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Question about conservatism - 5/27/2006 9:56:11 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
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Status: offline 		I've been thinking a lot about this.

When did "conservatives" move from being pro-market to being pro-business? Why did they do it? Why is the differance downplayed, even by their rivals?

*meow*
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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/27/2006 10:19:21 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I guess you'll have to wait for a conservative to answer that question.  I'm still stuck on this paradox.  Ask 100 conservatives whether the government should interfere with commerce, and all 100 will say no.  Ask the same 100 conservatives whether the state of Alabama has the authority to ban the sale of sex toys, and at least 70 of them will say yes.  Conservatism isn't a coherent position.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/27/2006 11:22:03 PM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		Not to read too much into this, ArtCatDom - but are you an anti-corporate Libertarian? Some libertarians argue that corporations are government created entities that have no legitimate place in a free market scheme (in other words, the laissez-faire ideal means no government interference including favors for fictive legal constructs like corporations).

What are your thoughts?

The answer to part of your question is that everyone is in bed with big business except the parties that never win. Members of one party can hardly critique the members of the other party for doing the exact same things they do themselves. Everyone sucks corporate cock.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 4:30:25 AM   
Level


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quote:

Lam said: Ask 100 conservatives whether the government should interfere with commerce, and all 100 will say no.  Ask the same 100 conservatives whether the state of Alabama has the authority to ban the sale of sex toys, and at least 70 of them will say yes.  Conservatism isn't a coherent position.


quote:

Chaingang said:  Members of one party can hardly critique the members of the other party for doing the exact same things they do themselves. Everyone sucks corporate cock.


You both make excellent points.
 
Art, greed and weakness and excessive self-interests make people do funny things.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 9:27:35 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		That's been the Green-Party line, and I wish they'd drop it, because it's misleading.  The Republican Party sucks a lot more corporate cock than the Democratic Party does.  If you look at where corporations send their cash, it's overwhelmingly to the Republicans.  Granted, the system is dysfunctional and campaign finance needs to be reformed, but I don't think it does any good in the long run to pretend that both major parties are equally beholden to corporate interests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

The answer to part of your question is that everyone is in bed with big business except the parties that never win. Members of one party can hardly critique the members of the other party for doing the exact same things they do themselves. Everyone sucks corporate cock.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 9:58:36 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		LMAO-"corporate cock"-- ROFLMAO.  yeah the peons usually get the shaft.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 10:09:52 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Hello Cat.

During the last election friendships ended- people were very unwilling to talk things out. I kept the peace in a small private message baord I run. The only rule we have is no personal attacks. We spun off of a different board- since we were not allowed to post about religion or politics.

I felt it was important to keep the dialogue going with the other side. I have never had to delete or reprimand there.

A member likes and trusts bush. [many simply prefer not to state their afiliation] She was my 1st moderator.

I spoke to her the other night from Texas. She says- she does not recognize this [govt] as conservative. [as she knows it] She then went on to say that I ought to run for public office. [Im flatterred but --I wont]

She was told the current leaders are conservative- but she cant identify how so.

I feel- it is important to keep a dialogue with all sides.

One conclussion of the phone call:  ?this is the best and brightest they [americas parties] can offer?  both parties.  ....pick a name- this is the best we can come up with.

Lou Dobbs guest said it best....." In America we glorify mediocity"



---the peasants will revolt?

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 4:43:22 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I consider myself conservative when it comes to economics. I don't believe most of the current group claiming the name conservative are. In fact I see very little difference between the parties in general. Most support a welfare state, including business. It's just a tag anymore to get votes by associating yourself with ideas rarely displayed anymore. My view is government should only interact in in business to ensure safety, regulate environmental policies, etc... I completely object to any subsidies, in any circumstance, especially business. But even if you don't agree with the game you still have to play it, because there is no other game in town. So, that's that.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 6:17:11 PM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		Even the creation of a corporation is a kind of subsidy. The main thing being "limited liability for debt." In other words, a corporation acts as a person, creates debt like a person, but is not actually a person. If the corporation goes bankrupt its actually possible to walk away with some of your money but the fictional corporation is kaput.

