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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 5:43:06 PM   
Sanity


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Right, our soldiers have been smuggling it out in their canteens

Everybody knows that

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Oil.
The rest is posturing.


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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 5:44:15 PM   
AriesHausdorff


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I'm also no US Citizen, so my Opinion might, too, not be applicable.

In the late 70s / early 80's the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq, to enable it to better fight Iran, which, as by-then under newly religious authority, could no longer be influenced by anybody and thus posed a risk in so far as that it very well might have joined forces with the back-then "bad guys" of the USSR.
However, the amount of weapons sold was way more than was technically rquired - you know, better safe than sorry. Some of them were used against the Curds in northern Iraq which , like in Turkey, have a certain desire to have their own state.

"Chemical Ali" would not have been possible without those chemical weapons.

When the Iraq now turned against Kuweit, because it was heavily indebted from the war and mostly by that small neighbour, Saddam thought that the US, as he had fought all the time against Iran as was desireable for the West, wouldn't bother him, but, well, Kuweit was because of it's small size and exposed position always very favourable toward western politics.

Well, that became the first Gulf War. However someone must've realized that Saddam might well be sitting upon enough Sarin and VX gas to nuke kuweit and the othr big ally in the area, Israel.

But imagine the public desaster "Hummm.. The bad guy has WMD's we delivered to him just last decade".
Such doesn't make for good reading.
So, as Iraq had been indeed dabbling in nuclear technology like Iran, it was a first-class excuse, as nukes nobody loves.
That the Iraq was back then far less advanced in it's nuclear program as the Iran is now is something which could be interpreted as that there WERE more pressing reasons to start a full scale war than there are today with Iran.

As the economy was quite on a peak from the Clinton administrations reign was providing the financial buffer thought sufficient to start and finish the war.
Well, that was most likely a miscalculation - a war always takes longer and gets more costly than expected. That's with all public undertakings the same, bridge building, social welfare , warfare... it's always more costly than anybody expected it to be.

As for Iraq and harbouring Terrorists...
Sincerely I doubt that.
Why?

Iraq was a militaristic dictatorship, so it was contradicting the mostly pseudo-religious terrorist-groups people talk about.
Then, it was run by a minority part of the population - Stuff like Al Quaeda however are mostly mass-based phenomenons, or they recruit from the "suppressed masses" - Sincerely, the worst idea Saddam could have had was to hire or support AQ troopers, as he himself would be a prime target for all the years he was supporting the western politics in his war against Iran.
Al Quaeda has a reputation for forgetting only very little, so also from that front it's rather unlikely that there ever was a real cooperation between Iraq and AQ.

The Moral objectives wilbeurdaddy states are surely well-meant. But they are hard to sell when they meet reality. It's always the civilians that suffer in any conflict. Add that the US forces simply didn't had the manpower to ensure the proper control after they won the war ( Old saying goes you need to have three soldiers on every roadcorner for a year at least ), the well meant intentions blew up quite literally. Insufficient forces to protect the supply-train, insuficient forces to monitor and control all neccessary infrastructure ( bridges, power, water )...

"The small people" only see that things go down drastically. Don't expect people that suddenly have no water or power , and that for extended perids of time, to be happy. Yes, it's mostly insurgents doing that kinda damage. But the average joe only knows that such didn't happen before.
So the one who brought change is blamed first.

###

Semi-OT:

By the way:
As I am german I personally think the reasons insufficient to start an actual war, and deem other measures that would run over longer periods of time, more appropiate. Then again, a surgical strike on the Munich Hofbräuhaus in 1938 or earlier would've saved a lot of lives.
Then again, maybe we all would be speaking Russian now. We can't know for sure then. We can only act upon our best intentions, and the future will be our judges.

From my point of view american politics is weird in so far as that the democrats which are called "left wing" are comparable with the german FDP, which is a political party tightly harboured in the middle of the spectrum, whilst the republicans are on the right side of the german CDU, a "right of middle" political party, which rightmost wing is close to the NPD, the "Wannabe-Nazi" party most germans are most unhappy having to admit still exists.

In a way funnier even is Russia: Their "Communists" are right of our rightmost party. And Communists ought to be on the left side of the spectrum.

###

Anyways, as the OP asked for US-based Opinions, no need to answer to those I mention.
I am well aware I might be lacking some informations, and actually do value informations differently than a US-American would.
Like a bomb is a good thing when it helps stopping a war - unless you're an innocent bystander caught in the blast, which would give a seriously different personal opinion.

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 5:54:39 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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That is incorrect, various company's sold the raw materials for the manufacture of chem & bio weapon systems. Not just the USA both the UK & Germany as well as France were up to their necks in it. The Matrix Churchill fiasco proving my point selling Sadaam the barrel for a supergun with the tacit approval of the government at the time.


