RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic"

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Ilayda -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 8:10:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arienos quote: but it is to say that men who present themselves that way tend to come off as, well, desperate... It may be you read it as desperate; it may also be a form of conditioning. I don’t personally project that image but experience has taught me few sadistic or even dominant women venture into the complexities of an overtly masculine submissive mind. I mean, I mention that it might be a bias. shrug And, like I said - it might not be that they are, simply that that's how it reads to me. I'm totally owning up to my personal perceptions. ;) I'd like to add that I feel the same way about female submissives who do the whole "worthless" spiel - and as a female switch, I do think I have perspective on that.

DesFIP -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 9:29:10 AM)
There's a preponderance of it in male porn aimed at male subs. As a result other male subs assume this reflects femdomme desires and will then present themselves as this thinking it the only way to get any interest from a femdomme even if they themselves do not share this fetish.

undergroundsea -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 10:22:21 AM)
@Peon Hi Peon :) I think human behavior is complex and this type of behavior may come from one of or a sum of multiple possible explanations. To add a datapoint, if the want for masochism comes from a build-up of energy, then I have more energy sources than the Middle East ;-) I don't see it as something that needs controlled release from time to time. I instead see it as a yearning that fluctuates in intensity. I am unsure whether the yearning or fluctuation comes from a build-up of energy--I simply do not know. I think the build-up of energy may have a role. I would characterize that energy to be sexual energy, or, at least, related to sexual energy. The response is a mix of sexual arousal and a mental good feeling, for which reason I describe the response as a psychosexual response. quote: A woman tells you that you're a worm, then you just feel yourself to be more of a worm, and that's that. I do not have a sensitivity to being called a worm because I do not feel that way about myself. For the discussion below, let us set aside other modes of response (feeling indignant because of the ego response, unhappy feelings, etc.) and focus only on the response of the masochistic component. If a woman tells me I am a worm, I do not feel myself to be more of a worm. Instead, I process it as an expression of imbalance of authority status. It's like a marine sergeant calling recruits maggots. It's not that he thinks they are maggots, or they believe they are maggots, but being able to talk down in that manner communicates the authority imbalance. If a woman tells me I am a worm and I think she believes it (suppose it's a vanilla woman with misconceptions about submissive men) even if I do not, the response is a bit different. Now it's each an expression of status and a form of emotional SM. I am affected by her want or willingness to inflict emotional discomfort, or aggressive or dominant posturing (sadist-centric masochism). There is also some vulnerability of not being accepted. If a woman pokes at a sensitivity, it is now a whole other matter. In addition to the responses above, there is now a greater state of vulnerability. How I respond is determined by the sum of the responses of the different components. If this type of treatment is not welcome, my response will come largely from the ego component. If there is some interest to engage masochistically, I will have to process this interaction in a way to deemphasize the ego component. My masochistic component responds more when there is vulnerability of the type I describe. However, I have largely interacted with women who regarded me well, which I do partially because this interaction more broadly appeals to my different components (social component, ego component), and partially because it creates a greater sense of security. I can feel greater confidence that someone who likes me will not harm me. @MariaB Thank you also for delving in deeper. quote: It seems to be much more a male fantasy. I often think about the why behind things. I agree that the desire to be humiliated or seen in this manner appears to be statistically greater in men. If what we each say is correct, why so? In addition to some of the reasons I describe above (a construct, cultural notions), I wonder if part of it reflects the type of vulnerability men are more likely to experience from a woman. Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 10:33:03 AM)
quote: I have a friend who has been married to her worthless sub for 10 years. I am curious how you or they define worthless. Is it toward posturing to show authority imbalance (similar to the marine sergeant example I give in a prior post), or is it that she truly thinks he is worthless? The latter is also possible, for there are couples where one or the other begins to think less or even lose respect for their partner. Intuitively, I expect that in such pairings, there is either enough good that offsets the traits that cause one to look down on the potential partner, or this state of feeling is achieved later in the relationship (versus entering the relationship feeling this way). I recall a group discussion where a woman said that at times she will seek out play with someone of whom she is not fond, or, at least, toward whom she holds no good feelings or strong compassion. She does this when she wants to play in a dark way and does not want affection to soften her play. At the moment I felt a bit offended by her disregard for subs. However, I also got what she meant, for the same is true from the submissive perspective. The most raw form of this scenario relies upon a sense of disdain (versus simply low degree of respect for a partner). I think the reason is because it is easier for humans to be cruel toward those whom they regard with a sense of disdain, or who they see to be beneath common people. Cheers, Sea

