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Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 7:39:39 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Americans are talking about the economy—a lot. They're talking about Occupy Wall Street and the Super Committee, about an economy that only works for the 1% and about unemployment.

But thanks to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, lots of talk about the economy means lots of misinformation about the economy.

So if you're spending this Thanksgiving holiday with friends and family, and want to be ready with the facts to gently correct any myths you hear (they are family and friends, after all), we put together a short guide with five common myths you might hear and easy-to-remember facts to respond to them.

MYTH #1: The congressional Super Committee failed because both sides refuse to compromise.

REALITY: The Super Committee failed because Republicans' number one, non-negotiable priority is to protect millionaires and billionaires from paying even one more penny in taxes.1 Democrats repeatedly offered to make deep spending cuts—far deeper than most progressives would like—in exchange for raising taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes, only to be refused again and again.2 So even though the vast majority of Americans say they want to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, and raise taxes on the rich and corporations,3 that won't happen until Republicans put aside their extremist stance.

MYTH #2: Nobody knows what Occupy Wall Street is about.

REALITY: Occupy Wall Street may not have a formal list of demands, but anyone who's been paying attention understands the core problems that occupiers are protesting—that corporations have far too much power in our political system, that Wall Street banks crashed our economy but were never held accountable, and that the richest 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans—156 million people—combined.4

MYTH #3: Occupiers should stop protesting and just get a job.

REALITY: As anybody who's looked for a job in the last few years knows, there just aren't jobs out there. That's a big part of why occupiers are protesting. In September, there were four times as many unemployed people as job openings.5 And for those who are lucky enough to find a job, median wages today are lower than they were a decade ago.6

MYTH #4: Occupy Wall Street is intent on provoking violence, especially against banks and the police.

REALITY: Occupations across the country have committed themselves to nonviolent protest, in the greatest traditions of protest movements. Some of their protests have been met with acts of police violence—tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets7—but in many cases, protesters have reminded police that the police officers are part of the 99%, too.8 And in the few cases when people have shown up at Occupy demonstrations and committed acts of vandalism, other protesters have even repaired their acts of vandalism.9

MYTH #5: The biggest crisis facing our country is out of control government spending.

REALITY: The two biggest drivers of our deficit—by far—are the economic crash and the Bush tax cuts.10 We have millions of people out of work, corporations hoarding cash, and factories sitting idle. If we put all those people back to work—rebuilding infrastructure, educating our children, and researching new technologies—it'll shrink the deficit and make our economy stronger for the long haul. And we can easily afford it if we make sure the rich—who are taking home a larger percentage of income than any time since 191711—pay their fair share.

Sources:

1. "No, 'both sides' aren't equally to blame for supercommittee failure," The Washington Post, November 21, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268071&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=4

2. "Wonkbook: In supercommittee, Dems moved right and Republicans moved righter," The Washington Post, November 22, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268072&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=5

3. "CNN Poll: What The Super Committee Produced Is...Exactly What We Don't Want," Talking Points Memo, November 21, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268073&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=6

"Medicare, Social Security & The Deficit," National Committee to Preserve Social Security & Medicare, September 2011
http://www.ncpssm.org/pdf/poll.pdf

4. "Michael Moore says 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined," Politifact Wisconsin, March 10, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268074&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=7

5. "Fact: 4 job seekers per opening in U.S.," CNN, September 12, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268075&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=8

6. "Median household income," Wikipedia, Accessed November 22, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268076&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=9

7. "Occupy movement: police reaction in pictures," The Guardian, November 21, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268077&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=10

8. "Occupy Demonstrators Mark Two Months of Protests," NPR, November 17, 2011
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=268078&id=33178-19913921-KfG%3Dv4x&t=11

9. "Occupy Oakland protesters assist in cleanup efforts," News 10 ABC, November 3, 2011
http://www.news10.net/news/article/161383/2/Occupy-Oakland-protesters-assist-in-cleanup-efforts-

10. "Economic Downturn and Bush Policies Continue to Drive Large Projected Deficits," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, May 10, 2011
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3490

11. "Income Inequality Is At An All-Time High: STUDY," The Huffington Post, September 14, 2009
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/income-inequality-is-at-a_n_259516.html
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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 8:30:01 AM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		I would hardily agree with most all of that post and your links but disagree with their stated cause of the Bush financial meltdown.

It in fact was the underwriting of mortgages by Countrywide to name just one, that were known wouldn't be paid,

...the invocation by Bush of an 1863 OCC law PREVENTING states attys general from stopping that underwriting,

...the assignment of a ridiculous AAA rating to securities (paper) sold, backed by those phony mortgages,

...banks defrauding (betting against) the very paper they sold govts. and institutions worldwide,

...the borrowing by speculators (Fannie & Freddie) and all failed where that failure was precipitated by the failure of those phony mortgages.

This was all engineered by unmitigated greed that capitalism is and the scum it has produced.