No one's going to fix it, but the wrong turn in democracy - or in a democratic republic - is corporate law.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 7:01:39 PM   
subtlesubie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The Republican Party sucks a lot more corporate cock than the Democratic Party does.  If you look at where corporations send their cash, it's overwhelmingly to the Republicans. 




That's true but I am not sure why given that Democrats have historically been better for the stock market.
http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/futureinvest/3022

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 7:29:25 PM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		Because the Republicans concentrate the wealth while the Democrats try to spread it around a little. The Republican party has become the haven for extreme right-wing nutters legislating morality as well as the increasingly bold plutocracy that traditionally stayed behind the curtains.

A good economy requires money in circulation. That money in turn becomes a water that lifts all boats. Right now we are heavily into a cheap labor cycle, and that has consequences - nationally and I would argue internationally also.

The 8 years of Bush will go down as possibly pivotal in the destruction of the american middle class.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 7:32:33 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		The destruction of more than that, I'd predict.  The middle class will come back.  I'm not sure the environment will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

The 8 years of Bush will go down as possibly pivotal in the destruction of the american middle class.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/28/2006 9:16:07 PM   
lisa1978


Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline 		Conservitism use to stand for minimal goverment and therfore minimal taxes. As far as being about free market... follow the money. One thing Rep and Dems have in common, they think the American public is stupid and do not vote based on free market or pro business issues.

At some point between Reagan and George W. the term was stolen and bastersized and spun to try to mean "we love America more than Democrats and people should behave like we want them to and we will care about being fiscal responsable when a Democrat is in office".

I will be honest I moved from a state that was right in the middle politically to a red state and here conservatism has really nothing to do with an overall view of how a government should run but as a way someone identifies themselves as a superior being. Sort of like a belonging to an exclusive club or something.

I think becaus of the growing opinion that George W. is a failure even by most Republicans who are not passionate about certain boutique issues that the term and idea of Libertarian is now becoming popular. It is a way for real Republicans to try to reclaim there party they have lost.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 4:08:11 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

Conservitism use to stand for minimal goverment and therfore minimal taxes. As far as being about free market... follow the money. One thing Rep and Dems have in common, they think the American public is stupid and do not vote based on free market or pro business issues.

At some point between Reagan and George W. the term was stolen and bastersized and spun to try to mean "we love America more than Democrats and people should behave like we want them to and we will care about being fiscal responsable when a Democrat is in office".

I will be honest I moved from a state that was right in the middle politically to a red state and here conservatism has really nothing to do with an overall view of how a government should run but as a way someone identifies themselves as a superior being. Sort of like a belonging to an exclusive club or something.

I think becaus of the growing opinion that George W. is a failure even by most Republicans who are not passionate about certain boutique issues that the term and idea of Libertarian is now becoming popular. It is a way for real Republicans to try to reclaim there party they have lost.



Well, a lot of Republicans are horrified at the social side of Libertarianism, so I'm not sure how many would really want to join the ranks.
 
As for some of the economic issues raised by others, I wonder if it will be possible to maintain a high-level middle class, as globalization continues. Other nations see a rise in their standard of living, more peaceful conditons, and we get trading partners more capable of buying our services and goods, as well as we get cheaper products in return, allowing us to keep more of what we make (if we choose to save some), but we also see a reduction in our wages. It's a trade-off, but I don't know how it'll play out in the long run, and I'm not able to say if it's worth it.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 9:30:07 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am not a conservative for most of the reasons you see listed here. I have entertained some libertarian ideals, but alas I do not find that most people could respect each other enough to live the libertarian ideal.

