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innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 8:55:46 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/ariz-grandfather-roughed-police-walmart-200140129.html

Apparently, the man was trying to protect his grandchild, who shouldn't have been there to begin with. Even if the child hadn't been there, should police have assumed the grandfather was shoplifting when he wasn't trying to leave the store with the item? Also, should Black Friday shoppers be allowed to conceal items while inside the store so other shoppers don't snatch the items out of their hands, which often happens on Black Friday and leads to violence? What do you think?


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:00:21 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		I'm sure that someone will come in and blame it on OWS and Obama.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:02:21 AM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Two sides to every story, and NO you shouldn't be able to "hide" any items under your shirt to "protect" them from unruly shoppers.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:02:57 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/ariz-grandfather-roughed-police-walmart-200140129.html

Apparently, the man was trying to protect his grandchild, who shouldn't have been there to begin with. Even if the child hadn't been there, should police have assumed the grandfather was shoplifting when he wasn't trying to leave the store with the item? Also, should Black Friday shoppers be allowed to conceal items while inside the store so other shoppers don't snatch the items out of their hands, which often happens on Black Friday and leads to violence? What do you think?



"The best things in life are not things."


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:13:58 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Two sides to every story, and NO you shouldn't be able to "hide" any items under your shirt to "protect" them from unruly shoppers.


A few years ago, a young child under the age of 10 was punched in the face by an adult over a Tickle Me Elmo. This took place in a small city in Kansas. I shudder to think what it's like in big cities. On Black Friday, it's dangerous for customers to keep some items in plain sight.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:47:14 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I went crazy one Christmas. My son wanted power rangers. ALL of them. They were the "in" thing that year. Not quite as popular as the Cabbage Kids... but close. I decided I needed two of each. One set to give him now, another set to put away. I drove from Myrtle Beach, to Charlotte NC (4 hours) to pick up two. I went to Florence SC, (2 hours) to pick up two more. In Charleston I found 5. That elusive one kept slipping through my fingers. A friend working in the Walmart close to me called and said they were getting a shipment in at 2 am one night. I got another nurse to come in and cover for me. I went and waited while they unloaded, then waited till they were put out... and snatched up the final one.... only to have a woman try and beat me up over it. I won, took my prize home, still dazed that a toy caused a woman to go crazy enough to hit someone. She went to jail for hitting a cop whoo was called in after out little fight.

They were selling for 10 dollars. His collection is now worth over 200 dollars... the ones still in the box.

But people go crazier now. Its dangerous. Some woman was reported to have used peppery spray.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57331509/black-friday-pepper-spray-suspect-surrenders/

There are other cases of violence on black friday in that article. Now, I just give out money and Im done.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:50:27 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Two sides to every story, and NO you shouldn't be able to "hide" any items under your shirt to "protect" them from unruly shoppers.


A few years ago, a young child under the age of 10 was punched in the face by an adult over a Tickle Me Elmo. This took place in a small city in Kansas. I shudder to think what it's like in big cities. On Black Friday, it's dangerous for customers to keep some items in plain sight.



Is a toy really worth a potential felony conviction?


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 9:59:24 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Two sides to every story, and NO you shouldn't be able to "hide" any items under your shirt to "protect" them from unruly shoppers.


A few years ago, a young child under the age of 10 was punched in the face by an adult over a Tickle Me Elmo. This took place in a small city in Kansas. I shudder to think what it's like in big cities. On Black Friday, it's dangerous for customers to keep some items in plain sight.



Is a toy really worth a potential felony conviction?


Evidently, some folks think so. Pepper spray, fights, striking juveniles. Im glad I was sleeping in a nice warm bed when this went down.

To those who wonder if arrests can be made prior to leaving a store, they apparently can. I was once in a mall in FL talking to one of my students and this guy got tackled by security right in front of me. I was still chatting to my student and critiquing their technique (very damn sloppy) when one of them looked up and said "You want some of this when I'm done with him?"

I was kinda surprised n shocked.

Fortunately for all concerned, the kid I was talking to was an employee and looked at the guy shaking his head and just said "Dude, you DONT wanna take coach S on". I kinda laughed and wandered on off. Aparently, that security guard had a reputation for being a dick but he was apparently within his rights to aprehend a shoplifter within the store.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 12:26:26 PM   
tolovetolaugh


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Seems like a misunderstanding all the way around. I feel gramps should be let go with an apology and his medical bills covered.
The officer involved might benefit from some kind of training class, so he can learn to exert more control in a take down. but no official reprimand.

Walmart and other stores should find someway to make the violence a bit less on Black Friday- bigger inventories or a lottery maybe.


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 12:32:05 PM   
hlen5


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How about adults not punching kids or crowds not trampling someone to death over bits of plastic to give on the day meant to celebrate the birth of Christ??

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 12:32:33 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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This whole ONE DAY "Black Friday" thing has gotten out of hand.  I certainly understand the impetus for "Black Friday", but year after year the violence and injuries seem to grow.  If retailers were smart, they'd all agree to a "Black Friday WEEKEND" or possibly a WEEK LONG sale.  In doing so (i.e., spreading out the shopping days/sale items), they'd accomplish:

1.  Fewer injuries
2.  Less store damage
3.  Calm shoppers
4.  GREATER SALES/PROFITS!!!  (more time to buy = more people buying)

It's just plain fucking STUPID that the stores haven't gone to "3 day" or "week" long event by now.



