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RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 6:44:15 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

1.  My pay check has been higher in 2011 than it was 2010--there was no raise, so obviously my taxes decreased.

2.  Try advocating to a social security recipient how their benefits need to be lowered.  Those people who have no other means of support because they worked low paying jobs their entire lives are obviously living far too high on the hog now.



Well, point number 2 is probably right on the money (so to speak).

In fact, SSI was never intended to be a retirement income, but rather a stipend to assist...an adjunct.

It wasn't originally called Social Security...it was called Supplemental Security...as in....an aid to....a plus to your....etc.

So yeah, you're correct.  If the people you describe planned on SSI covering all their expenses AND haven't lowered their expenses to meet that (if it's their only) income....you're right.  They're living too high on the hog.

(Well said, by the way....couldn't have said it better m'se'f).

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 6:49:16 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

hes got his so he doesnt think about anyone else


Actually, I don't (yet).  My goal currently is keeping my businesses afloat long enough for the economy to turn, and working my tail off to make sure that we can both, never lay anyone off, continue to pay their full medical with no contributions from them whatsoever, and hopefully add some staff in the not too distant future.

However, I'm confident if I work hard and plan for tomorrow....I'm hopeful I can do well enough when it's all over and I'm pushing myself around with a walker and soaking my teeth at night....that I won't have to eat cat food.

And frankly, whether I was as wealthy as Bill Gates or as poor as a church mouse, doesn't change the facts one iota.

SSI is not a retirement fund.  It never was, and anyone who believes (or believed) it ever was....forgot to read the instruction manual.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/23/2011 7:28:20 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 6:50:27 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

There's no "increase" in taxes if they fail to enact an extension....it simply goes back to paying the SSI taxes as enacted decades ago.



Mathematically, this position makes little sense.

The expiration of a temporary tax break has the exact same fiscal impact on a taxpayer as the recission of a permanent tax break. They both result in the exact same increase in net taxes paid.


It most assuredly has the same effect on a persons bottom line but...it most absolutely is not a tax increase.

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:03:21 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Hey, if you want to share the pain, and extend social security taxes to ALL income, and not cap at at an insultingly low level, then let's go for it.

I'll take a little less in the weekly pay envelope for solving the perceived issues with the social welfare programs... Do you think the portfolio managers will go for it?


Absolutely true FB....there's simply no inherent logic in capping SSI contributions at some arbitrary level.

If you earned income...(I believe) you should pay into the system.

Frankly, I don't even understand the logic of paying SSI only on "earned" income, or up to a predetermined amount.

If you pay taxes....whatever the amount you pay taxes on....you should also pay SSI taxes on the same amount.

My income, including all sources, typically exceeds (in most years....not this or last unfortunately) the maximum level at which SSI contributions stop.

That's ridiculous.

Now...for those that want me (or others) to pay more anyway...arbitrarily....maybe just send in a check because I feel it's the right thing to do....

I'll ask you...why don't you?

If you don't make a lot of money....totally understandable...you need every penny to get by.

Guess what happens if someone like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates just decided to toss a few extra million bucks at the feds?

It goes into the general fund...which is like crack cocaine for a street whore.  It gets spent.

(There's actually a mechanism on your IRS form for you to do exactly that.  And....it goes directly into the general fund....not toward paying off the debt...and you won't even get so much as a Christmas card for doing so).

Until there's a balanced budget amendment, forcing these bastards to spend only what we give them....there's no reason for you, or me, or Warren or Bill to send those pricks a dime more than you or I (or Warren or Bill) legally owe.

When such a thing exists....when they actually "get it" and start living within their means....I can almost guarantee you....every wealthy and even semi wealthy person, couple or corporation (they're people too now you know) will happily pay more to get us all back on track.

Until then....every one of us might just as well send them a metal spoon, a rubber hose, a hypodermic needle, a candle and a Bic lighter and tell them to enjoy life as they know it.

(Actually, you don't need to send any of that....they already have all that stuff...you paid for it....so did I....and they don't give a fuck).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/23/2011 7:06:34 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:04:28 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

it most absolutely is not a tax increase.



Ok good, we have your assertion. Now let's hear the arguments supporting your assertion.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:11:45 PM   
Pleasurepleasing


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/18/2011
Status: offline 		Oops

< Message edited by Pleasurepleasing -- 12/23/2011 7:41:37 PM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:13:36 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

it most absolutely is not a tax increase.



Ok good, we have your assertion. Now let's hear the arguments supporting your assertion.


It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.

