RE: Global Warming: Some good news (Full Version)

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Estring -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (5/29/2006 11:16:50 PM)

The point is, the same problems that we were being warned about (hurricanes, floods, crop failures, etc.) that global cooling would bring, are now being touted as coming with global warming. The problem is, you cannot predict what will happen with the small amount of years that the chicken littles use. Two or three years of warmer weather is not a global warming anymore than a few cooler years were global cooling in the 70's. 




meatcleaver -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (5/30/2006 3:07:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

But the reasons for the U.S. having high rates of per capita greenhouse gas emissions aren't because we're all driving SUVs. My point was that if a country is producing more, then it naturally will have more greenhouse gas emissions. Bigger economies tend to have more pollution, at least in some ways. I really don't think you read too closely, meatcleaver.



DM, you appear to be justifying the large scale greenhouse gas emissions by the USA because it is richer and needs the energy. That is like a fat man telling a starving man he (the fat man) needs more food than the thin man to stay fat or at least that is how China and India see it and Europe sees justice in their argument (That doesn't mean Europe is doing much about it).

The problem has been caused by the first world, it is churlish to expect the third world to lead the way in dealing with the problem. The moral obligation is on the west who caused the problem in the first place. A little more wealth distribution in the world would help stop deforestation and people distroying the world's habitat because they have to think about surviving now, today! A liitle more wealth distribution would also reduce the world's population. The problem is multifaceted and like it or not, borders won't solve the problem but cooperation might.

Clean technologies aren't going to stop deforestation and if deforestation isn't stopped, the problem isn't going to go away.




ArtCatDom -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (5/30/2006 3:44:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Controversial to the people who disagree with him. His conclusions make sense to me and many others (including many scientists), because they match reality no matter how hard you may wish they didn't.


Now I will admit that I believe in some scientific theories that go against the conventional wisdom. I utterly agree that CW is far from infallible.

However, my problem with the Skeptical Environmentalist is that on nearly every point of his surprisingly comprehensive list he takes a sharply differant view from the scientific establishment. This isn't a man publishing a book about the weaknesses of HIV-causation theory of AIDS. This isn't a man publishing a book contradicting the claims of global warming theory. This is a man who is saying the scientific establishment the world over is utterly wrong about every environmental issue within the social consciousness. Somehow, that in and of itself is just hard to swallow.

What makes his work even worse is a number of large inaccuracies and inconsistancies. For example, he claimed that metal resources aren't being depleted supposedly based on price analysis. Anyone who has worked with metal prices over the past several years can tell you metal prices are sharply increasing. Recycled metal is one of the few things that has kept the price as low as it has been and the price of nearly all non-ferrous metals is through the roof even in the recycled metal market.

Finally, and this one is purely prejudicial, I have a hard time trusting academics who can't use basic metaphors and Classics references correctly. He concludes his book calling those he would classify as Chicken Little types "Cassandras". Cassandra was the one nobody listened to but was always correct. Not the reference he wants to use unless it was his intention to deride the contents of his book.

*meow*




babygirl005 -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/6/2006 8:21:13 PM)

 http://denverpost.com/search/ci_3899807    Some more common sense amid all this hysteria.




Estring -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/6/2006 8:27:47 PM)

The post by my slave babygirl005 was actually by me. Lol. I sometimes forget that I am on her profile instead of mine when posting. I don't want anyone accusing me of not taking credit for my own views.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/6/2006 8:36:48 PM)

Lucky man.




FangsNfeet -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/6/2006 9:17:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The good news about global warming is that we'll have to solve the problem, or we'll die.  Necessity is the mother of invention.


Okay, if we are putting to much Carbon Monoxide in the air, let's build giant air filters. We have small ones for houses. I say we upgrade to the size of Big Ben to sit on top of sky scrapers and along side major highways and active volcanoes. If we turely are loosing the Ozone Layer, we should just launch more ozone up there. After all, we know how to make it.

But Knowing is only half the battle. What will it take to start doing it? 




Kedikat -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/7/2006 5:08:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

meatcleaver, the U.S. also produces more than a quarter of the World's gross product. About a quarter of the world's economy happens to be located here.

You should really read the article.



