your perspective? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

lovepat -> your perspective? (11/28/2011 9:24:13 PM)

I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts about the way I am thinking of SM. Bear with me here, please... I do make a point, eventually. LOL



I have some theories about SM. Years ago, I read a book called, "Getting the Love You Want," by Harville Hendrix. He is a psychologist who specializes in couples therapy. The Cliff Notes version is this... IMAGO. It's an unconscious image of our ideal partner - not, a fantasy image, but an unconscious one. The difference is that an IMAGO includes the negative character traits in a partner, that we need to find, in addition to the positive ones. Harville says that the stronger the chemistry between partners, the closer they fit our IMAGO.



To discover your IMAGO, you brainstorm in writing. First, fill a page for a few minutes, with the character traits of your caregivers which are positive. If they were male and female parents, then fill the top half with one's traits and the bottom half with the other's. Then, do the same on a second page, with their negative traits. Go back, and circle any traits that are repeated. For example, nurturing, affectionate, accepting... and selfish, judgmental, angry... Out of those, choose the 3 most compelling traits which are negative and the 3 most compelling traits which are positive. These 6 traits are your IMAGO.



If you do the same exercise using lovers you've had as an adult, you should find a pattern. Again, the stronger the sexual attraction, or even intensity, the closer that person is likely to have been to your IMAGO.



Harville concludes that as adults, we enter into relationships to heal childhood wounds, both ours and those of our partners. Not such a revolutionary concept in and of itself, but here's where it gets interesting, to me.



Say, an avoidance personality shares a relationship with one who smothers. The classic, "he won't talk to me" stuff. He tunes her out, she nags. The more he ignores her, the harder she seeks attention... until the divorce. LOL



Harville says that if they love each other, for him to heal her, he is going to stretch himself beyond his comfort zone and turn around and give her attention. Not as a response, but initiate the attention. For her, she has to back off ... not out of rejection or a sense of futility, but rather, to stretch beyond her own need and just give him space.



The result will be that in reaching beyond one's own needs, to heal a loved one, actually heals the self, too. He posits that the ones we are most attracted to, are the ones who will need most from us, that which is hardest for us to give. And that the reason for that is all about healing.



Still with me? So, take that theory to SM relationships.



It would seem to me that masochists are hard-wired, very young, or if later, through traumatic experiences involving violence and maybe sexual assault. To get back to that place of intense vulnerability, the masochist needs a sadist. This time, however, the masochist has new circumstances around the feelings. First, consent. Second, respected limits. Third, union with the sadist - intense bonding during the rising intensity. Fourth, acceptance of the feelings. And, fifth, and perhaps most importantly - aftercare. (and is aftercare what is most difficult for the sadist to give?)



Conversely, the sadist, is perhaps motivated to find control and to exert an effect that has visible (and audible) results. The sadist is given permission to do what society tells them they are not allowed to do. (given consent) The sadist respects another human's limits (which if they identified with an out of control abuser because the power felt attractive and safe, then they get to take the actions, without any need for shame - essentially, the sadist also consents to giving the other person control over setting the limits). Third, the bonding is the same for the sadist who enters into this energy exchange. Fourth, the sadist's urge to hurt another person is accepted and welcomed. Fifth, in giving aftercare, the sadist is confirmed as a caring and responsible person. This is where there is no longer a dual personality in the sadist... but instead, with each scene, and integration.



Now, I'm assuming that the sadist is NOT an abuser, but rather, a provider of intense experience. An abuser would lack consent, and lack regard for the humanity of the recipient of the violence.



Yes, there are many who do not seek to heal and many who are completely unaware of the psychological potential of sadists as healers.



It does make me wonder, if once healed, do the games continue? But, I have heard a lot so far about how in SM, people can reach a peak and need to move on to someone more, or less, intense. Will you please write to me with your thoughts?

lovepat



Lockit -> RE: your perspective? (11/28/2011 10:06:53 PM)

What a tight little box we must fit ourselves into. What a shame. Thankfully, some do not feel the need for boxes, magical prayers or fitting a theory. Don't worry, I thought Freud full of shit as well.



Whenready -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 12:20:56 AM)

It would seem to me that masochists are hard-wired, very young, or if later, through traumatic experiences involving violence and maybe sexual assault.