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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 6:52:29 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

1. Harboring, training and supporting terrorists.


Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda

quote:


2. WMD's


Iraq had no WMDs

quote:


3. Regime change, saving lives and removing an aggressive threat to other Arab nations.
4. Establish a reasonably democratic bulwark in the region


I must have missed these two in the Constitution. Can you show me where this authority is delegated?




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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:33:40 PM   
NewOCDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

1. Harboring, training and supporting terrorists.


Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda

quote:


2. WMD's


Iraq had no WMDs

quote:


3. Regime change, saving lives and removing an aggressive threat to other Arab nations.
4. Establish a reasonably democratic bulwark in the region


I must have missed these two in the Constitution. Can you show me where this authority is delegated?




1. Yes, they did.
2. Yes, they did at one time, and SH did his best to convince the world they still did.
3. You must have missed Congress authorizing it under their powers in the Constitution.

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:37:08 PM   
farglebargle


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1. PROVE IT. ( Because I have a lot of evidence ( as in "Grand Jury" ) to support my claims I'd LOVE to see the links to conservapedia you're going to dig up... )

2. PROVE IT. ( ibid. )

3. Congress only authorized it after the conspiracy by the Bush Gang to deprive Congress of their lawful oversight role, in violation of 18 USC 371. So, which Congress may have authorized the use of force, given that they were defrauded into it, the legality of the act is doubtful. "Fruits of a poisoned tree" and all that...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/10/2011 7:38:55 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:38:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

1. PROVE IT. ( Because I have a lot of evidence ( as in "Grand Jury" ) to support my claims... )

2. PROVE IT. ( ibid. )

3. Congress only authorized it after the intentional conspiracy by the Bush Gang to deprive Congress of their lawful oversight role, in violation of 18 USC 371. So, which Congress may have authorized the use of force, given that they were defrauded into it, the legality of the act is doubtful.


1. Been there done that. You dont have shit except spin.
2. Been there done that. ibid
3. PROVE IT Hint: you cant

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:40:13 PM   
farglebargle


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Is there probable cause to believe that Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumfeld, Powell, et. al. used deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means -- including lies, false pretenses, misrepresentations, deliberate omissions, half-truths, false promises, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth -- to obstruct, impede, or interfere with Congress' lawful government function of overseeing foreign affairs, relating to the invasion of Iraq?


Overt Acts

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:42:16 PM   
farglebargle


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Please limit your responses to ONE ENUMERATED POINT PER MESSAGE. i.e.: If you have an issue with A, B, and C, please post 3 messages, so that the replies for A, B, and C can be kept distinct.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 7:46:01 PM   
farglebargle


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Here's a bonus:

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent…. George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003

So, maybe one or two old shells were dug up, but Bush promised us there were tons of nerve gas....

Bush LIED ABOUT THERE BEING TONS OF NERVE GAS.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 8:48:23 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

Serious question to all you USA chaps. If the Bush administration didn't invade Iraq because of WMD's then what was the real reason. I happen to think they were shitting bullets over the risk of them falling into terrorists hands & hit the panic button. I'm interested in your take not jerking you all off.


Iraq DID have a WMD. It's known as money, a SHITLOAD of money, in US currency. Iraq, a significant producer of black blood, was going to switch to the euro. At just about the same time they would of course dump all those USDs and the USD would have dropped right then in one fell swoop, probably to the depths it has as of today.

If any other oil producing nations would have followed suit, which would be in their best interest, this would have been EXTREMELY detrimental to what was left of our economy at the time.

Sorry I didn't read the rest of this, I responded to your OP to answer the question.

T^T

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/10/2011 9:04:58 PM   
Termyn8or


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Now I've read the rest of this and am glad I don't watch TV.

T^T

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 6:39:20 AM   
AriesHausdorff


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I heard it, too, that economics wold have been a very valid point to be the cause for a assault upon Iraq.
However I am a bit puzzled, as it is said that SH would have switched to the Euro, a currency "brand new" back then, and thus from a financial point of view rather risky I think.

Add that the Iraq's economy wasn't all too well back then already, I am personally doubting this to me more than, like, 25% of the cause to start the Gulf-War No. 2



quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

Serious question to all you USA chaps. If the Bush administration didn't invade Iraq because of WMD's then what was the real reason. I happen to think they were shitting bullets over the risk of them falling into terrorists hands & hit the panic button. I'm interested in your take not jerking you all off.


Iraq DID have a WMD. It's known as money, a SHITLOAD of money, in US currency. Iraq, a significant producer of black blood, was going to switch to the euro. At just about the same time they would of course dump all those USDs and the USD would have dropped right then in one fell swoop, probably to the depths it has as of today.

If any other oil producing nations would have followed suit, which would be in their best interest, this would have been EXTREMELY detrimental to what was left of our economy at the time.