Some of the decrease in US CO2 is due to heavier industry being outsourced overseas. China now suffers the pollution to make what the US buys.
GDP isn't always a good indicator of industrial production. Financial markets and such contribute a lot to GDP without creating real goods or nearly the CO2 that industry does.
I find it sad that so much money is produced from businesses that create no solid products. But manipulate and speculate or lend money. They have their uses, but have become too much of a force. Perversely, negative economic forces can still increase the apparent GDP. An awful lot of debt is considered as wealth in the GDP.




Kedikat -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/7/2006 5:16:07 AM)

Consider that oil, natural gas, coal was created by massive amounts of solar energy being converted to plant and animal matter over millions of years. During those millions of years, the earth balanced itself to be it's temperature with all this energy buried and gone from the loop.
In a few hundred years, we have released all that pent up energy and continue to do so.
It seems obvious to me that it won't be absorbed and smoothed out in a few years.
Global warming is happening. It's effects may actually cause some portions of the world to get colder or wetter etc. But for a fair long time it will generally be warmer and stormier.
The ultimate effects are not a sure thing. But it will result in drastic change. It could at some point create conditions that do result in cooling too much. The system of global weather is complex. A steady addition of anything can cause wild shifts at some point.

I bet if we were just burning up vast amounts of oxygen, faster than it was being produced, there would still be people saying it isn't so, and if so, don't worry......
I am sure there were scholarly officious disbelievers of the bubonic plague, of course the world is flat, Hitler won't invade any more countries, obviously the sun revolves around the earth in spite of those crank scientists. Airplanes will never work. Mt St Helens is dormant. etc,etc.....

Every thing that happens leaves a history of the fools and the farsighted. Depends how long you deny how many facts, which catergory you will be in.




Kedikat -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/7/2006 5:28:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Controversial to the people who disagree with him. His conclusions make sense to me and many others (including many scientists), because they match reality no matter how hard you may wish they didn't.


Now I will admit that I believe in some scientific theories that go against the conventional wisdom. I utterly agree that CW is far from infallible.

However, my problem with the Skeptical Environmentalist is that on nearly every point of his surprisingly comprehensive list he takes a sharply differant view from the scientific establishment. This isn't a man publishing a book about the weaknesses of HIV-causation theory of AIDS. This isn't a man publishing a book contradicting the claims of global warming theory. This is a man who is saying the scientific establishment the world over is utterly wrong about every environmental issue within the social consciousness. Somehow, that in and of itself is just hard to swallow.

What makes his work even worse is a number of large inaccuracies and inconsistancies. For example, he claimed that metal resources aren't being depleted supposedly based on price analysis. Anyone who has worked with metal prices over the past several years can tell you metal prices are sharply increasing. Recycled metal is one of the few things that has kept the price as low as it has been and the price of nearly all non-ferrous metals is through the roof even in the recycled metal market.

Finally, and this one is purely prejudicial, I have a hard time trusting academics who can't use basic metaphors and Classics references correctly. He concludes his book calling those he would classify as Chicken Little types "Cassandras". Cassandra was the one nobody listened to but was always correct. Not the reference he wants to use unless it was his intention to deride the contents of his book.

*meow*


A lot of these kinds of " experts " depend on people not bothering to check on what they say. And not really caring, as long as they can still sell books and articles to the believers. And on both sides of issues, the interest groups money will pay for bad science and slanted facts and statistics. I have to filter out the BS from both sides.




meatcleaver -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (6/7/2006 6:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

The point is, the same problems that we were being warned about (hurricanes, floods, crop failures, etc.) that global cooling would bring, are now being touted as coming with global warming. The problem is, you cannot predict what will happen with the small amount of years that the chicken littles use. Two or three years of warmer weather is not a global warming anymore than a few cooler years were global cooling in the 70's. 


Let's assume the evidence is not convincing and there is room for doubt. (not something I believe) Is it not sensible to play safe for the sake of succeeding generations? Does it not make sense to create renewable energy instead of polluting the air we breath and protect the world from deforestation, the scourge of slag heaps, pollution and expanding deserts? What can be worse than looking your grandchildren in the eye and saying, I guess we sort of knew about it but didn't really believe it was happening?

There is absolutely no reason why economies should be damaged if we use our intelligence rather than give way to our greed and our yearning for an easy life. In fact improving the environment would be a major improvement in our quality of life. If only we could turn our TVs and computers off now and again.




