Immigrants and Workers (Full Version)

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ArtCatDom -> Immigrants and Workers (5/27/2006 9:55:01 PM)

Just sharing some thoughts.

1. Institute a living wage. Wages are ridiculously low currently. In real dollars, minimum wage is at the lowest point in fifty years. Raising minimum wage raises all wages. Setting it to an appropriate living wage will reduce welfare rolls and welfare incentive.

2. Allow companies a single warning about illegal immigrants. Fine non-compliant companies 5-10% of their gross profits every time thereafter they are found with illegals on the rolls. Prohibit claiming the fine on taxes as loss, investment or other deduction. Smack companies directly in the pocket book. Investor outrage is a powerful tool for manipulating corporations.

Both of these measures would assuredly put some companies out of business, including a host of small companies which are more sensitive to economic pressure. However, I don't feel much sympathy with a company going under because it paid for undermining our border security and was complicit with human smuggling. Nor would I feel a terrible weight of guilt for putting out businesses that cannot afford to pay a living wage. Most small businesses fail. If their business model cannot support a living wage, it's a business model that deserves to fail.

In the end, illegal immigration is at least mitigated and the poorest of our workers are receiving a fair wage.

*meow*




pahunkboy -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (5/28/2006 7:58:14 AM)

On point 2- most corporations will take the cheaper route. Their alegence is to make money for the shareholders. Not serve the commmunity. If it costs 40k to dispose of a waste product- but the total fine would br 5k to dump it in the river- then the waste gets dumped.

On point 1. Real wages since 1980 have stagnated. [not sure about 50 years- things were booming for WW2 GIs]

Fines are not enuff- there needs to be more jail time for CEOs. 

*claps to the jury per Ken Lay* *standing ovation to that jury*    Jury harvesting did not work. [this time]

Im not real concerned about a minimum wage. That can be complicated. However- I firmly beleive there should be a maximum wage. For instance- one company I worked for, the CEO could only earn 68 times the wage of the lowest paid empoyee. [logistics woudl be hard with outsourcing and pay "packages"]

Good thread Cat!  :-)
...........

* still clapping per the Ken Lay- Enron jury!!!! *



sub4hire -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 9:30:27 AM)

Unfortunately we live in a country where we have 50 smaller countries within one large one.
Our states all are governed totally different.  In some states the laws are more stringent and upheld.

Last year while visiting relatives in Nebraska the feds were cracking down hard on some of the largest organizations because of illegal immigrants.
Yet, in other states they tend to look the other way.
There are many corrupt politicians taking bribes.  The whole system needs an overhaul.

My personal peeve is the environment.  Living in California where our laws are some of the strictest in the nation I often wonder why other states don't follow suit?
I was in Oklahoma about a month ago for various reasons.  My aunt and uncle are there.  While driving in the car my Uncle stated how my father would have stopped to pick up an aluminum can discarded along the road.  We get something like 150 a pound out here for them.  While in Oklahoma..a good price is about 80 cents a pound.  Though in Oklahoma they don't pay any redemption value the way we have to on every can we sell out here.
Which to anybody only tells you there will be less recycling in Oklahoma.  Which in turn will make more waste and fill the landfills faster...etc...etc. 
Aluminum cans is one small issue.
In California we have a smog check.  If your car fails you have to pay anywhere from 100 to much more ( I think the cut off is like 1500) to get it to pass.  Along with registration fee's..etc.
In Oklahoma they used to have a safety check.  They would walk around the car and make sure everything was in working order.  No smog.  Lights work you get your registration.  Well, apparently someone wanted to charge more than the 5 dollar fee so they outlawed safety checks all together.  Now you have unsafe cars driving down the highways.
What about the polution these cars are producing?
We all live in the same country, the laws should be the same for all of us.  Whether how hard or lenient they are they should be the same.
Why aren't they?



Saint -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 9:59:57 AM)

We all live in the same country, the laws should be the same for all of us.  Whether how hard or lenient they are they should be the same.

I dont agree. The cost of living in california should not reflect the cost of living here in Michigan. When my last insurance company wanted to raise my full coverage on my truck from 120 a month up to 260 a month based on california insurance costs, I told them to go fuck themselves and changed companies. There is no reason a state that has so much more overcrowding, so much more pollution and crime, and such an increased cost of living, should be allowed to set the precedent for other states in the nation.

A lot of my friends fled california because of this. Yes, FLED! I lived out there for 4 years, so I am very well aware of the costs. When you have couples who are both working 2 full time jobs and still cant pay their bills, their rent, etc.etc. there is a problem. When it costs nearly twice as much for cost of living as it does elsewhere in the nation, there is definately a problem.

No, we all may live in the same country, but do not think that applying the exact same laws nationwide is just. Each state is different, each demographic group is different, each cost of living per state is different, each level of comfort and lifestyle per state is different.