MissToYouRedux -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 8:15:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea ... I think the reason is because it is easier for humans to be cruel toward those whom they regard with a sense of disdain, or who they see to be beneath common people. Perhaps, but being cruel takes energy, and I personally see no reason to waste energy on people I don't like. So I agree with the Mills Brothers and always hurt the one I love. [;)] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye6FpdBOVLQ

LookieNoNookie -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 10:23:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughChances I have a hard time understanding the draw to male submissives that present as "worthless and or pathetic". For me, I don't own worthless things, nor pathetic...it might be a point of pride with me in that any lad in my service is a reflection of me...so if he is worthless and pathetic what the hell does that make me. Don't get me wrong I get off humiliating them, but that is fun and games not part of who they are and what they are worth to me. Am I alone in this?? Am I missing something?? The problem with the gene pool is there is no lifeguard...Steve Wright Chance I'm going to help you out on this: Men are different. That's the first bit...the second bit is: We're really fucking different. (By the way...this is the easiest part of the lesson...everything else after this gets waaaaaaay the fuck more complicated). There's been more than a few a thousand studies, several iterations of each....each of which (almost without debate) comes to the conclusion that men in a "definitive" role in life, as often, feel a need for release. To be released. To be removed from the "definitive nature" of their job. I'm confident that most women acknowledge that men's fantasies can be somewhat intense....a bit edgy on occasion. This (the above) is certainly one that runs to an extreme...but it's powerful. More than powerful, actually. Hmmmmm..... Not sure if I can actually explain it beyond that.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/25/2011 10:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl I'm not interested in having, and would never want, a worthless worm or pathetic person in my life. Well, I'm a worthless worm, and any Domme who tries to tell me different will be kicked up the arse and dragged out of the house by her ear. Gawwwwdamn RIGHT!!!!! Whyyyyyyy I oughta............

undergroundsea -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 11:05:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissToYouRedux Perhaps, but being cruel takes energy, and I personally see no reason to waste energy on people I don't like. So I agree with the Mills Brothers and always hurt the one I love. [;)] Fair enough. The same applies for some submissives also where enduring cruelty takes energy and they reserve submission for women who care about them. I am directing my comments at one portion of what lies within BDSM (a particular flavor of SM), and at one component of a person (the component that seeks SM) which, in practice, usually acts with other components. For a submissive, these other components create a want to be respected, liked, to preserve well being, etc. For a dominant, these other components create compassion, ethics, responsibility, a sense of affection, etc. Some people are able to temporarily isolate the SM component, which I think plays a role in the type of SM I am discussing. This type of SM can be tricky or become problematic. I am not necessarily championing this kind of play, but simply discussing the psychology of it. Cheers, Sea

LillyBoPeep -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 11:19:01 AM)
Sea, I liked how you said you're affected by her want to inflict emotional discomfort, or her aggressive posturinng. I like how you compared it to a drill sergeant calling recruits "maggots." For me, it's similar, and I'm fascinated by the complexity of a man who can both love me, and treat me like nothing. :p

LadyConstanze -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 11:24:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughChances I have a hard time understanding the draw to male submissives that present as "worthless and or pathetic". For me, I don't own worthless things, nor pathetic...it might be a point of pride with me in that any lad in my service is a reflection of me...so if he is worthless and pathetic what the hell does that make me. Don't get me wrong I get off humiliating them, but that is fun and games not part of who they are and what they are worth to me. Am I alone in this?? Am I missing something?? Chance The problem with the gene pool is there is no lifeguard...Steve Wright I'm with you. Somebody who describes himself as a worthless worm simply holds no attraction, chances are that he'll be just a drain on my life and energy, I don't have time for that, plus why would I want a worm if I can have an intelligent person who's a joy to be with? Maybe I'm not having a worm fetish... Additionally those "worthless worms" are most likely guys who just watched too much porn and easily turn passive aggressive, plus I'm willing to bet that they'd be off in a huff, complaining lots if you happen to call them a worthless bug instead of a worthless worm, after all the woman they pick is just the life support system for their fetish fulfillment...

