to be guilty of this crime, you do not have to know that lying to the government is a crime or even that the matter you are lying about is "within the jurisdiction" of a government agency. United States v. Yermian , 468 U.S. 63, 69 (1984). For example, if you lie to your employer on your time and attendance records and, unbeknownst to you, he submits your records, along with those of other employees, to the federal government pursuant to some regulatory duty, you could be criminally liable.

Even in our age of ever expanding federal power, the breadth of this statute (and the discretion it lodges in prosecutors) is awesome. Congress has regulated so many areas of our lives and federalized so many functions that the reach of Section 1001 is virtually boundless. This is what caused many federal courts to create an "exculpatory no" doctrine, holding that falsely answering "no" to an inquiry from a federal agent was, standing alone, not a crime under Section 1001. In 1998, however, the United States Supreme Court rejected this doctrine (as being inconsistent with legislative intent) in Brogan v. United States , 522 U.S. 398, 805 (1998). Thus, the only avenue for reform with respect to Section 1001 is in Congress, where politicians seldom get brownie points for narrowing the reach of federal criminal statutes.


http://library.findlaw.com/2004/May/11/147945.html

The article continues.

I would wonder if a man stating he has a medal of honor would be placed on a higher status for a job than one who did not if all things were equal.




gungadin09 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 6:46:12 PM)

Stuff like this makes me want to just move.

pam




Owner59 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 6:48:28 PM)

Don`t be lie`n......[;)]




tazzygirl -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:05:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Stuff like this makes me want to just move.

pam



Its a crime to lie and pretend to be a Dr, a nurse, a policeman. But these are things that can affect lives.

I believe it should be left alone, that it was a misdemeanor to impersonate someone with a medal. It never should have changed.




gungadin09 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:08:49 PM)

No, i was talking about the link you cited.  The hypothetical example about the nurse really pissed me off.

pam




Winterapple -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:11:41 PM)

It's vile but should it be illegal?
It seems like the sort of thing where
the sentiment behind it was good and
honorable but the outcomes could be
terrible.
It makes me think of Joseph Ellis.
In addition to being a respected historian
and a successful writer whose won
all sorts of prizes he is a college professor.
The Boston Globe(I think) discovered he
was telling his students in class about his
experiences in the Viet Nam war. He
was never in the military and his exploits
were all made up.
I think a teacher lying to his students is
lousy and the breech of a almost sacred
trust.
He was not fired to my knowledge he was
never censored. His writing career goes
on and he is still taken seriously as a
historian.
Why would a man who is something of
a public figure lie so foolishly?
A psychological problem?
I've never served in the military but come
from a family with many members
who have. My stepdad is retired military.
My cousin is in Iraq and was in Bosnia
prior to that.
I also have a family member who lost his
eye and his arm in Viet Nam. His life
has been virtually destroyed by post
traumatic stress disorder.
So I find it loathsome that people would
use military service and heroism so
cynically and for personal gain.
But I can't say I agree with this law.






tazzygirl -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:15:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

No, i was talking about the link you cited.  The hypothetical example about the nurse really pissed me off.

pam



Not sure why. While the scenario is not likely, simply because there would be more than one nurse. it is plausible.




gungadin09 -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:18:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Not sure why...it is plausible.


That's why i'm pissed off.  For the nurse.  i think the law is wrong.

pam






SternSkipper -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:19:39 PM)

quote:

How about we make it a crime to like about being Jewish in order to get laid.


That works? Ummmm I mean Oye!




tazzygirl -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:21:18 PM)

Nurses as well as Physicians have a higher standard to keep.




SternSkipper -> RE: The stolen valor act (11/20/2011 7:27:26 PM)

quote:

Bullshit.

Right now, the only illegal lying occurs when under oath, or if someone is hurt by it (libel/slander, and the bar for that is huge).

If they're looking to make any lying illegal, that can start with campaign promises, and then go from there to lying on the floor of Congress (check out Joseph McCarthy to see how Congressional immunity can be abused).

Letting Congress pass laws determining what lying is okay under what circumstances is ridiculous. Their ethics aren't up to it.


I agree... Personally, I wish the SC would rule Congress can't go near the concept of truth vs lies.

It was a deep hole in 06 when they first dug it. Is this the only guy who's been prosecuted under the law? Anybody know?







Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875