RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/29/2006 5:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc

For your consideration:  In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it -- who has the least to lose if it breaks up. 


This is not control in the positive sense.... this is one using Threat and Manipulation in ending the relationship to get what one wants.... hardly a positive and constructive relationship.  Be the person Dominant or submissive... using a person's desperation for relationship or fear of abandoment doesn't make a person worthy of anyone's attention.  This is an example of coercive power to gain control of another person.  This type of power is something more akin to tyrants.

quote:


And, too often, desperate Doms scurry about & do anything to get a sub, & will indiscriminately take on any sub that'll give them a nod.  To me, it's pretty obvious the sub is in control of such relationships.


Be they Dominants or Submissives, anyone that has the simple ability to walk away in the relationship over another does indeed have the ability to use coercive power over their partner and have control.  Such a person that will use such a power style is using a very negative approach and not conducive to a healthy relationship.



ADomDoc -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/29/2006 5:50:14 PM)

quote:

This is not control in the positive sense.... this is one using Threat and Manipulation

Be they Dominants or Submissives, anyone that has the simple ability to walk away in the relationship over another does indeed have the ability to use coercive power over their partner and have control.  Such a person that will use such a power style is using a very negative approach and not conducive to a healthy relationship.

Lots of interesting agreements & disagreements.

But to select one: KnightofMists seems to think this is a manipulation that is brandished on a daily, threatening basis.  Au contraire!  I am merely mentioning the psychological capability -- the inner steel -- to make the choice of moving on.  No threats, no manipulation, no coercion ... no financial aspects are mentioned ... and none of the above were even mentioned in my initial statement.  Just the ability to make oneself independent again. 

If the Dom (or the sub) can't move on ... is so co-dependant to prevent him/her from striking out on his/her own (even if s/he wanted to) ... then that person is under the ultimate control (I am NOT saying dominance, not talking about manipulation) of the partner. 

And it's obvious that there are lots of desperate self-proclaimed Doms in the online BdSm community.  Abusive husbands don't cut wives off from relatives, friends & income for no reason ... they are insecure in the knowledge that the abused spouse will take off if in a heartbeat if they had the wherewithall. 



KnightofMists -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/29/2006 6:06:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc

quote:

This is not control in the positive sense.... this is one using Threat and Manipulation

Be they Dominants or Submissives, anyone that has the simple ability to walk away in the relationship over another does indeed have the ability to use coercive power over their partner and have control.  Such a person that will use such a power style is using a very negative approach and not conducive to a healthy relationship.

Lots of interesting agreements & disagreements.

But to select one: KnightofMists seems to think this is a manipulation that is brandished on a daily, threatening basis.  Au contraire!  I am merely mentioning the psychological capability -- the inner steel -- to make the choice of moving on.  No threats, no manipulation, no coercion ... no financial aspects are mentioned ... and none of the above were even mentioned in my initial statement.  Just the ability to make oneself independent again. 

If the Dom (or the sub) can't move on ... is so co-dependant to prevent him/her from striking out on his/her own (even if s/he wanted to) ... then that person is under the ultimate control (I am NOT saying dominance, not talking about manipulation) of the partner. 

And it's obvious that there are lots of desperate self-proclaimed Doms in the online BdSm community.  Abusive husbands don't cut wives off from relatives, friends & income for no reason ... they are insecure in the knowledge that the abused spouse will take off if in a heartbeat if they had the wherewithall. 



control to exist must be execised... if you control is based on the ability of one to walk away from the relationship over the ability of the other... then the threat and manipulation to use this Power must exist for control to exist.

If one doesn't threaten or manipulate the use of this Coercive Power then there is no control.  It maybe a tool in the tool box... but unless it's taken out ... it sits uselessly in the box.

editted to add some secondary thoughts...

I never implied that it is brandished on a daily or threatening basis... or even made that implication.  I have only stated that to have it is to use it... the frequency is an irrelevant factor... once could be enough to maintain control or possible a hundred times a day is required.

I suggest you learn the difference between Co-dependency and Inter-Dependency... they are significantly different.  Because a Dom or Sub can't move doesn't equate to Co-Dependency... it may ... but that is not a universal fact.

Lastly, Independence is not a statement of Dominance any more that Dependency is a statement of Submission.



ownedgirlie -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/29/2006 6:46:29 PM)

~Fast Reply~

The OP implied that the submissive is in charge because she can leave any time.  To me that wreaks of manipulation, even if such manipulation is not outwardly exercised.   That suggestion in no way applies to Master and I, either.  He is completely in charge.  Nor is there ever even speculation between us that I would leave. Between he and I it is quite simple.  I obey, and I get to keep my station with him. That is our dynamic.  He wants a slave who serves.  I need to serve him.  But for that to work for us, he is in charge...always.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/30/2006 7:24:21 AM)

Ahhh this old argument.

Having a veto power to end the relationship does not make the person in control OF the relationship.

Everyone has that veto power, so no one has control over it.

And frankly, if someone is ACTUALLY worried about this as more than an intellectual exercise, they need to do some work on the relationship itself.

That being said- yes plenty of subs are in control and manipulate their doms so that they don't realize it.  It's just true. 



piscess -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/30/2006 8:19:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

quote:

In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it


I agree.


Then aren't they both in control?
 
piscess



ownedgirlie -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/30/2006 8:45:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piscess

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

quote:

In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it


I agree.


Then aren't they both in control?

piscess


I see it as the person who walks away is in control of ending it.  NOT in control of the dynamics within the relationship itself or what direction it takes (other than the other party ending it) . 



lisa1978 -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/30/2006 8:49:46 AM)

I have enjoyed this topic quite a bit and thought about it a lot when not on the computer.

Upon further thought, to me the question of the person in control of the relationship is the one easiest to walk away from is more of discussion about having a healthy relationship or a toxic one. If one person is controlling a relationship directly or subconsciously or one person is being controlled by being scared the other will walk away, then you are talking about a relationship in trouble anyway.

In a D/s relationship I think this can just be magnified. There are tons of topics on this site about unhealthy relationships and insecure dominants that try to make their subs or slaves weak to them like not allowing them to work, hand over all their posessions and things like that. This is clearly people trying to control the relationship by making it tougher for the other to leave than thenselves and most of us would agree that is a very unhealthy relationship.

I guess what I am trying to state, if you are in a healthy relationship, fear or lack of fear in this area should not come in play and control in the relationship comes down to other factors based on what two people want, if a D/s relationship or the natural personalities and dynamics of two people.



KnightofMists -> RE: The Dom ain't always in charge (5/30/2006 8:58:02 AM)

well said lisa.... I think you appreciate this issue very well.



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