RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/24/2011 8:32:20 PM)

quote:

Mn: now what then would be libertarian socialism?

Actually, true Libertarianism has historically always been "socialist" in nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarism
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/libhe/libhe005.htm




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/24/2011 9:35:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Chomsky is absolutely right in saying that the media isn't biased towards a radical overthrow of the capitalist system.




Giving voice to Krugman, who indeed would welcome a radical (and even violent) overthrow of the capitalist system, certainly makes you wonder about the NY Slimes.




Aswad -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 12:49:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

"Liberal," in his context, bears little relationship to the political divide as it exists in the US today.


Actually, the point is that several right wingers have accused the media outside Fox of carrying a distinctive liberal bias, and that this has been demonstrated not to be the case. What Chomsky points out is often a mix of what he's getting at and a criticism of the politicalization (that can't be the right word?) of language. It is common to coopt terms in a manner that will impart a connotation that allows the debate to be shifted away from the issues, and for facts to be buried. There's often a segment or two about this side of things in his presentations, but he usually covers the actual allegations as well, and I would say the "common" allegation of liberal bias in the media- as the allegation is meant by those making it- has been quite thoroughly debunked.

It would be a lot easier if the right wingers would simply say "we're the far right, and we're happy about that" instead of needing to recenter the spectrum on themselves, with the attendant relabelling of the center as 'far left'. Where I live, it's normative to be slightly left of center, and most of the parties (but not all, mind you) range from slightly left of center to far left. They still don't recenter their world on the left and then go relabelling the center as 'far right'. Not only is it quite inaccurate, but it is also somewhat dangerous in making the nuances less visible in the area between the 'far whatever' and the fringe or extremist elements, both on one's own side and the opposite side. That makes it harder to prevent the truly radical elements that represent only a tiny handful of the population from becoming a factor in politics that not even most of the people on their own side of the center would approve of.

The optimist in me would like to think that anyone is capable of seeing the dangers of creating, supporting a worldview that is polarized in a binary fashion and then shifting the dividing line progressively further toward one side. The whole 'us' vs 'them' thing can get really ugly that way, and a lot of people can get swept up in something nasty that we haven't seen in the west for some 60-70 years now. It's not how I would like to spend the next few decades.

Of course, to an intellectual, the inaccuracy itself is sufficient reason to oppose this semantic shift in the discourse.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Moonhead -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 5:05:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

Mn: now what then would be libertarian socialism?

Actually, true Libertarianism has historically always been "socialist" in nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarism
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/libhe/libhe005.htm

Historically it was, but the left has pretty much abandoned the term "Libertarian" since it was co-opted by people who've read too much Ayn Rand.
(No question that it used to be a generalised blanket term for pretty much any sort of lefty over here, though...)




MrRodgers -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 6:41:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

"Liberal," in his context, bears little relationship to the political divide as it exists in the US today.


The optimist in me would like to think that anyone is capable of seeing the dangers of creating, supporting a worldview that is polarized in a binary fashion and then shifting the dividing line progressively further toward one side. The whole 'us' vs 'them' thing can get really ugly that way, and a lot of people can get swept up in something nasty that we haven't seen in the west for some 60-70 years now. It's not how I would like to spend the next few decades.

Of course, to an intellectual, the inaccuracy itself is sufficient reason to oppose this semantic shift in the discourse.

Health,
al-Aswad.


'semantic shift in the discourse' Orwell would be calling it something else.


Liberal media bias, comedy hour Christmas morning...makes me laugh. If there is such bias...GREAT...keep up the good work media.

You see I am not an optimist at all when it comes to that great free society envisioned by our most un-corrupted historical, political, economic or moral philosophers. Suffice it to say that being a right wing, banker/corporatist/capitalist...I LOVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA BIAS...it has been 'berry berry' good to me.

I am laughing at you all...all of the way to MY bank which has better federal insurance than you so MY bank can't go bankrupt.' Talk about semantics...Orwell would be oh so proud.

I am a billionaire socialist...running to govt. for AFDC (Aid to Federally protected Deposited Currency) AND...soon as I blow YOUR retirement money on wall street out my ass just being typically greedy and corrupt...double dealing one client against another. Too bad if you are on the losing side hey. That damn liberal media bias again.

