Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 9:11:30 AM)

David Sirota at Salon:

Are evangelicals a national security threat?

quote:

If you have the stomach to listen to enough right-wing talk radio, or troll enough right-wing websites, you inevitably come upon fear-mongering about the Unassimilated Muslim. Essentially, this caricature suggests that Muslims in America are more loyal to their religion than to the United States, that such allegedly traitorous loyalties prove that Muslims refuse to assimilate into our nation and that Muslims are therefore a national security threat.

Earlier this year, a Gallup poll illustrated just how apocryphal this story really is. It found that Muslim Americans are one of the most — if not the single most — loyal religious group to the United States. Now, comes the flip side from the Pew Research Center’s stunning findings about other religious groups in America (emphasis mine):

quote:

American Christians are more likely than their Western European counterparts to think of themselves first in terms of their religion rather than their nationality; 46 percent of Christians in the U.S. see themselves primarily as Christians and the same number consider themselves Americans first. In contrast, majorities of Christians in France (90 percent), Germany (70 percent), Britain (63 percent) and Spain (53 percent) identify primarily with their nationality rather than their religion. Among Christians in the U.S., white evangelicals are especially inclined to identify first with their faith; 70 percent in this group see themselves first as Christians rather than as Americans, while 22 percent say they are primarily American.


If, as Islamophobes argue, refusing to assimilate is defined as expressing loyalty to a religion before loyalty to country, then this data suggests it is evangelical Christians who are very resistant to assimilation. And yet, few would cite these findings to argue that Christians pose a serious threat to America’s national security. Why the double standard?

Because Christianity is seen as the dominant culture in America — indeed, Christianity and America are often portrayed as being nearly synonymous, meaning expressing loyalty to the former is seen as the equivalent to expressing loyalty to the latter. In this view, there is no such thing as separation between the Christian church and the American state — and every other culture and religion is expected to assimilate to Christianity. To do otherwise is ... to be accused of being disloyal to America and therefore a national security threat...

...if our politics and culture are going to continue to make extrapolative judgments about citizens’ patriotic loyalties based on their religious affiliations, then such judgments should at least be universal — and not so obviously selective or brazenly xenophobic.

Disclaimer: I am, and have been for most of my life, a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I am not, and never have been, an Evangelical Protestant, because I believe much of their dogma is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, but on the inventions of the minds of their leaders and theologians. I agree with much of what Mr. Sirota has written here.

Your comments?




tazzygirl -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 9:19:28 AM)

Thats a sad and sobering article.




Owner59 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 10:09:25 AM)

Yes.


This endtimes weirdness and their hope that it happens and happens soon is creepy.




tazzygirl -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 10:20:31 AM)

For all the talk of "America is the greatest country" for all the times we heard "MY country" ...

Its a shame many of those people didnt mean it.




popeye1250 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 10:38:51 AM)

I've heard of "evangelicals" before but I didn't realize that they had any connection to "Protestants", don't protestants have their own churches? Would they have to "leave" to become an evangelical?
But, I suppose maybe there's evangelical catholics mixed in there as well?




BanthaSamantha -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 1:41:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I've heard of "evangelicals" before but I didn't realize that they had any connection to "Protestants", don't protestants have their own churches? Would they have to "leave" to become an evangelical?
But, I suppose maybe there's evangelical catholics mixed in there as well?


It is a semantic point, but it is worth clearing up. The term "Evangelical" is simply a shortened form of "Evangelical Protestant." Such is meant to put them in contrast with Mainline Protestants. Both groups are Protestant.




popeye1250 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 2:18:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I've heard of "evangelicals" before but I didn't realize that they had any connection to "Protestants", don't protestants have their own churches? Would they have to "leave" to become an evangelical?
But, I suppose maybe there's evangelical catholics mixed in there as well?


It is a semantic point, but it is worth clearing up. The term "Evangelical" is simply a shortened form of "Evangelical Protestant." Such is meant to put them in contrast with Mainline Protestants. Both groups are Protestant.