For me, this is where it all falls apart. Now, it might be true of some sadists, but not the ones I know. Next you'll be telling me that the reason I like using a flogger is because I had my hand slapped in primary 3.... I think not.



stellauk -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 12:28:02 AM)

Thank you for sharing this. I'm so happy it works for you. Really.

But you know for all the reading I disagree with the criteria for criminal sadism being the lack of consent. Consent or lack of it doesn't make an act of sadism a crime, but the effect does. Ted Bundy had no problems getting consent. What made what he did a crime was his habit of leaving behind dead bodies.

You see when someone reveals to me that they're a sadist I just accept it as part of who they are, without needing to go into the whys and wherefores. I don't need to find reasons why they are sadists, don't feel the need to lie awake at night wondering whether they're broken, abused, I just accept that it's part of who they are, it's their thing, and what makes them happy.

This is the whole thing about theories. Freud made some excellent points, so did Jung, Einstein, Marx, and so many others, but theories are just opinions and suggestions towards understanding something.. nothing more.

There's always more than one way of looking at something. We all make assumptions and judgments about things and people - this isn't the problem. The problem begins when we start giving those assumptions and judgments weight and justification, and this is generally where we start to misunderstand and lose the plot.

Which is why I'm happy to take people at face value, believe what they tell me about them, and generally make stuff up as I go along.

But I'm not you, therefore please take from this whatever you wish.



DarkSteven -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 3:00:46 AM)

I don't need to do any of that, and I know it wouldn't work in my case.

My father's a lot like me, but more intelligent.  He's unemotional but responsive to the needs of those around him, with a good sense of humor.

My mother was weird.  She was compassionate for others abstractly but not even aware of the needs of others about her, being very self-fixated.  She had no desire to control others or be controlled by them, choosing to live in her own world and act as she pleased. 

They never should have gotten married.  I once hear my father say he married my mother because she "had nice legs".  My mother was inexperienced at dating and Dad was one of the only men to express interest in her, so she acquiesced.

My parents were incompatible as hell and only stayed together for 20some years because divorce was a very poor option back then.

I DO have a bad habit of being attracted to women like my mother but then common sense kicks in and I run like hell.





lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:01:01 AM)

Hi Lockit,

Thanks for responding. I agree with you about Freud - drug-addicted, woman-hating, looney!

As for tight little boxes? I request a dialog, an open exchange of ideas. I read a theory, as I learn more about SM, it appears to apply. I'm just a seeker of understanding and a great lover of freedom. No boxes intended. Nothing to cause upset... I didn't think?

lovepat



lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:24:23 AM)

Hi stellauk,

Perhaps I need to work on my writing skills... I am a seeker of knowledge. I am deeply curious about the SM lifestyle and relationship. From what I have learned so far, I am saying that it appears that sadists are healers. There is a lot of vanilla prejudice against them...one that I do not share.

I really don't understand what you refer to when you say that Bundy didn't have trouble getting consent. Consent to torture people to death? If anyone agreed to that, then the sane person is supposed to recognize that person's incompetence and resultant, inability to offer consent.

An abuser and a sadist may both apply a whip to another person's body. The difference IS consent... on that I am not unsure.

It's not a matter of people being broken or damaged or such... it's a matter of matching needs and a very empowering result in their interaction. Again, I'm not saying SM participants are mental patients... I am saying that something very powerful and important is going on between them. Also, I am not referring to those who are simply playing superficially at kink scenes... I am talking about power exchange in a deep relationship.

Having said all of that, I am known to be a deep thinker and "face value" holds little interest for me... but, that's me. I question everything and I value your response, perhaps all the more, BECAUSE it differs from my own perspective. Otherwise, I could just talk to myself. You know?

So, thanks.

lovepat



lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:29:52 AM)

Hi Whenready,

Well, in that scenario, nothing intense enough exists to hard-wire you to be either a sadist, or a masochist.

There's a story about a baby who rolls off a sofa while being changed, who bangs its head on a coffee table before landing on a red carpeted floor. Years later, an adult abhors the color red and the smell of diaper wipes, but does not know why. These things happen. It makes no sense because there is no memory, but the memory is formed with an intense emotion (in that case, pain).