Dtesmoac -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 8:59:20 PM)

Lomborg is a statistician and has not refuted that man is contributing to climate change, his arguments have been that the human impact is less significant than touted by some. He interprets the mathematical data and not the underlying science. Lies, damn lies and statistics. !!! Skeptical Environmentalist - originally printed in 2001, the twelth reprint (2004) continues to not address the global (including main US science forums) concensus on human influence on climate change. Though Bjorn has grudgingly accepted that perhaps some of his analysis is questionable. The key point with science is that it is open to suggestions & possibilities that it does not have all the answers. Bigotry and religous dogmatism only responds with I am right F...Off, hardly reasoned argument! A recent Danish expedition to Greenland found that their modelling estimates of the rate of ice loss were a little wrong. They found that the calculated annual loss could be visibly seen to be lost in one month .... ooops. Of course 1 Danish Statistician and 1 Texan (oil backed President) vs the 175 countries that have ratified the Kyoto Protocol and 177 countries national Scientist Acadamies that agree Kyoto does not go far enough ...... shows a balance of scientific views (Estring - thats sarcasm) .... lol 

5 years ago when I travelled to Industrial sites in the US most managers did not know what climate change was......now at least they have all heard of it and some are actively adressing it.........  USA Corp is changing....... or is it I only work with companies aquired by overseas corporations ????????  




Mercnbeth -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 10:03:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Estring, have you read a single scientific study of global warming?  It doesn't sound like it.


L&M,
That wasn't a requirement for Al Gore's representation .

Actually there were many scientists to choose from that had theories contrary to Mr. Gore:
quote:

Professor Bob Carter of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University, in Australia gives what, for many Canadians, is a surprising assessment: "Gore's circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention."

It seems Mr. Gore did have many scientist agreeing with his theory but very few came from the areas that actually studied global climate. From the same source:
quote:

Carter is one of hundreds of highly qualified non-governmental, non-industry, non-lobby group climate experts who contest the hypothesis that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are causing significant global climate change. "Climate experts" is the operative term here. Why? Because what Gore's "majority of scientists" think is immaterial when only a very small fraction of them actually work in the climate field. http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm


Junk science serves both sides of the argument. The same groups of scientists totted global cooling as Estring pointed out. Time didn't create the science they just decided to report it in a sensational manner. It's an exact corollary to the current global warming pendulum swing.

Statistics & Science: http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Warming_Look.htm

Why no dissent? Scientists are educated government welfare recipients. If you are on the wrong side of the issue you can change your mind or lose your funding.

quote:

So how is it that we don't have more scientists speaking up about this junk science? It's my belief that many scientists have been cowed not merely by money but by fear. An example: Earlier this year, Texas Rep. Joe Barton issued letters to paleoclimatologist Michael Mann and some of his co-authors seeking the details behind a taxpayer-funded analysis that claimed the 1990s were likely the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year in the last millennium. Mr. Barton's concern was based on the fact that the IPCC had singled out Mr. Mann's work as a means to encourage policy makers to take action. And they did so before his work could be replicated and tested--a task made difficult because Mr. Mann, a key IPCC author, had refused to release the details for analysis. The scientific community's defense of Mr. Mann was, nonetheless, immediate and harsh. The president of the National Academy of Sciences--as well as the American Meteorological Society and the American Geophysical Union--formally protested, saying that Rep. Barton's singling out of a scientist's work smacked of intimidation. All of which starkly contrasts to the silence of the scientific community when anti-alarmists were in the crosshairs of then-Sen. Al Gore. In 1992, he ran two congressional hearings during which he tried to bully dissenting scientists, including myself, into changing our views and supporting his climate alarmism. Nor did the scientific community complain when Mr. Gore, as vice president, tried to enlist Ted Koppel in a witch hunt to discredit anti-alarmist scientists--a request that Mr. Koppel deemed publicly inappropriate. And they were mum when subsequent articles and books by Ross Gelbspan libelously labeled scientists who differed with Mr. Gore as stooges of the fossil-fuel industry. http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220






Lordandmaster -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 10:48:00 PM)

Uhhhh, when did I ever say anything about Gore?  I haven't even seen his movie.