So then, they'd have to resign from the mainline churches, presbytarians, methodists, lutherins, episcopal to then join the "evangelical Protestants?"
And if they do leave their churches are they shunned if they want to return to them?
And are there Jews, Catholics, and Hindus in the Evangelicals? Are they allowed or does one have to be protestant to be allowed into the evangelicals?
And how can you be an "evangelical" and a protestant? I just can't see a bunch of evangelicals being asked to perform for the congregation at a Lutherin church.




hlen5 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 2:55:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I've heard of "evangelicals" before but I didn't realize that they had any connection to "Protestants", don't protestants have their own churches? Would they have to "leave" to become an evangelical?
But, I suppose maybe there's evangelical catholics mixed in there as well?


It is a semantic point, but it is worth clearing up. The term "Evangelical" is simply a shortened form of "Evangelical Protestant." Such is meant to put them in contrast with Mainline Protestants. Both groups are Protestant.



So then, they'd have to resign from the mainline churches, presbytarians, methodists, lutherins, episcopal to then join the "evangelical Protestants?"
And if they do leave their churches are they shunned if they want to return to them?
And are there Jews, Catholics, and Hindus in the Evangelicals? Are they allowed or does one have to be protestant to be allowed into the evangelicals?
And how can you be an "evangelical" and a protestant? I just can't see a bunch of evangelicals being asked to perform for the congregation at a Lutherin church.


Evangalizing is trying to convert others to your particular faith. Regardles of which Protestant you are, there is probably an evangelical wing of your faith.




BanthaSamantha -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 3:56:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


So then, they'd have to resign from the mainline churches, presbytarians, methodists, lutherins, episcopal to then join the "evangelical Protestants?"
And if they do leave their churches are they shunned if they want to return to them?
And are there Jews, Catholics, and Hindus in the Evangelicals? Are they allowed or does one have to be protestant to be allowed into the evangelicals?
And how can you be an "evangelical" and a protestant? I just can't see a bunch of evangelicals being asked to perform for the congregation at a Lutherin church.


You have a lot of questions about the interreligious workings of different Christian denominations, so why not just fire up Google and get answers? There's really no point derailing the thread further regarding the minutae of this off-topic issue.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:17:00 PM)

FR

Big difference between thinking of loyalty to a denomination of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) first and the US second vs other groups. The country was founded on principles consistent with their beliefs, so they are really doing both at the same time to a large extent, not so much other groups. (In fact the similarity between loyalty to Christian principles and the US are so similar that the responses themselves might be skewed. The survey is also being taken at a time when distrust/dislike of government is at an all time high, and as Obama said, they will cling to their bibles).




Owner59 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:26:20 PM)

Bullshit....

The question is clear.

Does one pledge their allegiance to the United States or does one pledge their allegiance to a particular religious sect.




SternSkipper -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:34:29 PM)

quote:


Big difference between thinking of loyalty to a denomination of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) first and the US second vs other groups. The country was founded on principles consistent with their beliefs, so they are really doing both at the same time to a large extent, not so much other groups. (In fact the similarity between loyalty to Christian principles and the US are so similar that the responses themselves might be skewed. The survey is also being taken at a time when distrust/dislike of government is at an all time high, and as Obama said, they will cling to their bibles).


Did you think of this one on the shitter while squeezing out a biggie?
Reason I ask is this it so fucking inept your eyes are brown.
This country may have been founded upon christian principles, but NOT with an eye toward Armageddon. Unless of course all the stuff about the Masons turns out to be true.





popeye1250 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:40:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Big difference between thinking of loyalty to a denomination of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) first and the US second vs other groups. The country was founded on principles consistent with their beliefs, so they are really doing both at the same time to a large extent, not so much other groups. (In fact the similarity between loyalty to Christian principles and the US are so similar that the responses themselves might be skewed. The survey is also being taken at a time when distrust/dislike of government is at an all time high, and as Obama said, they will cling to their bibles).