I do not know why each person comes to be who they are and I am not saying that I do. My post is meant to elicit discussion to increase understanding.

Thanks for your response.

lovepat



lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:33:06 AM)

Hi DarkSteven,

If it's not broken... why fix it? LOL May your running legs carry you as far as you need!

All the Best,
lovepat



Rule -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:45:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovepat
I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts about the way I am thinking of SM. Bear with me here, please... I do make a point, eventually.

Indeed, it is a long post. The double or triple blank lines do not invite reading either - so I did not read it.

As for SM I have little to say about it. Yes, bad experiences can warp a person's mind.

More likely, though, it seems to me, is whether someone was born without or (naturally) at a later age lost the faculty of having a conscience. Also whether he or she was born with a predatory nature.




caelestis -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:46:04 AM)

So... where do the masochists who aren't "hard-wired, very young, or if later, through traumatic experiences involving violence and maybe sexual assault." fit into this?

Because I never had any of that.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 4:47:59 AM)

I had a knee-jerk reaction to this, but rather than post it, I wandered off to think about it. I've got a tendency to overthink and this is one heck of an overthinkable topic. Haha
Nnot saying I agree with it, but I can see why it would be attractive to some people. Not everyone decides to seek therapy or some sort of "repair" through their relationships, but sometimes it happens out of the blue. Some people DO seel out those situations, though.
For some people, like IrishMist (her posts are always interesting :p), the pain is a reminder that she's alive or a stop-valve to keep her from acting out in some negative way towards other people.
For other people it's all tied up in their sexual experience.
Some people do use things, like rape roleplay, to replace a bad memory with a good one.

I have an attraction to big scary dudes who want to hurt me because it gets them off. :p I suppose this theory could be applied to say that I'm seeking out "controlled" situations of vulnerability (I'm not the skinniest chick on the block, but when you're 5' tall, not trained in martial arts or constantly armed, nearly anyone male at least has a physical advantage - says nothing about wits though); maybe to deal with incidents in my past, blah blah blah.
When I was young, I was violent towards people (mostly dudes) who I found threatening - so maybe, according to this theory, I do what I do because I readdress something that happened against my will, but onn my terms - but by submitting to the terms of someone I like, and with someone whom I can't fight back? I can resist but I will fail, becaus e of power. Haha

WHO KNOWS?!

I totally admit to being a relentless overthinker at times, but here... I'm just not sure it matters. :p
What I like is fun, and that's reason enough for me. I'm analytic of myself and my actions and frankly, I just don't feel like a broken creature trying desperately to stitch myself back together, which is the way the theory comes across to me - that everything we do is somehow motivated by wounds and terrible secrets. Hey, maybe so - but I'm happy how I am. Well-adjusted. Honest about my faults, but aware that I'm a worthwhile person.

I don't know that I believe that something MUST have such a drastic effect on me, and all future actions revolve around that. I have no way of knowinng who I would be without the things that happened, but I'm not sure there's much point in wondering about it.



lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 5:06:13 AM)

Hi Caelestis,

Just kink... just doing what is interesting, fun and feels good.

I was NOT saying that everyone is experiencing any one thing, but rather, that the more extreme, intense participants, may be doing something uniquely profound. Again, this is not meant to disparage anyone.

We, the BDSM community, are aware that we are not mainstream (vanilla). So, why then, the surprise, that something different or noteworthy may be going on? Like other rare things in nature, perhaps BDSM has rare power, whether it be like a rainbow or a hurricane? No judgment in it... it just IS.

All the Best,
lovepat



lovepat -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 5:24:30 AM)

Hi Rule,

See, that's what I am getting at and most people, so far, don't seem to share my perspective.

Sadists are NOT abusers. Sadists are one half of a coin, neither better, nor worse, than the other side of the coin - masochists. Masochists are NOT victims.

I do not agree that there is anything wrong with either of those ways of being. I think it may be the result of some intense experience, but that is not a value judgment. My tone is pragmatic.

A lack of consent makes a person an abuser or the victim of abuse, but that is NOT what is going on between sadists and masochists. They are engaging in an intense, consensual, power exchange. There is trust involved. There is respect. It's not abuse.