So you see, the 'liberal media' bias tells you I am a great free-market [sic] risk-taker yet am able to have govt. bail me out and that's just 'cause we STILL have that great FREE market hey ? [sic]

I have a farm getting a FEDERAL check for NOT farming. I produce corn ethanol and get paid TWICE for it, once from you and once from the market. But according to the 'liberal media bias' I am still really that struggling, great risk-taking entrepreneur where America's great 'liberal media bias' has so twisted set [its] values that I pay 15% tax risking my capital, you pay 35% risking your...LIFE. Please media...do NOT change at all and of course, I'll make damn sure...it doesn't.

I can't help it kinkroids but I sit here and laugh at the whole ridiculous debate. Being a typical right-wing or not but an American greedy capitalist scum, (I am not really, ok ?) I've used that supposed, alleged media bias to change the meaning of words almost entirely in my favor...and you have bought it...hook-line and sinker.






xssve -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 7:41:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Chomsky is absolutely right in saying that the media isn't biased towards a radical overthrow of the capitalist system.




Giving voice to Krugman, who indeed would welcome a radical (and even violent) overthrow of the capitalist system, certainly makes you wonder about the NY Slimes.
Can you give me a quote on that, or did you just make that up?

I think we all know it's a rhetorical question BTW.




Aswad -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 10:52:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

'semantic shift in the discourse' Orwell would be calling it something else.


He would... except he's too busy eating my dust... see, I used to live on Animal Farm... then someone shot a lot of piglets and blew up the barn... so now I'm looking back at 1984 and my spectrometer is telling me it's rackin' up some gosh darn impressive redshift... in fact... any minute now... Spock himself is going to come through that door and tell me I've got an appointment with Dentist of Borg and am five minutes early on account of transwarp.

I don't live in the USA or the EU... you worry about finances, my neighbours worry about getting the right kind of butter for their X-mas cookies, and the media makes a big fuss about the "butter crisis"... meanwhile, we're forking over about 20% of the cost of saving the Euro, from our budget surplus, since it's always nice to have the IMF owe you, and it's not often they let you shove a wad of cash up their ass, anyway.

And not fifteen minutes from here, a Christmas gift charity collection is rotting under a tree in the rain from the- what, eighth?- storm this month, out of a usual zero, since some nice folks- not rats, decent folk, just don't understand our way, s'all- decided ta tear it all up, third time this week. Awright, next year the varmint get to learn, the wrong end of a reticle, ain't nothing else gets the message across.

Better go make something hot, case the power goes out. Storm just hit hurricane level further out, so it may nab a line or two, and the mainland is off limits till it quiets down. Good thing they only come once every few hundred years, or eight times in a month in recent times. Would suck to add an actual climate change to that.

Where was I... ah, yes... food.

Health,
al-Aswad.




mnottertail -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 11:35:16 AM)

fattigman, roemegroet, lefsa, krumkakke.......(yeah, I dont have that keyboard handy I lost it when I changed computers al-Aswad).....how can one not think of food? 

Rømmegrøt  there, I copied it from a site.  Ma made hers with rasins.




Aswad -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 3:07:27 PM)

Risengrynsgrøt FTW... cinnamon, no raisins. [:D]

Just what my sore throat ordered.

Well, that and some aspirin, peroxide, antibiotics, surfactant, bronchodilator and so forth. My eyes look like tomatoes with a sprinkling of powdered sugar, quite literally. I can't hear shit on one ear, and the other one is down 30dB or so, with a metallic twanging echo to everything. Tonsils are up to the size of plums and it feels like I am being waterboarded with vanilla sauce. Coughing railroad spikes through my skull isn't helping, but that's mostly when the coughing and cyclic vomiting are simultaneous. Add a generous helping of flu on top of that and we've about got it. Hmm-hmm connected to the huh-huh...

But a bowl of creamy rice gruel will turn my frown upside down.

Got to love traditions.

Health,
al-Aswad.





mnottertail -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/25/2011 3:20:23 PM)

I like it plain, with cinnamon and/or rasins.

The one with rice--- cinnamon or/and/or raisins was called glorified rice in my house.

You can calculate the derivatives of how that got to be if you are bored.

Glaedilig Jule og Bara Bra snart!!!!!! 

(cuz I cant spell in any language)  




Aswad -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/26/2011 1:28:10 PM)

Glorified rice, I like that. Honest touch to it.

Now all we need is some "pinnekjøtt" as the main course. [;)]

It's even Halal, apparently, so the muslims are adopting it as their dish of choice now- integration in practice.

Health,
al-Aswad.




mnottertail -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/26/2011 1:32:35 PM)

They have pinched 60 000  thats the right number 60 000 sheep in England this year, and I can't believe it is due to there being only one Dominatrix in the UK.

So, Sæhrímnir will be cheaper.  Lamb will be going up. 




