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Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 8:00:22 PM

leakylee

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Now I post this not as strictly a Gay Rights matter. I am seriously curious how many people would prefer the benefits of a legal union versus the religious entanglements of marriage.

While I myself am a Christian, which does not negate the fact that I truly don't believe that our government has the right to interfere with whom we choose to form a union with. I do believe that I read somewhere that there was supposed to be a separation of church and state.

This being said, it would seem that a legal union is truly more legal, and that the state marriage is more moral. I am by no means attempting to put marriage in a derogatory light. Simply wondering where others might stand on this particular issue, whatever their choice of partner maybe.

please be gentle

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 8:39:02 PM

slaverosebeauty

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Marriage is a legal contract and personally, I take it very seriously. I don't like it when people say 'its just a piece of paper,' that's liek saying the Bill of Rights or the Consititution is 'just a piece of paper' they all have 'power' and are 'legal' because of what is behind them.

I will admit, I voted when it came up some years ago in Cali that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, that doesn't mean that I don't think that my friends who are homo-sexual should not be able to be legally committed to their partners, I just don't think the word 'marriage' should be used. That's me.

This country was founded on 'church' so to try to seperate 'church and state' is hypocritical and self-defeating.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:02:40 PM

petwolf22

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i like the idea of legal unions for everyone, regardless of gender and renewable by year.

i ended up in a common law marriage, not intentionally and i think it's bull that if we were to separate we have to go through the same procedure as a typical "marriage." If one or the other partner is so worried about protecting assets and having spousal rights there should be a discussion between the two and an agreement between the two for a civil union. And renewable each year (or whenever) so that if two decide to discontinue the legal union, they are allowed to, with the understanding of what the consequences are. Maybe having a 30-day period for renewal so that if one person does not want to continue the relationship, then the civil union is dissolved by means of a "divorce" proceeding. But the main point is allowing the two to decide on the union. If my fiance and i ever split i have no problems with splitting what we've got but i see no reason to be forced into having the gvt. involved if we don't have to.

Marriage is a religious concept...i'm not religious and frankly resent the government trying to tell me and my s.o. what we are.

Heterosexuals should be allowed to be legally committed to each other without getting married, if you want to keep marriage separate fine but allow civil unions for everyone.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:11:15 PM

Arpig

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quote:

This country was founded on 'church' so to try to seperate 'church and state' is hypocritical and self-defeating.

I am afraid you are sadly misinformed on this point, as the seperation of church and state was one of the basic principles guiding those who framed the constitution....your country was specifically NOT founded on church.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:17:16 PM

juliaoceania

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Marriage is not a religious institution. All cultures have marriage, and not all of them consider it to be a religious institution. That is why in our culture you can get married by a captain or by a judge.

On Edit: I think that it is perfectly acceptable to have marriage between same sex partners. They pay their taxes as I do, why shouldnt they get married? They have the right to express their union in the same ways I have the right to express mine. I do not see marriage as a moral thing, I see it as a contract between two people, and I think that Christians that think marriage is a moral institution need to look outside their own culture to understand what it really is. I see this "union" bit as a way of separating people based on some moralirty system that should not exist... we have no right to negate others relationships by saying "Well you are not Christian and marriage is only for Christians because it is a 'moral' institution". I guess muslims, atheists. Jews, and all other belief systems could not get "married" under that view.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/29/2006 9:25:38 PM >

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:28:38 PM

FangsNfeet

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For some people, they only perfer to be religiously married versus a legaly bind for various reasons. It's still possible to have a church wedding under God and not have a government wedding license. What's more important? Being married under the eyes of your god or being under a legal union by your government?

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:28:45 PM

slaverosebeauty

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You can have a non-demoninational or non religious marriage ceremony, its not that hard. You can get married by a JOP and NO religion is invovled. In Cali, you have anyone preform your wedding ceremony, your bestfriend can do it as long as they get sworn in for the day, its kinda cool that way; I know you can do that same thing in other states as well. Marriage IS a legal union, you sign a 'marriage license' aka a 'contract'. That makes it a 'legal' document.

Am I the only one who studied {paied attention} government in high school? I got the governor's award on the GSE, I didn't miss a single question and this stuff came up, well part of it; marriage is a legal union.

This country was founded for a lot of reasons, one being 'religious freedom.' Besides, we cannot fully seperate church and state if so, the legal system and all our money would have to be scrapped. {money says 'in God we trust' and when you are on the witness state they say 'so help you God' etc.... } I don't know about you, but this country has more important things to do with money we don't have than to scrap our currency system and legal system because some people don't like 'church' being around; if you don't like it, then don't use money or use any legal services, all of that has 'church' involved or at least the word 'God' in it somewhere.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:30:41 PM

leakylee

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I was not attempting to down play marriage by any means. I truly do believe that it is one of the most powerful and strongest acts of commitent that any two people can share. My intention was more along the lines of what Petwolf22 was mentioning. (sorry I have't figured out the quote thing yet) That it be a legal recourse not quite as binding for any couple without the religious overtones, and be available for any couple.

I guess the reason I mention the religious overtones Juliaoceania is because in our current politcal climate that is a factor that is being so strongly stressed.

love and light
lee

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:36:45 PM

petwolf22

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that's more of what i meant to say...."marriage" in today's society has a lot of religious undertones and many people see it as a religious kind of contract. my dad got remarried, for instance, and was married at a courthouse but to them it still was a contract before God, they were just trying to avoid the major expenses and complications of a church wedding.