The only states that would benefit from sweeping current state laws away and implementing national ones all the way across the country, are those states that are already over crowded, over polluted, and over ran with outragious costs and ridiculously low levels of living. Hmm, guess california would be right up there at the top then.. huh?



pahunkboy -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 10:33:46 AM)

I could never afford California housing or living costs. Pennsylvania has some nice areas.

Auto insurance?  Mine  $400 a year.                   A  YEAR.




pahunkboy -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 10:42:40 AM)

sub4hire- PA has a good % recycled. On many things it does not pay for me to drop off the stuff on the said time and day.

I have carpal tunnel in both hands. So- to scrape off a lable from a jar is hard for me. -as a result- I try to buy plastic. In case the garbage police fine me. True- I might be able to have a say before a judge, but with a broken back- my pain levels would make that a burden. So one might say- get a helper. Well- I have trouble handling shovelling of snow.
It is hard to find a helper on that. Grass cutting - HA!!! Dream on.
On some days I am unable to bath, do dishes, and take out the garbage. [pls no sympathy....]  My point is- not everyone has the luxury of full use of their body.

The govt is going too far with criminalizing every little thing.

CA does consider the environment. I think that is a good thing.




sub4hire -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 10:57:22 AM)

I was not advocating that California is the place to be.  I live here currently out of necessity not because I want to.  Actually I am currently having a home built in another state so I can also flee at first chance.

My point is, if we had the same laws everywhere one state would not stand out we would all be the same.  There probably would'nt be a rush to be here over there. 
The point is, yes California ruins the environment but so does South Dakota and Michigan and everywhere else.  If you want to make a law...make it for everyone.  Same laws period.
That would also mean less laws overall because there would be more of a public outcry about injust ones.  Just as the outcry was loud enough in Oklahoma when they wanted the safety inspection to go from 5 dollars to 8.  The people cried out and now they aren't even paying the 5 anymore.
Was it worth it overall?  I think I'd have to say no because now there are probably more accidents due to unsafe cars.  Never the less the public got the law changed.
Tip for scraping bottles....soak said bottle in warm water.  The label usually falls right off.  Oh, by the way we don't get paid for those sorts of bottles here either. 



pahunkboy -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:05:32 AM)

The state of Illinois has never had a state inspection. They seem to be fine there.

Ild have to disagree with the $5-$7 for an inspection sticker. How safe are you in your computer chair? A seat belt maybe. Im drifting off here. lol. In PA many inspection place "find" "unsafe" items, simply to rack up a bill. Go to a chain, Ild almost bet - they will come up with several repairs. Go to a guy off the beaten track. He usually is abit easier.

Soaking jars in hot water hasnt helped for me. It is a bit easier-but still takes alot of elbow grease. Alot of retired in this town. Hands with atrophy.

[I am sorry to sound argumentive]

I guess the bottem line- is IMO mr policeman is not always my friend.



sub4hire -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:20:00 AM)

I only stay up to date on those states that I have some sort of ties in.  So....maybe 10 of the 50 we have.
I believe the last time I registered a car I went to a state inspection station.  There were no fines...it was primarily...if you have a broken headlight get it fixed before you pass.  Now, there are cars driving around without headlights of any kind.  Without fenders...etc.
It had been about 15 years since I had spent any length of time back there.  Life has changed..and not for the better.
I  pretty much agree with you we have just come to the conclusion on a different path.
I took a sebatacle from these boards a while back.  Just found better things to do with my spare time.  I'm not back yet, though it is nice to find a few here I will come back to read again.



meatcleaver -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:27:26 AM)

Won't increasing minimum wages encourage corporations to outsource even more jobs where they can to China etc?



UtopianRanger -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:38:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Won't increasing minimum wages encourage corporations to outsource even more jobs where they can to China etc?


It sure will. Increasing the minimum is a horrible idea.



 - R



pahunkboy -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:47:47 AM)

IMO -a neocon would abolish the minumin wage. Bush suspended prevailing wage just after Katrina.

Anything goes with the neocon crowd. Most of us dont have nannys, servants.

Once the border to the south is opened up completely- watch, bling. No more minumn wage.

Note to Canadians- y'all better have a passport! [per bush policy]




Mercnbeth -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 11:59:21 AM)

quote:

Won't increasing minimum wages encourage corporations to outsource even more jobs where they can to China etc?


Meat,
Yup! But not that far away, it's already being down in Mexico as well as in countries further south of the border.

Amazing how so many naively believe more laws and more regulations will make things better. Remember our elected officials are attorneys who weren't smart enough to make it in the corporate world. When they create a new law or regulation the corporations have the Wharton and Harvard graduates who didn't get C's and D's like Bush and Kerry. There are already enough laws and regulations on the books to address the issues including eliminating illegal aliens. What's laking is the will to enforce them.