Aswad -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/27/2011 1:43:42 AM)

Aww, shucks, tasty little buggers playing the financial domination card now?

Health,
al-Aswad.




Musicmystery -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/27/2011 11:59:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Like anyone outside of wonkville knows who Chomsky is......[8|]....lol

You are way off on this one. Chomsky is one of the major figures of our day. He's even credited with "inventing" an entire genre of nonfiction, let alone his political influences.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/29/2011 8:05:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

"Liberal," in his context, bears little relationship to the political divide as it exists in the US today.


Actually, the point is that several right wingers have accused the media outside Fox of carrying a distinctive liberal bias, and that this has been demonstrated not to be the case. What Chomsky points out is often a mix of what he's getting at and a criticism of the politicalization (that can't be the right word?) of language. It is common to coopt terms in a manner that will impart a connotation that allows the debate to be shifted away from the issues, and for facts to be buried. There's often a segment or two about this side of things in his presentations, but he usually covers the actual allegations as well, and I would say the "common" allegation of liberal bias in the media- as the allegation is meant by those making it- has been quite thoroughly debunked.

It would be a lot easier if the right wingers would simply say "we're the far right, and we're happy about that" instead of needing to recenter the spectrum on themselves, with the attendant relabelling of the center as 'far left'. Where I live, it's normative to be slightly left of center, and most of the parties (but not all, mind you) range from slightly left of center to far left. They still don't recenter their world on the left and then go relabelling the center as 'far right'. Not only is it quite inaccurate, but it is also somewhat dangerous in making the nuances less visible in the area between the 'far whatever' and the fringe or extremist elements, both on one's own side and the opposite side. That makes it harder to prevent the truly radical elements that represent only a tiny handful of the population from becoming a factor in politics that not even most of the people on their own side of the center would approve of.

The optimist in me would like to think that anyone is capable of seeing the dangers of creating, supporting a worldview that is polarized in a binary fashion and then shifting the dividing line progressively further toward one side. The whole 'us' vs 'them' thing can get really ugly that way, and a lot of people can get swept up in something nasty that we haven't seen in the west for some 60-70 years now. It's not how I would like to spend the next few decades.

Of course, to an intellectual, the inaccuracy itself is sufficient reason to oppose this semantic shift in the discourse.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Thanks, Aswad (and to Ron as well, for keeping the thread awake while Christmas, and a bit of after Christmas chaos, ran their course).

I make no claims to being an intellectual, but I'll agree wholeheartedly that someone with a further left leaning view could easily see something Orwellian in calling the US Democrat party "liberal." By local standards though, it is.

No matter how far to the extreme edges the thought might drift, the dividing line is right where it should be. There are those whose default solution to any problem is more government involvement, and those, such as myself, who believe that government is both the only way to get some things done, and at the same time, the least efficient way to do anything. More, or less? Conservative, or liberal?

We have a two-party system. I think it sucks, and that we would be better served with a proportional representation system in Congress, but it is what it is. We have a media that leans distinctly towards one side, and that gets labeled accordingly.




Owner59 -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/29/2011 10:29:30 PM)

So in dick-land,even liberals aren`t liberal.[8|]


And how is reporting the news and reality.....bias?




TheHeretic -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/30/2011 6:49:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

So in dick-land,even liberals aren`t liberal.[8|]


And how is reporting the news and reality.....bias?



Careful, O59. The root of your homophobia is showing again. You might have to beat yourself up in an alley...

Which facts are considered important? What news is considered newsworthy? Is that glass of reality half full, or half empty? The worldview and preconceptions of the journalist will color all of these decisions, and when those journalists are predominantly coming from one side of the spectrum, we get reporting with a distinct bias. Simple enough for you?





Sanity -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/30/2011 7:16:00 AM)


For example...

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Careful, O59. The root of your homophobia is showing again. You might have to beat yourself up in an alley...

Which facts are considered important? What news is considered newsworthy? Is that glass of reality half full, or half empty? The worldview and preconceptions of the journalist will color all of these decisions, and when those journalists are predominantly coming from one side of the spectrum, we get reporting with a distinct bias. Simple enough for you?






mnottertail -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/30/2011 7:19:44 AM)

So, real clear politics is reporting with a real clear conservative bias.   OK.




Moonhead -> RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News (12/30/2011 8:17:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
We have a two-party system. I think it sucks, and that we would be better served with a proportional representation system in Congress, but it is what it is.

The real problem is less a lack of independents in Congress and more a lack of any real difference between the two parties in question.




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