Sorry I didn't read the rest of this, I responded to your OP to answer the question.

T^T


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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 6:45:03 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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OK then here's the dumb question the cost of the war is far higher than the contract value for Haliburton etc so how can a war for economic purposes make sense?

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 6:56:10 AM   
seekerofslut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

OK then here's the dumb question the cost of the war is far higher than the contract value for Haliburton etc so how can a war for economic purposes make sense?


The cost of the war is taxed to the people; the public side. Companies like Halliburton make profit on the private side. It's a great scam if one can get a contract. The contract is paid via taxation. One could conceivably charge $200 for a hammer.


< Message edited by seekerofslut -- 12/11/2011 6:57:44 AM >

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 6:56:21 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

As I understand it Bush's pre election foreign policy could be written on the back of a postage stamp with room for the bill of rights left over. he wanted to focus on domestic & stop the USA acting as global policemen after Clinton's reckless adventurism around the globe.


You understand it wrong.

Yes, he claimed that in his campaign but then appointed people like Wolfowitz, and several others, who had written position papers for years for the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation advocating an Iraq invasion for regime change.

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 6:58:50 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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I thought the Neocons had been part of his advisors for a year prior to the election.

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 7:27:28 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekerofslut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

OK then here's the dumb question the cost of the war is far higher than the contract value for Haliburton etc so how can a war for economic purposes make sense?


The cost of the war is taxed to the people; the public side. Companies like Halliburton make profit on the private side. It's a great scam if one can get a contract. The contract is paid via taxation. One could conceivably charge $200 for a hammer.



DES MOINES — Sandy Crawford waves a list of military spare parts as her voice rises in anger. For the past year, she says, she`s been told she can`t qualify for federal housing aid because of restrictions imposed by the government`s budget problems.

``Yet here you`ve got a list of parts that cost 92 cents over here at a local hardware store,`` says Crawford, a 32-year-old mother of two whose part- time job is supplemented by welfare, ``and defense contractors charged the government $20,577.61 for them. Look at this: General Dynamics--$9,609 for an allen wrench that cost 30 cents. That would pay my rent for the entire year.`` Actually, the Pentagon says it never paid $9,609 for an allen wrench. General Dynamics, the St. Louis company controlled by the Crown family of Chicago, proposed that the Air Force pay that amount, congressional records say, and the Pentagon rejected the proposal.

``People here are told they can`t get federal funds to clear up flooding problems and keep their basements dry,`` says Brenda LaBlanc, an official in an Iowa community organization, ``and then they go home and read that the Pentagon is paying $6,000 for coffee pots. You don`t have to be too bright to put the two together. We wouldn`t be too upset if they were paying 60 cents for a 30-cent bolt. But let`s keep the corruption within limits.``

Of course, General Dynamics is not the only company ever accused of trying to gouge the Pentagon. In the past few years, there have been numerous reports that the Pentagon paid many other contractors` ludicrous prices, ranging from $400 for a claw hammer to $600 for a toilet seat.

In some cases the stories are true. In some they are only half-true, and focusing criticism on the contractor only deflects blame from the key source of the problem--the Pentagon itself.

General Dynamics, for example, says privately that the price it proposed for the allen wrench was driven up by the Pentagon`s own ``silly system.`` An Air Force official told a congressional hearing that the $9,609 quote included an engineering determination that the wrench had to be modified, and other standard data and drawings were required by the Air Force for a wrench as simple as a screwdriver that is used to adjust the radar on an F-16 jet.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-08-04/news/8502200885_1_general-dynamics-wrench-pentagon-spending

200 would be cheap in comparison

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 7:30:28 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

OK then here's the dumb question the cost of the war is far higher than the contract value for Haliburton etc so how can a war for economic purposes make sense?


The war is, economically speaking, nothing more than a stimulus.  We add to the debt, and at the same time pump money into the US economy and the Iraqi economy.  If you ignore the fact that the debt must someday be dealt with, then the war justified spending that magically appeared.


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Serious question for the citizens of the USA - 12/11/2011 7:31:06 AM   
tazzygirl


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Oh, and the best part of that article deserves its own post...

The Air Force did eventually get its allen wrench. After rejecting General Dynamic`s $9,609 price tag, it made the wrench itself.

And how much did it cost the Air Force to make the wrench? William Strauss, one of the investigators who originally discovered the wrench and is now on the staff of Rep. John Porter (R., Ill.), says the price tag was $105.50. And Marvin Wilson, a spokesman at Wright Patterson Air Force base in Ohio, says that figures ``sounds about right.``

``We bought the drawings from the vendor for $44, and once you factor in the labor for the man who modified it, that figure sounds about right. We can now make the wrench for about 13 cents,`` Wilson says, adding that the Air Force only needed one wrench in the first place.

``I hope we lock the thing in a vault,`` he says.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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