We can't make a TV in this country anymore. Try finding a pair of shoes made here (and if you do find a shoe manufacturer in the USA send me the link, I want to buy from them). American corps farm out as much work as they can, and they were able to do this because the price of fossils for many years was undervalued. It may change now that we have oil prices going up, but it may not change either. What disturbs me about both parties economically speaking is that they do not connect national security with our ability to make durable good right here. It was what made us a strong country and it seems we have lost that ability forever.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/29/2006 9:31:01 AM >

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 9:55:06 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		One can't protect ones economy from the new economic reality of the world, one has to change and adapt. Both France and Germany are trying to protect their manufacturing bases in traditional luxury goods (cars, electrical hardware etc) and their economies are suffering accordingly. Britain who has all but given up on manufacturing traditional luxury goods has an economy in better shape than both France and Germany. Which strategy will fair better in the long term it is impossible to say.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 10:18:51 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have entertained some libertarian ideals, but alas I do not find that most people could respect each other enough to live the libertarian ideal.



Julia, I agree, a lot of folks would have trouble keeping their nose out of others business, but that's what laws are for, or should be, in regards to that.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 10:19:00 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Do you think this global economy is the new reality forever and ever? Capitalist economies require constant growth, stagnation is death. What comes up must come down,... and the fiat currencies of the world are not stable. I hate doomsday scenarios, because like everyone else i want to continue off on my LaLa Land denial mode and stick my head in the sand.... But I have learned just enough to freaking scare the living crap outta me when it comes to global economics. Unless they find alternatives to fossils as a form of energy to move the global economy that one factor alone is enough to do it in... and if you do not believe that do a search to see how much wildcatting is going on these days, how much exploration has led to new oil reserves being found. We do not have the energy to continue growth an expansion.

But there are a lot who will disagree with that logic... and I hope their right because if the global economy collapses many people will starve to death.... and that makes me sick inside to even contemplate.

(Puts on rose colored glasses and heads to the gym.. have a great holiday everyone)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 11:17:22 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Do you think this global economy is the new reality forever and ever? Capitalist economies require constant growth, stagnation is death.


Really?  I just finished a book on the guilds back in medieval Europe and they seem to have managed for a long time with a steady state economy and they were almost pure capitalist as the kings and princes were content to simply stay in the background and collect taxes.Classic lazi faire.

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RE: Question about conservatism - 5/29/2006 11:21:27 AM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
I've been thinking a lot about this.

When did "conservatives" move from being pro-market to being pro-business? Why did they do it? Why is the differance downplayed, even by their rivals?


Flippant answer: Because they're just evil.

Less flippant answer:
I assume you mean government subsidies, tax breaks, favorable treatment toward businesses. In some cases, the flippant answer applies, but that applies to Washington insiders (Democrats and Republicans). If you mean a particular administration, say Bush's, well, he's getting hit from the right by that. Libertarians like Instapundit.com and conservatives like NationalReview.com and American Spectator.com have criticized him (and Congress) pretty heavily for that.

The reason for doing anything favorable toward business is because the policymakers think that by tweaking the free market just a bit, we can all be benefited. When liberals and the left does it, it tends to be to give the government more power. Conservatives and libertarians say that's inefficient, puts us in danger of corruption and potential abuse of power. (Fannie Mae, a semi-governmental agency/semi-business, is about to become a lot more famous for the scandals there -- wait a few weeks or months as it unfolds.)

I guess if you never think that economic benefits will come by tweaking the free market, you're a libertarian or a strong conservative. For the most part, I agree with that.

Keep in mind that not all interventions in the market are just to make more money for everyone -- perhaps most interventions for economic purposes are to help consumers by artificially keeping up competition (discouraging too many mergers, discouraging monopolies), or to prevent fraud (SEC regulations, consumer protection).

I think if we allowed some fraud to go unregulated, the market would create its own consumer watchdogs, but it would take time, might not work well and it's not gonna happen given the way most people think.

Then we interfere in the market for other reasons: censorship to promote traditional morality, environmental regulations, zoning laws, health regulations.

Some things that pro-business types do are because of national competition: favoring our businesses over businesses abroad -- and that usually helps big business.

I've been amazed to find recently how much the federal government (and many state governments) do to try to promote small businesses. It's not the most efficient way to contract for services, but I guess it tries to make up for all the regulations that are harder on small businesses than on big ones. 


Three questions for you, Art:

I guess you're talking about something else though, in your OP, so what anti-market, pro-business things have conservatives been doing?

If conservatives were less pro-business and more pro-market, what would that look like?

Are liberals anti-business? Why?



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