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Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 10:16:12 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		This two part topic is also inspired by posts from a Fet group.
(I like to see different perspectives, so sue me. :p)

In the Fet Owners & property group, there are two interesting discussions --

1) Vulnerabilities --
Have you ever used your /s's vulnerabilities/fears/insecurities as a tool to "train" them, or get a particular response? One example -- playing on the girl/boy's fear of failure in order to prompt better performance?
One poster mentioned that this sort of thing was only really useful if the task really was something his boy could accomplish if he applied himself, and this was a means that worked if positive reinforcement wasn't working.

Do you think it's useful to center your /s's self-esteem on performance for you?

Have you ever played on fears/insecurities to break down a boundary?
Do you see tactics like this as being unethical?

Some /s folks felt that the ethics didn't matter so much as the fact that it worked to "better enslave them." Thoughts?


2) Secrets --
Have you ever told someone else something that your /s told you as a secret? If so, was it intentional or accidental?
Do you think it's harmful to a sense of safety or openness if you can and will repeat secrets or embarassing information?

I suppose it's a matter of trust, or picking someone with a similar sense of privacy.
Have there been things that you thought were "no big deal," but that your /s took VERY personally?

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 10:38:28 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Yes to all of the above. It's helped me to grow as his slave and to help me get over some of my problems. He uses my vulnerabilities and insecurities all the time. I don't see anything unethical about it because I am his property, he owns me and it's his right to do so.

And yes I tell him secrets all the time that others have told me. I feel that if I'm in a relationship with someone then that means I trust them with every fibre of my being, that includes secrets. If I couldn't tell my partner everything then I would not be with him.



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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 10:57:44 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

1) Vulnerabilities --
Have you ever used your /s's vulnerabilities/fears/insecurities as a tool to "train" them, or get a particular response?
Do you think it's useful to center your /s's self-esteem on performance for you?
Have you ever played on fears/insecurities to break down a boundary?
Do you see tactics like this as being unethical?
Some /s folks felt that the ethics didn't matter so much as the fact that it worked to "better enslave them." Thoughts?


Yes, I think it is unethical and the folks that felt it didn't matter don't seem concerned in the least with any psychological damage that could potentially happen.

It falls under the "umbrella" of dominants believing they have the qualifications to act as psychologist/therapist.  There is a "face your fear" type of therapeutic approach, but for a dominant, it is really playing with fire and hoping to get a good result when they really haven't a clue.

Of course there are some fears/insecurities/vulnerabilities that are small and possible to be worked on as a couple, but for the most part, a dominant really ought to be damn careful and realize their own limitations regarding their qualifications to play with issues they may not fully understand.

quote:


2) Secrets --
Have you ever told someone else something that your /s told you as a secret? If so, was it intentional or accidental? Do you think it's harmful to a sense of safety or openness if you can and will repeat secrets or embarassing information?


Couples share secrets, that's a given.  But regardless of whether it is the sub telling the dom or the dom telling the sub some "secret," they shouldn't be sharing it with others.  I think littlewonder misunderstood what you were asking.  I mean if your friend tells you something, most times sharing it with your partner is pretty much a given (and even that depends on what the friend told you), but it isn't that third party's secret to tell to others and it very much is a violation of trust.

quote:


Have there been things that you thought were "no big deal," but that your /s took VERY personally?


I think there are often times that this happens between people.  How we each see something is as an individual.  One look at angel's "Engagement Ring" thread will show that.  Some women would take how that ring is chosen very personally, and many guys really don't see it as that big a deal (in the sense they aren't horribly insulted if she wants to exchange the ring).  As people, we all need to respect that we view things differently (to a point), and as a couple, when one person takes something very personally that the other thinks is no big deal, it is time for a conversation so each can understand the other's point of view.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:07:53 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		ok so responding back about the secrets part...I have no idea if Master has told others about things I have said. It wouldn't matter to me if he did or didn't though since I don't have any secrets. My life is an open book. There's nothing secret in my life. If he did tell someone a secret of mine though if I had one that would be his right. I'm his slave.

Do I tell others his secrets? No. That's not my right to do so and if I did so I'm sure it would be the end of our relationship.

Like I've said before...the rules he has for me are not the same rules for him. We're not equals and I knew that going into the relationship.