I think president pantload said; "they cling onto their guns and bibles."
Skipper, is that close?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:40:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


Big difference between thinking of loyalty to a denomination of Christianity (or Judaism for that matter) first and the US second vs other groups. The country was founded on principles consistent with their beliefs, so they are really doing both at the same time to a large extent, not so much other groups. (In fact the similarity between loyalty to Christian principles and the US are so similar that the responses themselves might be skewed. The survey is also being taken at a time when distrust/dislike of government is at an all time high, and as Obama said, they will cling to their bibles).


Did you think of this one on the shitter while squeezing out a biggie?
Reason I ask is this it so fucking inept your eyes are brown.
This country may have been founded upon christian principles, but NOT with an eye toward Armageddon. Unless of course all the stuff about the Masons turns out to be true.




It isnt the Christians rushing headlong to Armageddon. Not even a good try.




Owner59 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:42:07 PM)

Did eschatology even exist at the founding of the US?




BanthaSamantha -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:42:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Did you think of this one on the shitter while squeezing out a biggie?
Reason I ask is this it so fucking inept your eyes are brown.
This country may have been founded upon christian principles, but NOT with an eye toward Armageddon. Unless of course all the stuff about the Masons turns out to be true.





Really?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Did eschatology even exist at the founding of the US?


You know your Old Testament very well, I see. Well, as well as you know anything.




popeye1250 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:50:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I've heard of "evangelicals" before but I didn't realize that they had any connection to "Protestants", don't protestants have their own churches? Would they have to "leave" to become an evangelical?
But, I suppose maybe there's evangelical catholics mixed in there as well?


It is a semantic point, but it is worth clearing up. The term "Evangelical" is simply a shortened form of "Evangelical Protestant." Such is meant to put them in contrast with Mainline Protestants. Both groups are Protestant.



So then, they'd have to resign from the mainline churches, presbytarians, methodists, lutherins, episcopal to then join the "evangelical Protestants?"
And if they do leave their churches are they shunned if they want to return to them?
And are there Jews, Catholics, and Hindus in the Evangelicals? Are they allowed or does one have to be protestant to be allowed into the evangelicals?
And how can you be an "evangelical" and a protestant? I just can't see a bunch of evangelicals being asked to perform for the congregation at a Lutherin church.


Evangalizing is trying to convert others to your particular faith. Regardles of which Protestant you are, there is probably an evangelical wing of your faith.


Wow, I didn't know that!
So they're trying to steal each other's customers? Do they work undercover? I can just see one of them plotting to grab his neighbor; "that prick "thinks" he's an Anglican but by next week when I lay some boujou on his ass he's going to wake up one morning a full scottish presbytarian!"
"He won't be driving that nice car anymore either!"
"I can hear those highland pipes now!"




Owner59 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 4:51:05 PM)

.
I`m referring to the whackos who want to fry the earth and Israel(you know ,conservative fundies,the subject of the thread) in order to sit beside the throne of Jesus.

Was there a kook-school of thought like that going around at the time of the founding?

I`ll explain it in two year old terms the 1st time next time.




outhere69 -> RE: Are evangelical Protestants a national security threat? (12/8/2011 6:43:48 PM)

Holy shit, pops, you live in North Carolina and you don't know what fundamentalists or Evangelicals are?  Go to wiki and figure it out.

FR for the rest:
What we know as "end times eschatology" like the Left Behind books, was invented by Darby in Britain during the 19th century.  You can find info on it by searching for dispensationalism.
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Wow, I didn't know that!
So they're trying to steal each other's customers? Do they work undercover? I can just see one of them plotting to grab his neighbor; "that prick "thinks" he's an Anglican but by next week when I lay some boujou on his ass he's going to wake up one morning a full scottish presbytarian!"
"He won't be driving that nice car anymore either!"
"I can hear those highland pipes now!"




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