As you may be aware...a temporary reduction in something (such as a tax) is not an agreement that that is now the new taxable figure, rather...a temporary respite in the aforementioned tax.

If someone drove into your garage with a semi truck....your home would be (temporarily) smaller.

When they repair it....it's hard for me (or for that matter, hopefully, the tax assessor) to imagine anyone feeling as though your home just got larger.

It's really not all that complicated frankly.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/23/2011 7:16:38 PM >

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:14:48 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pleasurepleasing


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

hes got his so he doesnt think about anyone else


Actually, I don't (yet).  My goal currently is keeping my businesses afloat long enough for the economy to turn, and working my tail off to make sure that we can both, never lay anyone off, continue to pay their full medical with no contributions from them whatsoever, and hopefully add some staff in the not too distant future.

However, I'm confident if I work hard and plan for tomorrow....I'm hopeful I can do well enough when it's all over and I'm pushing myself around with a walker and soaking my teeth at night....that I won't have to eat cat food.

And frankly, whether I was as wealthy as Bill gates or as poor as a church mouse, doesn't change the facts one iota.

SSI is not a retirement fund.  It never was, and anyone who believes (or believed) it ever was....forgot to read the instruction manual.


SSI means you cannot work full time as a normal productive citizen. To the extent that any are able to 'contribute' to society, as it were, they are worth it.

To the similar extent that govt. such makes orneriness requirements upon small business and its correspondingly higher tax rate, makes small business America both responsible for and the engine of new growth with a corporate subsidy as its ball and chain.



Interesting.

(in reply to Pleasurepleasing)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:18:36 PM   
BanthaSamantha


Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.

As you may be aware...a reduction in something (such as a tax) is not an agreement that that is now the new taxable figure, rather...a temporary respite in the aforementioned tax.

If someone drove into your garage with a semi truck....your home would be (temporarily) smaller.

When they repair it....it's hard for me (or for that matter, hopefully, the tax assessor) to imagine anyone feeling as though your home just got larger.

It's really not all that complicated frankly.




Never, ever run for office.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:19:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.

As you may be aware...a reduction in something (such as a tax) is not an agreement that that is now the new taxable figure, rather...a temporary respite in the aforementioned tax.

If someone drove into your garage with a semi truck....your home would be (temporarily) smaller.

When they repair it....it's hard for me (or for that matter, hopefully, the tax assessor) to imagine anyone feeling as though your home just got larger.

It's really not all that complicated frankly.




Never, ever run for office.


I actually hadn't planned on it but, thanks for the advice.

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:21:28 PM   
BanthaSamantha


Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


I actually hadn't planned on it but, thanks for the advice.



You did your simple explanation, now allow me to do mine.

When the temporary tax cut was passed, my taxes decreased. When it expires, my taxes will increase.

Done.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:26:03 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


I actually hadn't planned on it but, thanks for the advice.



You did your simple explanation, now allow me to do mine.

When the temporary tax cut was passed, my taxes decreased. When it expires, my taxes will increase.

Done.


The deductions from your personal payroll decreased and/or increased.

The tax rate remained the same as it always was, but for the temporary reduction in the rate.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/23/2011 7:32:35 PM >

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:32:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Frankly, I don't even understand the logic of paying SSI only on "earned" income, or up to a predetermined amount.



Very simple. Benefits are only based on income up to that level (and the formula is frontloaded so there is a wealth transfer from higher to lower paid).

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:34:42 PM   
Pleasurepleasing


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pleasurepleasing


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

hes got his so he doesnt think about anyone else


Actually, I don't (yet).  My goal currently is keeping my businesses afloat long enough for the economy to turn, and working my tail off to make sure that we can both, never lay anyone off, continue to pay their full medical with no contributions from them whatsoever, and hopefully add some staff in the not too distant future.

However, I'm confident if I work hard and plan for tomorrow....I'm hopeful I can do well enough when it's all over and I'm pushing myself around with a walker and soaking my teeth at night....that I won't have to eat cat food.

And frankly, whether I was as wealthy as Bill gates or as poor as a church mouse, doesn't change the facts one iota.

SSI is not a retirement fund.  It never was, and anyone who believes (or believed) it ever was....forgot to read the instruction manual.


SSI means you cannot work full time as a normal productive citizen. To the extent that any are able to 'contribute' to society, as it were, they are worth it.

To the similar extent that govt. such makes orneriness requirements upon small business and its correspondingly higher tax rate, makes small business America both responsible for and the engine of new growth with a corporate subsidy as its ball and chain.



Interesting.


I am and will be always interesting thanks to him. Yes, yes I otherwise understand with his understanding...don't know all that much.