LadyHibiscus -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 11:36:26 AM)
Thanks for your post Lilly, that gave me a clarity moment! :) I can objectify my sub, use him, treat him like a fucktoy or punching bag. BECAUSE I have regard for him. If he was someone I had no use for, I wouldn't be interested enough to do the other things.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 1:04:59 PM)
Right! Plus, there's a tension there you don't find anywhere else. Beating someone you don't like, kay no biggie. But someone you love - so much more complicated. Totally electric. :p

Soyokaze -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 1:20:33 PM)
Someone sent me a pretty demeaning message and I replied straight faced to try to see where she was coming from. When I realized she was just messing around for fun, I played into it for amusement. Was kind of fun as playful banter, but definitely rather be subservient and useful than pathetic and worthless : )

bighappygoth39 -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/27/2011 7:07:37 PM)
To me, the words 'subservient' and 'useful' both give off very positive vibes, whereas 'pathetic' and 'worthless' give off very negative vibes, and I'm all about the positive, so I'll stick with those, I think. [:D]

MariaB -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/28/2011 3:35:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea I am curious how you or they define worthless. Is it toward posturing to show authority imbalance (similar to the marine sergeant example I give in a prior post), or is it that she truly thinks he is worthless? The latter is also possible, for there are couples where one or the other begins to think less or even lose respect for their partner. Intuitively, I expect that in such pairings, there is either enough good that offsets the traits that cause one to look down on the potential partner, or this state of feeling is achieved later in the relationship (versus entering the relationship feeling this way). I do know she adores him and he adores her. Its a strong and lasting relationship for sure and so no, she doesn't really think he is pathetic. I don't believe I have met a more confident guy than him. He runs a successful company and bubbles over with happy energy. Perhaps its that very confidence that allows himself to be put in such a place by his wife. As much as he leads, he needs a leader and so within the privacy of their four walls he is happy for her to be the officer. I don't believe she is just doing this for his benefit either. She clearly gets something out of this dynamic. quote: The most raw form of this scenario relies upon a sense of disdain (versus simply low degree of respect for a partner). I think the reason is because it is easier for humans to be cruel toward those whom they regard with a sense of disdain, or who they see to be beneath common people. I agree with this but from what I have witnessed out there on the scene, I think a lot of these women are just playing and feeding the mans fantasy. They believe its what he wants and become little more than a service top to his needs. The intricacies of D/s are far more in depth than insulting someone and I personally believe that if I put myself in a role of constantly doing this to a man, then eventually I would feel a revolution towards him but then I am a woman who has to sometimes admire my subs strengths. Knowing my friends husband and understanding his strengths, I no longer believe, as I once did, that men who desire to be belittled and insulted are weak insecure men. I'm sure some are but I also believe that the majority of these men and sometimes women are in fact confident enough in themselves to go to that place. They are not inhibited by their own ego, they are not affected by their own vanity. They fully understand that they are in a power exchange situation and accept it for what it is. Women perhaps find this harder to do because women tend to be more sensitive when it comes to compliments and insults. A woman becomes aware that she is desirable from the moment she grows breasts but she will often question her own desirability. You only have to look at these forums to see that women often react far worse than men if they feel they are being put down by someone. Men often shrug insults off and just move on to another topic, whilst women can get very upset and spiteful.