If marriage had no religious underscoring, why would it matter then whether or not it was between a man and a woman or a man/man or woman/woman?

Sorry for the mistyping on my part.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:48:07 PM

leakylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

You can have a non-demoninational or non religious marriage ceremony, its not that hard. You can get married by a JOP and NO religion is invovled. In Cali, you have anyone preform your wedding ceremony, your bestfriend can do it as long as they get sworn in for the day, its kinda cool that way; I know you can do that same thing in other states as well. Marriage IS a legal union, you sign a 'marriage license' aka a 'contract'. That makes it a 'legal' document.

You are right. In its form. A marriage lience is a legal contract, but it is something that is only available to only a part of the nation. I have never been to a nonreligous ceremony. Thank you I didnt know that was even possible..hehe.. The Southern Baptist still rule pretty heavy in Florida..

love and light
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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:49:10 PM

leakylee

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Well I almost got it to work..

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 9:50:24 PM

Archer

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Well while people around the world live in unions that are both religious and non religious in nature, they are called marriage only because the translation to english lacks specificity. However even then in almost every culture around the world it is their holyman, shaman, witch doctor, priest, that performs the ritual that binds people together. Looking at the world population you have Christianity, Islam, Judeaism, Hinduism. four of the five largest religions in which marriage is controled by and large as a religious rite.

I do advocate the state getting out of the marriage bussiness, issue a civil union license and leave the where by whom and what they call their ritual to the churches, circles, covens, temples, people involved.
If a church does not want to marry couples that are same sex then they don't have to. However some churches may wish to do so and that is their business.
They should be seperate the legal construct and the religious union. Thus the government and the church are kept seperate.

Archer

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:18:53 PM

juliaoceania

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I was not attacking you... I was saying that marriage is not a moral or religious insitution, and if it were it would not be done at court houses. It is a legal contract mostly in the interest of children that might be born into it. That is what marriage is for in societies. Now I know gays cannot have biological families together, but they are adopting, they are having artifical insemination, and surrogate pregnancies to have children... sometimes they have kids from previous relationships that their life partner helps rear. They deserve to have families as much as anyone else... and since the nuclear family is the basis of our society people should be allowed to configure them the way they like. Just my opinion.

I have no interest in how the religious right interprets marriage as a religious institution.. they are just wrong headed on so many levels and this is just another one...smiles

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:23:28 PM

petwolf22

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if marriage is not a moral or religious institution, then there should be no reason why consenting adults of either gender shouldn't be able to be married.

The powers that be must consider marriage to at least have some kind of religious affiliation, otherwise the whole gay marriage thing would be a nonissue. Aren't religiously based arguments most of the reasons people argue against gay marriage in the first place (i'm thinking of that whole "adam and eve/adam and steve" thing for example)?

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:43:24 PM

SweetDommes

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People using religiously based arguments doesn't mean that they are right to do so.

However, the Adam/Eve vs Adam/Steve argument is not the only one they use. They also claim (among other things) that allowing same sex marriages will destroy the moral fiber of our country, however, countries where same sex marriages are legal have shown no such decline. ... then again, these are some of the same people who claim that teaching safe sex practices in schools will make kids more likely to have sex and that it will raise STD transmission rates and teen pregnancies, even though looking at places where sex education is actually useful shows that STD transmission rates and teen pregnancy rates are lowered significantly - but that's a topic for another thread and another time.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:46:29 PM

leakylee

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Juliaoceania, sorry if it read a bit sensitive. I didnt mean for it too. And you are right about the family issue for the children. They so deserve a strong nuclear family, reguardless of it's make up. Be it pink, or purple or green with red poka dots.

Archer, me thinks you maybe on to something. The federal goverment might just need to butt out overall. Of course, I am in doubts that this will happen any time soon, but one can wish.

Petwolf, you are right. It seems to boil down to the proper morality issue of the moment, or that is the way that it apears at the present time.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:51:13 PM

HarryVanWinkle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

This country was founded on 'church' so to try to seperate 'church and state' is hypocritical and self-defeating.

I am afraid you are sadly misinformed on this point, as the seperation of church and state was one of the basic principles guiding those who framed the constitution....your country was specifically NOT founded on church.

I beg to differ. This country was founded over 180 years before the Constitution was enacted and was definitely founded on "church."

That being said, I also disagree with slaverosebeauty. When church and state are inseperable, you have theocracy, among the most brutal forms of tyranny ever tried.

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:54:25 PM

Lordandmaster

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What country are you talking about? The United States of America was founded in 1789.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

I beg to differ. This country was founded over 180 years before the Constitution was enacted and was definitely founded on "church."

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 10:55:21 PM

petwolf22

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Even if that's true, that the country was founded on "church", how is the separation of church and state hypocritical and self-defeating? Nations change and develop over time...the US can and has as well.

< Message edited by petwolf22 -- 5/29/2006 11:06:40 PM >

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RE: Legal union/versus Marriage - 5/29/2006 11:03:20 PM

leakylee

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The colonies may have been founded to escape religious persecution, but they were still under the rule of England. And only tolerated what they allowed. So in someways morality stills rules the day.

lee

< Message edited by leakylee -- 5/29/2006 11:06:42 PM >

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