RolePlayInTheOC -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 11:11:52 PM)

Fact: the Earth was warmer 1,000 years ago than it is today. This period is known as the Medieval Climate Optimum. For example, there was a permanent colony on Greenland that sustained itself by agriculture, in an area that is now permafrost. Was this caused by those wild-and-crazy Vikings and their SUV's? I think not.

Estimate: CO2 levels during the time of the dinosaurs are estimated to have been three to six times their current level. Did the dinosaurs operate factories? I think not.

Fact: Planetary temperatures soared (and glaciers receded) during the recovery from the last Ice Age. This recovery is believed to have occurred over only a few decades. Was it caused by cavemen building fires? I think not.

The point is that science has only a very rudimentary understanding of what drives weather and climate changes. The best computer models have to be heavily tweaked with parameter "fudging" in order to get them to track just the last couple of decades. None of them is within light years of tracking the recoveries from the Medieval Climate Optimum or the last Ice Age. The "science" behind AGW (anthropogenic global warming) has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. Bottom line #1: whether or not the Earth is actually getting warmer right now (and there is some doubt even about that), there is NO convincing evidence that humans have anything to do with it. Bottom line #2: when they can tell me whether or not it's going to rain tomorrow, I'll start thinking about listening to them concerning temperatures 100 years from now.

What *meatcleaver* calls playing it safe, I call shutting down the Industrial Revolution. If that happens, the carrying capacity of the Earth (human population that can be supported) will fall back to what it was pre-1700, namely a few hundred million. The other 95% will die of famine or plague. Oops! Fortunately, the Chinese aren't having any of this nonsense. (As an aside, I would add that those most concerned about alleged risks of greenhouse gas production are also in the forefront of blocking the most effective means to reduce it: nuclear power.)

Finally, as to why the "science" is so nearly unanimous on this issue, *Mercnbeth* are on the right track. The Romans advised us to ask "Cui bono?" (Who benefits?). There is an unholy alliance among five interest groups, each of which scratches each other's back, and each of which benefits greatly from scaring an ignorant general populace. Michael Crichton identifies three of them in his novel, State of Fear. They are politicians, scientists, the press, regulators, and lawyers. Briefly, politicians get campaign issues and give (indirectly) money (in the form of research grants). Scientists get money and fame, and give politicians credibility and the media interesting stories. The press gets a scary issue with which to frighten readers/viewers into paying attention, and gives publicity to politicians and scientists. Regulators get funding and power from politicians, a rationale from scientists, and publicity from the press, and they give politicians the appearance of efficacy (doing something about it). Lawyers get fodder for litigation, which provides interesting copy for the media. ... I could go on (and on). When there is that much mutual back-scratching going on, it is small wonder that these powerful groups will close ranks to attack anyone who dares to point out that "the Emperor has no clothes."




Lordandmaster -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 11:17:38 PM)

Oh, that's right.  Let's not listen to scientists.  Let's listen to Michael Crichton.

People, Michael Crichton writes science FICTION.  Science is not science fiction.  The word "fiction" is like a hint.




RolePlayInTheOC -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 11:26:28 PM)

Michael Crichton is a Harvard-educated physician. By the way, *Lordandmaster*, it was extremely clever of you to substitute an ad hominem attack for any attempt to confront the substance of my post. Do you think anyone else noticed?




ElectraGlide -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 11:42:45 PM)

Hey I guess we are in global warming since the world was a huge ice cube several million years ago, I think Noah was trying to lay the ground work for us one day in the future.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/3/2006 11:52:54 PM)

Ugh, do I really have to confront your "substance"?

Let's start here.  Your first so-called "fact" is wrong.  We are now warmer than we were in the medieval warm period.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medieval.html

It all goes downhill from there--but since I'm arguing with an ideologue, I'm not going to pretend to try to convince you.  Go on, believe Michael Crichton.  The truth will be beyond dispute in fifty years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RolePlayInTheOC

Michael Crichton is a Harvard-educated physician. By the way, *Lordandmaster*, it was extremely clever of you to substitute an ad hominem attack for any attempt to confront the substance of my post. Do you think anyone else noticed?




philosophy -> RE: Global Warming: Some good news (7/4/2006 1:45:45 AM)

Michael Crichton is telling the truth?

*looks suspiciously around for cloned dinosaurs and more hopefully checks for Catherine zeta jones in a lift*




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