Succi -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/29/2011 4:05:20 AM)
throws her two pennies into the pond I straddle this line, actually. And, it might be petty, but to me everything's in the words. Anyone who's even glanced at my profile can probably figure out language is just as much a fetish area for me as any physical component xD Like, in my play, almost like clockwork, I will stop whatever we're doing for a moment and go along the lines of "do you deserve this?". The correct answer, to me, is "no, I'm unworthy" or some iteration. But to me, that's different -enough- from the "worthless/useless" treatment. "Unworthy" to me is like the 300lb man trying to lose weight so he can join the Marines, or the student with average scores ramping up their senior year of high school to get the Ivy League's attention. A situation where one isn't ideal for their goal, but is doing their damnedest to make it happen even if the effort proves futile. And on my end, I hope it reinforces that what I'm offering them is as much a gift as what they give me (and in my benevolence have decided to grant them even though I could be doing other things or other subs with my time =P). "Worthless/Useless" crosses into "I'm not going to try because it would be pointless" territory, and kinda takes me out of that space. Maybe I'm just too literal, but if someone WAS worthless they wouldn't even be any good as a sex toy, right? It's almost a form of "I love you", I think. I tend to see people as souls of unlimited potential, and out of all those infinitely noble, world shaking things I could be spending this moment on (you know, curing cancer, running for president, sheltering the homeless =P), indulging myself with a sub -isn't- something to brag about, I guess =P But I still choose to, even if it isn't worth my blood and sweat, I will still give you (figuratively) them without reserve. Well, -I- think it's romantic, anyways. As a result of this habit though, my profile attracts a lot of those guys it seems, but past experience teaches me it's way too hard to untrain it (too much time to spend at least for someone who identifies as emotionally lesbian and would only have guys for scene play mostly). It would probably be easier if I wanted to -remove- that dynamic from their habits, but I think it's akin to a recovering alcoholic or former smoker taking one or two drinks and puffs and falling right back into their comfort zone, I ask them to graze the edge but not overdo it, so it just ends up being a frustrating mess for both parties. And I need words, frankly. I don't really think I know anyone who doesn't, and I'm even having a hard time imagining COMPLETELY silent play time xD And I admit it, sometimes I slip into the more "harsh" language, but that's usually mid-coitus when my mental thesaurus just isn't worth the RAM I give it normally =P Just thought I'd offer my point of view from the "almost" other side of the dynamic.

RawHoney -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/29/2011 12:01:41 PM)
I for one am not into humiliation or degradation. I have a similar reaction to the term "worthless" that most of the other ladies who have posted do. I enjoy the A-type personalities, very confident and assured of their own worth. For me talking that sort of man and having him adore the very ground I walk on is incredibly sexy. I do like to make my toys blush and squirm in embarrassment sometimes, but I find that to be something quite different.

SorceressJ -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/30/2011 12:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RawHoney I for one am not into humiliation or degradation. I have a similar reaction to the term "worthless" that most of the other ladies who have posted do. I enjoy the A-type personalities, very confident and assured of their own worth. For me talking that sort of man and having him adore the very ground I walk on is incredibly sexy. I do like to make my toys blush and squirm in embarrassment sometimes, but I find that to be something quite different. THIS! and also THIS from LadyC: quote: I'm with you. Somebody who describes himself as a worthless worm simply holds no attraction, chances are that he'll be just a drain on my life and energy, I don't have time for that, plus why would I want a worm if I can have an intelligent person who's a joy to be with? Maybe I'm not having a worm fetish... Thank you Ladies. )O( My sentiments exactly. [sm=2cents.gif] ETA: in fact, these quotes mirrored my own sentiments so exactly, I combined them and made them a quote in my profile on the other side, so everyone could see, and gave you both credit. Again, I thank you.

Politesub53 -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/30/2011 4:56:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Well, I'm a worthless worm, and any Domme who tries to tell me different will be kicked up the arse and dragged out of the house by her ear. Topping from the bottom again Peon ? [8D]

OttersSwim -> RE: What is the deal with "worthless/pathetic" (11/30/2011 6:54:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Well, I'm a worthless worm, and any Domme who tries to tell me different will be kicked up the arse and dragged out of the house by her ear. Topping from the bottom again Peon ? [8D] No no, that is a line from his Forced Fem Fantasy... [;)]

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