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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:12:17 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Well let me ask you this, if your daughter told you something in confidence that you shared with him, do you still believe it is his right to share that confidence with others?  It isn't your secret, it isn't his secret, but it is natural for partners to share with each other what others tell.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:14:10 AM   
LordNMasterGrey


Posts: 42
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline 		I have, but in a sense everyone has, D/S or vanilla.. It's not a matter of taking the role of a professional without proper training and certification, as its human interaction in relationships. Couples who are involved with one another will always use emotion ploys or responses towards the other for some aspect of gain. I think the D/S lifestyle takes the same direction, just on a different path.

When it comes to the "secrets" aspect, I have never shared and never will. 

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~Fear is the secret desire to explore something we know nothing about~

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:16:54 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		my daughter's secrets are not my 'secrets' so I doubt he would share that with others. There are things she hides from her boyfriend because she's afraid it would cause problems in their relationships. I personally think it's stupid thinking and she's worried over nothing but she's an equal to Master so he would not share that secret with anyone. She is not his slave.



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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:33:36 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Very good point.  I wasn't looking at it from that perspective, but more from the intentional (and harmful) aspect of pushing someone's fears for their own gain that is detrimental.

But you are right, there is always some manipulation, even if it is unconscious between people.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 12:13:51 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		There are some risks associated with #1 I imagine, but I don't think it always has to be bad. Obviously, it doesn't always have to be good, though. :p

I was a heck of a lot more self conscious in my last relationship, and him tinkering with my insecurities and vulnerabilities helped a lot of that go away. He was a really good artist, and would draw these pictures of me in all kinds of crazy bondage, and have them around his house. He didn't really care if his friends came over and saw them, but I was embarrassed because I thought they would get a negative impression of me. He thought that was "cute," but he didn't stop doing it. It was his house after all. haha

And a lot of my self-esteem was wrapped up in him; he was my primary focus. I didn't think of that as negative.

Sometimes he would say I was "smarter than that" if I wasn't doing something to the best of my ability.

I can see how it could border on abusing someone, if you belittle them for every little thing and set them up for failure. One of the users I paraphrased above made that distinction.

Anyway, I'm just interested to know how other people see these things.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 12:20:56 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Master has a closed mouth.
It's part of trust.
Grins
When it comes to secrets, I like to hear em and know em but I don't share em.

And yeah, I play on her insecurities. I get deep in her head, sometimes it's to fuck around, sometimes it's curiosity, sometimes it's instructional in nature, and sometimes I'm gonna force her to grow.


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 7:39:37 PM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		1.) My Master uses positive reinforcement with me, because that is what works the best and how he prefers to do things. The desire to please him is more than strong enough to motivate me for anything for him. He doesn't use my insecurities to train me or get something from me--he and I both know this would do much more harm than good, and that's just not his style anyways. My Master does not want to damage me. He knows that I trust him, and "bullying" me into doing something by using my vulnerabilities/insecurities I've trusted him with is cruel and unnecessary--if he wants something from me, all he need do is say it. Others may see this issue differently, because everyone has different "triggers" that are unhealthy for them, but this is one of them for me. Pushing me to overcome my fears is one thing, and I am ok with that as long as he is careful (and I trust he will not push too hard,) but toiling with my self-consciousness in order to manipulate me would not turn out well at all.

2.) It's understood that any secrets either of us tells the other will be kept fully confidential. Entrusting everything I have and think to him means trusting he will treat that properly. To us, that means neither of us has the right to disclose secrets we've shared with each other to outsiders. It's just basic trust and respect.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 7:42:51 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		We don't do mind fucks, and that's what this stuff is. Beyond that, it's dangerous to act like a trained therapist when you aren't. Just as he wouldn't remove my hypertension meds, as it could cause me irreparable harm he also wouldn't fuck around with my mental health for the same reason.

Secrets, well it would depend what they were and why I wasn't sharing. If I was seriously ill and hiding it from my kids, he might well decide they needed to know so they could say goodbye. Anything other than that, I can't imagine him doing. Or who he might tell. But I really don't have any secrets to hide.

Oh, and he wouldn't tell one of them what I was getting them for Christmas because that would be just plain mean - to them. And that's unacceptable.


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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 8:15:02 PM   
SuzeQ


Posts: 253
Joined: 10/16/2011
From: Under her wing
Status: offline 		1. No, we don't train them, they want to do things for us so don't need to be trained or tricked or coerced into things. Hannah is of the opinion that vulnerabilities, fears, and insecurities are things to be worked on and overcome, not exploited and manipulated.