< Message edited by Pleasurepleasing -- 12/23/2011 7:38:38 PM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:35:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.




Ok. How long does it take before a restoration to a prior level becomes an increase? 5 minutes? A year? A year and 2 months? 9 years?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:37:22 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Frankly, I don't even understand the logic of paying SSI only on "earned" income, or up to a predetermined amount.



Very simple. Benefits are only based on income up to that level (and the formula is frontloaded so there is a wealth transfer from higher to lower paid).


Well then, if the fund is indeed underfunded, and as it's been said before "for those with great fortune comes great responsibility", wouldn't it be logical in some measure for those who have done well, to pay somewhat more?

And I think the answer is obvious...."Yes".

Except for one thing:

Those fuckers in DC will spend every dime PLUS 30%.

Before anyone pays more, should pay more or will ever be intrigued by the thought of ever doing so....they need to turn off the spigot and get this (national) financial house under control.

I think the wealthy should pay more....but if they do under the current system....it'll be pissed away at a faster rate than ever before.

It's just more gasoline.

We need a fire extinguisher.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/23/2011 7:42:11 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:38:42 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Frankly, I don't even understand the logic of paying SSI only on "earned" income, or up to a predetermined amount.



Very simple. Benefits are only based on income up to that level (and the formula is frontloaded so there is a wealth transfer from higher to lower paid).


Well then, if the fund is indeed underfunded, and as it's been said before "for those with fortune comes great responsibility", wouldn't it be logical in some measure for those who have done well, to pay somewhat more?

And I think the answer is obvious...."Yes".

Except for one thing:

Those fuckers in DC will spend every dime PLUS 30%.

Before anyone pays more, should pay more or will ever be intrigued by the thought of ever doing so....they need to turn off the spigot and get this (national) financial house under control.

I think the wealthy should pay more....but if they do under the current system....it'll be pissed away at a faster rate than ever before.

It's just more gasoline.

We need a fire extinguisher.



Should they pay more for their gasoline? For their electricity? For their hamburger meat?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:40:19 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.




Ok. How long does it take before a restoration to a prior level becomes an increase? 5 minutes? A year? A year and 2 months? 9 years?

Well, seeing as how cons were calling the proposed expiration of the Bush tax breaks for the rich an increase, I don't see as how you have a leg to stand on.


Expiration of a break for the rich is an increase but the payroll tax for middle income folks going back to its former levels is NOT an increase?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

Got any bridges ya wanna buy? I'm a licensed Real Estate broker.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:41:38 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's fairly simple actually....a tax increase is one wherein which a larger tax than what was previously being assessed is attached to your earnings or income.  A redemption of a previously existing tax that has been lowered and then at some point in the future lapses (as was planned when they lowered a tax for some predefined period) is simply going back to a previously agreed to tax.

It's not an increase....it's a lapse or cancellation if you prefer, of the provided reduction in said tax.




Ok. How long does it take before a restoration to a prior level becomes an increase? 5 minutes? A year? A year and 2 months? 9 years?


That's easy.....has nothing to do with time....when there's a new tax, AND/OR....the current (or pending) tax rate is suddenly at a higher level than the old rate.

If the rate isn't higher than it was previously, by definition, it's not an increase.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Caving on the Payroll tax for 2 months - 12/23/2011 7:45:39 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Frankly, I don't even understand the logic of paying SSI only on "earned" income, or up to a predetermined amount.



Very simple. Benefits are only based on income up to that level (and the formula is frontloaded so there is a wealth transfer from higher to lower paid).


Well then, if the fund is indeed underfunded, and as it's been said before "for those with fortune comes great responsibility", wouldn't it be logical in some measure for those who have done well, to pay somewhat more?

And I think the answer is obvious...."Yes".

Except for one thing:

Those fuckers in DC will spend every dime PLUS 30%.

Before anyone pays more, should pay more or will ever be intrigued by the thought of ever doing so....they need to turn off the spigot and get this (national) financial house under control.

I think the wealthy should pay more....but if they do under the current system....it'll be pissed away at a faster rate than ever before.

It's just more gasoline.

We need a fire extinguisher.



Should they pay more for their gasoline? For their electricity? For their hamburger meat?


They already do in many cases.

If you're wealthy, you're probably not driving a a 97 Chrysler mini van....so your car very likely requires Supreme.

If you're wealthy, you probably don't live in a 1,400 sf rambler on a 15,000 sf lot, and you therefore more than likely heat a somewhat larger residence.

If you're wealthy....you're probably eating steak....or eating out.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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