More of the same in derivatives now expose the same and costlier risks are being sold as we type...also 'backed' by nothing, will have that scum coming back to Washington for a $multi-trillion bailout.

The 'housing bubble' didn't 'burst' until these mortgages...burst all of the while, sellers knew god damn well they were going to burst.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 11/23/2011 8:32:02 AM >

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 8:39:47 AM   
RakeAndCo


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Status: offline 		Ah, i see the financial illiterates are out again. Here's a little news for you - US government's spending accounting methods are only applicable to the accounting as used by the US government. It allows the government to disregard the liabilities booked for the payments over 10 years in the future. US is broke. Its real unfunded liabilities as of fiscal 2011 in just medicare and SS exceed 210T USD and it its f'(x) is growing at least linearly . The total GDP of the entire world is 63T and at most its f(x) is growing linearly.

I understand that it is above the comprehension of the moveon.org reading crowd but do try. Maybe, just maybe a lightbulb will go off in your head.

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:04:45 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RakeAndCo

Ah, i see the financial illiterates are out again. Here's a little news for you - US government's spending accounting methods are only applicable to the accounting as used by the US government. It allows the government to disregard the liabilities booked for the payments over 10 years in the future. US is broke. Its real unfunded liabilities as of fiscal 2011 in just medicare and SS exceed 210T USD and it its f'(x) is growing at least linearly . The total GDP of the entire world is 63T and at most its f(x) is growing linearly.

I understand that it is above the comprehension of the moveon.org reading crowd but do try. Maybe, just maybe a lightbulb will go off in your head.



While the moveon crowd has no clue, apparently neither do you. Government "liabilities" for programs "10 years in the future" are NOT accounting liabilities.


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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:11:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		re the OP

1. is totally wrong. It was clearly both sides with hard agendas. Anyone who can read and followed the offers knows that. That bullshit position taints the rest of the points.
2. Semantics. the occupy movement doesnt have a coherent message. The problems cited are at best arguable, at worst dead wrong.
3. Nothing Fox has said would disagree with the unemployment situation. Strawman.
4. Semanitcs. You should know from our very own Skippy that provocation of arrests is part of the OWS book of tactics. Some of that provocation may certainly be considered violent. Peaceful demonstrations dont result in 4500 arrests.
5. There are many contributors to the deficit. If you deny that spending is one of them youve never prepared a budget.

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:13:24 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I would hardily agree with most all of that post and your links but disagree with their stated cause of the Bush financial meltdown.


Where's the stated cause? I just see "economic crash." I agree with your reasons for it.

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:17:01 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I would hardily agree with most all of that post and your links but disagree with their stated cause of the Bush financial meltdown.


Where's the stated cause? I just see "economic crash." I agree with your reasons for it.


I would assume he's referring to link 10, which has such a glaring error its worthless. It claims that the last Bush budget had a deficit of 1.4 trillion. That includes the stimulus package passed by Obama, which is part of that budget year.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/23/2011 9:19:16 AM >

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:20:39 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		I look forward to the day when moveon is added to the study:

Fox News Viewers Know Less Than People Who Don't Watch Any News: Study

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3932306/tm.htm


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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:23:48 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I look forward to the day when moveon is added to the study:

Fox News Viewers Know Less Than People Who Don't Watch Any News: Study

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3932306/tm.htm




Its not a news organization.

Its also interesting to note that the reports of the Fairleigh Dickinson findings that are posted here only mention Fox news. MSNBC did as poorly as Fox, just on different issues. And, as noted before, by being limited to residents of NJ the study doesnt reflect huge parts of the Fox audience.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/23/2011 9:29:05 AM >

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:30:42 AM   
samboct


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Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Re the OP-

As nearly always, I'll disagree with Wilbur, but in this case, there are a few areas of agreement.

Re the Super Committee failure- its arguable that since Obama didn't support Bowles- Simpson which was a much more thought out plan- then why would this one get executive support? A more accurate version might be that with "safe" congressional seats, both sides had more to lose with compromise than standing pat. With that being said- the moderate Republicans with "safe" seats are dealing with Tea Party challenges, and are running scared. The lack of compromise is endemic and the gerrymandering that's been done in past years has a lot to do with it. You can figure out who was behind the gerrymandering though.

Re arrests- some people view that getting arrested is part of non-violent protest. Arresting people generally backfires, and it looks like it will. There's a demonstrable lack of justice here- the bankers and Wall St. folks who committed a massive fraud have gone largely scot free- and people out of work are getting arrested....Wilbur's comment that they deserve to be arrested for demonstrating is tantamount to fascism. The numbers are wrong- a few people might be violent- but 4500? They cast a broad net for that one, meaning the folks in gov't are running scared and over reacting.