2. No, of course not, that would be lower than low.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 8:38:41 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		  No.  Vulnerabilities represent aspects which require extra care.  I don't need to hook into such things - to the contrary, I tend to view them as aspects of the past which retard the growth of the sub.  It's my job to influence the sub into eliminating them.  Her growth is my responsibility - and stagnation is not an option.

My approach to secrets is simple.  I shut up about them as much as humanly possible.  The only time I slip is when I forget what is a secret.  Obviously, some secrets implicitly require this, due to their very nature.  Others can appear much more benign and slip into the gradual flotsam of information we accumulate about individuals and I forget they're not publicly known.

Basically discretion is important to me.  I practice it, and I expect it of my intimates.


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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/6/2011 11:30:42 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep



1) Vulnerabilities --
Have you ever used your /s's vulnerabilities/fears/insecurities as a tool to "train" them, or get a particular response?


He absolutely has for a particular response.. not so much for training as I'm pretty well trained (and mostly housebroken except for small oppsies on occasion due to some medical issues). When I am at my most vulnerable, he knows that's when it is easiest to crush me into dust. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't want to do that but not completely 100% sure so it's a kick for me as well. We both really adore playing with terror and fear though. Not so much for the training because that's not the motivation behind it .. it's a fun factor for sure though.

quote:

Do you think it's useful to center your /s's self-esteem on performance for you?


I'm not quite getting this question. Self-esteem comes from self. He doesn't center it.. I do and it's healthy enough to make do.


quote:

Have you ever played on fears/insecurities to break down a boundary?


Not that I can recall but I don't have a lot of boundaries. He does.. but that's a different topic.

quote:

Do you see tactics like this as being unethical?


No.. we're on the same page with it so it's not unethical.

quote:

Some /s folks felt that the ethics didn't matter so much as the fact that it worked to "better enslave them." Thoughts?


I don't think of enslavement as something which is quantifiable.. You either are or you're not.


quote:

2) Secrets --
Have you ever told someone else something that your /s told you as a secret? If so, was it intentional or accidental?


I'm his sounding board.. when he speaks to most others, it's talking shop and I can't imagine he would share 'secrets'. I'm too boring and most of the people I know are pretty boring as well. Any secrets to be had would probably be equally as boring to him. He dislikes gossip though so it seems the point, for him, is moot. It's just not something he would even think about doing much less do.

quote:

Do you think it's harmful to a sense of safety or openness if you can and will repeat secrets or embarassing information?


Personally, I am very specific to tell people that I share anything with Michael that he wishes to know and they should 'not' tell me things that can't be shared with him. I trust him not to share but they may not. The do, however, trust me and know that my trust is not won easily so the fact that I do trust Michael is usually good enough for my friends and family.

quote:

I suppose it's a matter of trust, or picking someone with a similar sense of privacy.
Have there been things that you thought were "no big deal," but that your /s took VERY personally?


Unless it's a matter of life and death, most things are 'no big deal' to Himself.. I'm sorta the same way. Mostly calm unless it involves football or politics where I do have my moments on occasion.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Two parts -- - 12/7/2011 4:16:45 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		Most of the answers have gone a totally different direction than the other group, so that's interesting. :) thanks for the replies so far.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: Two parts -- - 12/7/2011 7:18:52 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Have I ever played on fears or told secrets....yes. Have I done it in the intention of helping someone...yes. Have I ever done it in the intention of doing harm(have to be very honest here)...yes. Have either always worked out as I wanted them to...no. But I am human and do my best to do more good than harm.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/7/2011 7:23:32 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for being honest, MIP. ^_^

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: Two parts -- - 12/7/2011 9:06:16 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Most of the answers have gone a totally different direction than the other group, so that's interesting. :) thanks for the replies so far.


I have an account over on FL, but I don't really go there, have never even looked at their forums.  Wait, that isn't true, I looked a couple of times for local events.

Anyway, it seems that FL forum posters are the type that consider themselves "hardcore" and probably spend a lot of time over at Slave Farm as well.

Anyone who honestly thinks that it doesn't matter what you do as long as it serves the purpose to "better enslave" someone needs psychological help in my opinion.

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RE: Two parts -- - 12/7/2011 9:53:22 AM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline 		Whats the point to better enslave someone? What happens if the D/M kicks the bucket the next day?

Where does that leave the s?

_____________________________

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The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


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