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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 12:35:34 PM   
tolovetolaugh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


This whole ONE DAY "Black Friday" thing has gotten out of hand.  I certainly understand the impetus for "Black Friday", but year after year the violence and injuries seem to grow.  If retailers were smart, they'd all agree to a "Black Friday WEEKEND" or possibly a WEEK LONG sale.  In doing so (i.e., spreading out the shopping days/sale items), they'd accomplish:

1.  Fewer injuries
2.  Less store damage
3.  Calm shoppers
4.  GREATER SALES/PROFITS!!!  (more time to buy = more people buying)

It's just plain fucking STUPID that the stores haven't gone to "3 day" or "week" long event by now.



That is a good idea though... I like that for one day I can cower in my home, and the next its over. Even the drivers in my area go nuts on black Friday.
It's like everyone suddenly turns into a New Jersey driver!


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 12:44:43 PM   
laborboleta


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/1/2011
From: NYC, now in PA
Status: offline 		I distinctly remember, years ago, going shopping on the day after Thanksgiving simply because it was a convenient time since I was off from school or work. No big crowds, no riots. At some point the day became Black Friday and it's gotten worse and more violent every year. I just don't see the point.

Maybe the stores should just remain closed on that day. (Yeah, like THAT would ever happen).

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 1:30:14 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 1:35:53 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		Stores and police need to realize that while concealing something on a regular day usually means shoplifting, that's often not the case on Black Friday. Adults may need both hands free to hang on to children (who shouldn't be there to begin with because it's too dangerous) or may be concealing a hot ticket item until they reach the cashier to avoid being attacked by other shoppers. I think limited item "door buster" sales should be made illegal unless they're online because too many people are getting hurt. 

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 2:18:21 PM   
hlen5


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Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Stores and police need to realize that while concealing something on a regular day usually means shoplifting, that's often not the case on Black Friday. Adults may need both hands free to hang on to children (who shouldn't be there to begin with because it's too dangerous) or may be concealing a hot ticket item until they reach the cashier to avoid being attacked by other shoppers. I think limited item "door buster" sales should be made illegal unless they're online because too many people are getting hurt. 


I don't think the problem is with the stores or the police. The problem is people acting like starving beasts over material crap. People acting like mindless sheep buying what Madison Ave says their life is incomplete without is the problem.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 2:54:21 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Stores and police need to realize that while concealing something on a regular day usually means shoplifting, that's often not the case on Black Friday. Adults may need both hands free to hang on to children (who shouldn't be there to begin with because it's too dangerous) or may be concealing a hot ticket item until they reach the cashier to avoid being attacked by other shoppers. I think limited item "door buster" sales should be made illegal unless they're online because too many people are getting hurt. 


I don't think the problem is with the stores or the police. The problem is people acting like starving beasts over material crap. People acting like mindless sheep buying what Madison Ave says their life is incomplete without is the problem.


Well, yes and no...

1)  Yes, people are acting like idiots over material goods -- again, hence the reason I believe the "Black Friday" (one day thing) should be a sale extended over 3 to 7 days.

2)  No, the STORE and POLICE erred.  Here's why... technically, it's not considered "shoplifting" till one has PASSED the checkout counter -- i.e., showing a clear indication that the person is NOT planning on purchasing the item.

From this particular story: 

"Assistant Chief Hall said a Walmart employee alerted the officer involved that Newman had put a video game in his waistband, and that the officer approached Newman and started to arrest him."

Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066554/Body-slammed-grandfather-trying-save-grandson-8-trampled-frenzied-mob-Walmart-shoppers.html


Thus, he had NOT passed the checkout counter, so it's technically not "shoplifting" at this point.


3)  The "Grandfather" (Newman) acted like an idiot when confronted by the Police Officer.  Again, from this particular story:

"When he had handcuffs on one of Newman's wrists, Assistant Chief Hall said Newman told the officer, 'I'm not going to jail,' and started pulling away and flailing.  The police spokesman said Newman continued resisting and the officer decided to do a leg sweep and take him to the ground."

Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066554/Body-slammed-grandfather-trying-save-grandson-8-trampled-frenzied-mob-Walmart-shoppers.html


That was fucking stupid.  He should have remained calm and explained WHY he'd put the item in his "waistband" if, in fact, he had intended on purchasing the item.



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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 2:57:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I don't think the problem is with the stores or the police. The problem is people acting like starving beasts over material crap. People acting like mindless sheep buying what Madison Ave says their life is incomplete without is the problem.


I agree hlen. That christmas I wrote about was the last one I did anything like that for.

I did shop black friday. I went to the butcher to get deli meats and cheeses for the man and his co-workers so they wouldnt have to figure out what to get to eat while they were slammed with business. Bread, lettuce and tomatoes went with,,, I bought a pop on my way back, and that was the extent of shopping.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 6:26:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Thus, he had NOT passed the checkout counter, so it's technically not "shoplifting" at this point.




Actually it is shoplifting as soon as it was concealed under Arizona law. I love the subject line "innocent grandfather". Regardless of the intent he wasnt innocent, and you can safely assume that when a subject line calls someone innocent they were guilty of something.

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RE: innocent grandfather hurt by police - 11/26/2011 8:36:59 PM   
Owner59


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