The reality of myth #5 is dead wrong. While the Bush tax cuts didn't help, the situation was that we were making little headway on the overall debt- the best the Clinton years offered was not running a deficit. The real killer in the budget is Medicare- and unless we get health care costs under control which was the first step in Obama's health care plan, everything else is tinkering around the edges. The bloated defense budget doesn't help. Corporations spending has little to do with tax cuts- but a great deal to do with a sustainable economic plan which seems to be lacking. The government needs to prime the pump- get the economy rolling even with more spending now- and then deal with the long term issues of medicare and defense spending. So while the Bush era tax cuts didn't help things- they're not the elephant in the room. However, these tax cuts do tie into OWS- the system is terribly unfair and people are rightfully pissed off.

Sam

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:33:54 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

. So while the Bush era tax cuts didn't help things- they're not the elephant in the room. However, these tax cuts do tie into OWS- the system is terribly unfair and people are rightfully pissed off.

Sam


The hypocrisy of the left is rarely clearer than on this issue. (I dont mean you in particular, the left in general). We've listened to the rhetoric that the Bush tax cuts favored the rich for years. But talk about eliminating them entirely, and all of a sudden that disproportionately hurts the middle class and poor.

It cant work both ways.

The super committee was willing to discuss letting all of the Bush tax cuts expire in exchange for changes to entitlement programs. The Dems said absolutely not.


< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/23/2011 9:35:02 AM >

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:36:28 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		It isnt working both ways, the way you couch it is ignorant and dishonest in the extreme.

Favorable treatment for the wealthy is a fact.
Adding taxes to the middle and poor class hurts disproportionately, also a fact.



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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 9:48:01 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Its also interesting to note that the reports of the Fairleigh Dickinson findings that are posted here only mention Fox news. MSNBC did as poorly as Fox, just on different issues.


It's also interesting to note that the Daily Show was consistently in the top 5: http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/

I'm actually not watching MSNBC these days - as I loathe commercials, I watch very little TV. I watch the Daily Show online for entertainment and consider its value in conveying news a bonus.

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 10:03:27 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Its also interesting to note that the reports of the Fairleigh Dickinson findings that are posted here only mention Fox news. MSNBC did as poorly as Fox, just on different issues.


It's also interesting to note that the Daily Show was consistently in the top 5: http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/

I'm actually not watching MSNBC these days - as I loathe commercials, I watch very little TV. I watch the Daily Show online for entertainment and consider its value in conveying news a bonus.


The polls the Daily Show does well on tend to ask questions that are more opinion than fact, and ask about the most obvious (and therefore the easiest to snark about) issues. That was the flaw in the 3 or 4 year old poll that claimed to show Fox and BOR viewers in particular as being less informed. The "correct" answers were either biased toward the liberal side or the questions were too nuanced to have a simple answer, and the liberal simple answer was the one chosen.

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 10:23:04 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		"This was all engineered by unmitigated greed that capitalism is and the scum it has produced."

You do exhibit the talent for subtlety. Ever notice the bigger the picture you see, the less you like it ?

"The 'housing bubble' didn't 'burst' until these mortgages...burst all of the while, sellers knew god damn well they were going to burst."

It was created to burst. Cheap money is what caused it, plain and simple. It has accomplished it's stated goal thus far. It has transerred some wealth. Up for another round ? Many people who know more than I predict that there will be another similar incident in the near future. Cited is the lack of any really meaningful change in the way these dealings are regulated. Hey, what worked once should work again right ? And it's not like it's the first time anyway. It was caused all those other times too, this one was just bigger.

T^T

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 11:37:16 AM   
KuntPunter


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.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KuntPunter -- 11/23/2011 11:38:13 AM >

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 11:43:14 AM   
Sanity


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Right...

Leftists spent years howling like they were dying because they were "tax cuts for the rich" and only the rich...

Hilarious that they now try to deny that

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It isnt working both ways, the way you couch it is ignorant and dishonest in the extreme.

Favorable treatment for the wealthy is a fact.
Adding taxes to the middle and poor class hurts disproportionately, also a fact.




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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 11:49:10 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Congress going home with only 9% approval is going to be interesting.


The next few weeks should provide some entertaining town-hall vids....

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 12:10:31 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Right...

Leftists spent years howling like they were dying because they were "tax cuts for the rich" and only the rich...

Hilarious that they now try to deny that



Hilarious what sort of asswipe that answer is, where is the credible citations of that denial?

Nobody howling but the peri-menopausal hysterical no-nothing right.   

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RE: Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving - 11/23/2011 6:27:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Right...

Leftists spent years howling like they were dying because they were "tax cuts for the rich" and only the rich...

Hilarious that they now try to deny that

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It isnt working both ways, the way you couch it is ignorant and dishonest in the extreme.

Favorable treatment for the wealthy is a fact.
Adding taxes to the middle and poor class hurts disproportionately, also a fact.





The ignorance is mind boggling. He probably swears he walked to school uphill both ways too.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/23/2011 6:30:54 PM >

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