So, the idea that just because someone feels pleasure in causing another person pain reflects a lack of conscience does not make sense to me. A sadist gives a masochist pain... and the masochist experiences pleasure from this experience. They agree. They match. They match in a very specific way, or set of ways.

A sadist has to be responsible for self-control in the midst of some very powerful feelings.

Abusers lack conscience... they just do whatever, with no regard for the effect or welfare of their victim.

I am saying that sadists, while having a reputation of being bad-assed, actually carry more responsibility for being connected, perceptive and controlled. Ultimately, they are powerful healers.

Maybe some people prefer not to think about it, but I am not asking anyone who isn't interested to engage their minds at all.

Just my thoughts... as I seek to learn more.

Thank you for your perspective.

lovepat



sheisreeds -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 5:39:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovepat
We, the BDSM community, are aware that we are not mainstream (vanilla). So, why then, the surprise, that something different or noteworthy may be going on? Like other rare things in nature, perhaps BDSM has rare power, whether it be like a rainbow or a hurricane? No judgment in it... it just IS.


This is where your whole idea goes bunk. It is powerful for me, not for a lot of other people. I also know some intense players who do some intensely shallow shit. I know a lot of non-kinky folks who have extremely powerful relationships.

It is important that YOU feel this way, it means you are likely in the right place. Though this line of thought applies to YOU.

On trauma and kink: there is indication in the psychotherapy world that there is a disproportionate number of trauma survivors into BDSM. Enough so that some awareness of kink issues is now being taught in PTSD trainings. Though this is still a fraction of the total of those into kink. It is still only a fraction of trauma survivors that are kinky.

Also, for many trauma survivors the trauma has to be carefully dealt with in kink or it reinforces negative self beliefs and issues. Some awesome healing can occur, but it requires the same basic human awesome as any other relationship.

Also, I have trauma, but I was into pain before the trauma. Also, I have to approach kinky masochism from a completely different place, or I re-invoke my incredible powers of self-destruction.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 5:43:06 AM)

You're kind of touching on something I was thinking about last night and rambled about on Fetlife. :p the attitude that masochists are just "there" or not an active part of the equation. While I'm quite obviously an obnoxious fangirl of some of the personalities here, sometimes it all seems imbalanced because the person who consents, either by saying "yeah, sure" or by just not leaving, is just as vital. Being on the receiving end isn't a "nil" position, it's an intense and real position, too. Complicated to submit to things you hate for someone you love, or to admit that maybe... in some perverse way, you do like it. :p

For whatever reason, you consciously enter in to such a situation. You're not inert, you are just as active.

I agree, there's a lot of responsibility on the operator, to make sound decisions ad stay in some degree of control. But there's also responsibility, for either, to just PICK WELL before you start. Haha



SimplyMichael -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 5:44:19 AM)

I disagree that we enter relationships to heal ourselves but I do think that sometimes that occurs. I certainly agree that negative traits play a larger role in who we choose as partners than most want to believe. Becoming self aware can speed up the process but it never becomes easy to see without the filters we have grown up with. Sometimes it isnt the person or that relationship that causes the growth but the pain of its loss.



KnightofMists -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 6:11:12 AM)

So the basis of the theory is we are all broken?

Mmmm not a theory I find all too applicable. But going to have to read up on it.



Arienos -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 6:27:04 AM)

quote:

I agree, there's a lot of responsibility on the operator, to make sound decisions ad stay in some degree of control. But there's also responsibility, for either, to just PICK WELL before you start. Haha


I so agree, the ultimate responsibility is indeed charged to the one differing. That responsibility cannot be influenced by chemistry, passion, desire, desperateness or self-indulgence even though they all are contributing factors eventually.

Certainly a hard cock or dripping pussy can momentarily influence our decision making but reality deals a swift and devastating blow.



Arienos -> RE: your perspective? (11/29/2011 6:43:14 AM)

quote:

So the basis of the theory is we are all broken?


Broken may not be the right word, the maturation process is unending, the content of the man or woman irrespective of dominance or submission is the product of an unending self-imposed refining so it is there is never a time we cannot make better who we are.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875