The minimum wage will go up and does regardless of federal or state action. It's supply and demand. Our workforce, especially in CA, is saturated with illegals who don't argue with payment of $3 / hour. As long as they are creating that artificial floor there is no pressure to pay the McDonald's workers more money.

Whether it's the cost of a hamburger or the a 'slurpee' drink at the 7/11 wages are determined by a simple formula and profit margin. Increase the minimum wage from $5/hour to $10/hour won't increase the operating budget. The result will be instead of 6 people working for $5/hour you'll have 3 people working the same work for $10/hour. In effect the rise in minimum wage will produce more unemployment, inflated prices, and be counter productive.

Now if 'profit' becomes a bad word the solution becomes nationalizing the workforce and spreading out the wealth. Let everyone live and work for the 'common' good. Eliminate the states and become an American version of the USSR. That worked.



meatcleaver -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 12:11:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Eliminate the states and become an American version of the USSR. That worked.


I can just visualise you in a red bandana and driving a Lada.



Moloch -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/2/2006 12:21:35 PM)

Yeah I looked at PA and considered moving there due to their Gunlaws, but WNY is pretty damn good copared to shit holes like NYC and Cali.  I hear alot of country poeple bitching about people from the city moving in the country driving up the prices and recreating the same BS big city laws and bull crap. CA "envoriomental laws" suck in a lot of ways, you should look at their emissions test's and car AC systems test. If your car is older then 10 years you are gonna have to put in more money then its worth in alot of cases to make it street legal in CA  compared to other states.

CA politicians are "Im smarter then you type". Hell look at how they pass their laws!!  Tom Cruise comes on some talk show, talks about he he bought an ultra-sonic machine. Next thing you know moron law maker pass a law banning the use of ultra-sonic machines unless you are a doctor. 

Edit: Forgot to add Liberal or Neo-Con doesnt matter every one wants to get the hell out of commie-fornia



popeye1250 -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/3/2006 8:00:58 PM)

Good post.
I don't know how lawyers can keep demanding such high pay scales with the absolute number of them!
I counted the pages of Plumbers in the yellow pages here, 6 pages.
Then I counted the number of pages of Lawyers in the Yellow pages, 54.
Try and get a Plumber!
When is the law of supply and demand going to kick in for Lawyers?
They all think they're worth $200 per hour but they bitch and complain if a plumber charges them $85 per hour and a Master Plumber has more education than a Lawyer.
It takes 12 years to become a Master Plumber, you can become a Lawyer in 7 years.
There are TONS of Lawyers out there now!
Every divorced woman who used to sell real estate and then went to school nights to become Lawyers it seems.



Wolf1020 -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/3/2006 8:20:55 PM)

yeah popeye

but if someone breaks into my house I shoot them and end up in court I want the guy that is that good he can charge several hundred an hour.  The butt crack hanging out master plumber doesn't hold my freedom in his hands [;)]



popeye1250 -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/4/2006 10:18:59 AM)

Wolf, and you'll have no problem finding one either!
They're like weeds, they're Everywhere!



Wolf1020 -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/4/2006 10:26:30 AM)

true but some weeds are worse then others lol



pinkee -> RE: Immigrants and Workers (6/4/2006 11:58:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I was not advocating that California is the place to be.  I live here currently out of necessity not because I want to.  Actually I am currently having a home built in another state so I can also flee at first chance.

My point is, if we had the same laws everywhere one state would not stand out we would all be the same.  There probably would'nt be a rush to be here over there. 
The point is, yes California ruins the environment but so does South Dakota and Michigan and everywhere else.  If you want to make a law...make it for everyone.  Same laws period.
That would also mean less laws overall because there would be more of a public outcry about injust ones.  Just as the outcry was loud enough in Oklahoma when they wanted the safety inspection to go from 5 dollars to 8.  The people cried out and now they aren't even paying the 5 anymore.
Was it worth it overall?  I think I'd have to say no because now there are probably more accidents due to unsafe cars.  Never the less the public got the law changed.
Tip for scraping bottles....soak said bottle in warm water.  The label usually falls right off.  Oh, by the way we don't get paid for those sorts of bottles here either. 



This is complex subject miss (or is it mrs. now?).  State's rights vs. Federalism.  Unfunded mandates.  Etc.  The laws on certain subjects vary from state to state because Congress has not excersized its broad authority to pass federal legislation on the matter.
 
It is easier to influence a county commissioner than a state legislator; and a state legislator than a US Senator.  Personally, i think there is some access to government and its lawmakers which could be lost if all legislation were federal.  Etc.
 
<Wants wedding pictures!  Many happy years together!>
 
pinkee



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