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Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 7:05:24 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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I'm reading a book called the tenth circle by jodi picoult (only half way thru but well worth reading so far). It's about a couple whos daughter is raped but off the central plot it looks at the relationship between the parents. The father for want of better words was a wild child and the mother was very straight laced when they met. When the mother became pregnant the father changed and became the model husband and father.

What really made me think was:-
'What if love wasn't the act of finding what you were missing but the give-and-take that made you both match?'
'Laura could shift the blame any old way she liked, but the stiff wind of truth would send it back to her : She hadn't ruined daniels life by asking him to change. She had runied her own.'

I tend to agree with the 1st quote in that there has to be give-and-take in any relationship nilla or d/s. The second quote however raises questions for me. I hear all the time how if you try to change someone a relationship cannot work. You cannot change a persons base personality.

Part of my base personality is cheek and stubborness and the amount of Dom's i have spoken to who have said they could 'punish' those traits out of me is amazing!

Wasn't part of what attracted them to me these things?
If i lose these traits would i become the perfect sub?
Wouldn't a perfect sub be boring?
Would i be me anymore?
How do you keep a balance of give-and-take and not just end up giving all the time or vice versa?
How healthy is a relationship where the sub seems to give up everything to please her Master/ Mistress and the Master/Mistress sometimes appears to give up nothing?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

Post #: 1

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 7:12:30 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Lots of doms and subs ADORE the concept of "taming the beast within."

I enjoy primal play as PLAY, but in my relationships, I want everyone to be a mature and polite adult.

I really don't understand why so many subs feel it's impossible to be BOTH a spirited wild free fun person AND quiet, polite, elegant, and mannerful?

Or why they think being quiet, polite, elegant, and mannerful is somehow boring and means someone lacks spirit or is stupid? I know we're taught that we should be passive and somehow we fight against this- but really I find it tiring and playing into the system just as much as being passive because someone told you it's what you should do.

As to when you become you and when you become not you- that's up for you to decide. And your answer will change over time as you become MORE you and NEW you.

I keep balance simply by being myself- a person who can fuck randomly with abandon AND make sex into the most divine connecting spiritual experience ever. A person who can both be demure and sweet and soft AND steel hard and wickedly intelligent.

There's no need to fight against yourself, there's no need to choose one or the other, and there's no need to be bratty/cheeky to prove that you're smart and fun and active.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 2

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 7:36:04 AM

Ceyx

Posts: 89
Joined: 8/23/2005
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Wow, that's a lot of questions.

First of all, in my opinion, there's no such thing as the 'perfect sub.' A girl might be perfect for me, but that's a personal judgement and it isn't going to hold in any other relationship. I happen to think that Halcyone is perfect, but I concede that the traits that make her so valuable to me might not be attractive to another dominant. So any quest to become the perfect submissive is, I think, hopeless right out of the gate.

Second, I believe that any relationship that's unfulfilling for the submissive/slave isn't a good relationship. Yes, we all talk a good game about total power exchange, absolute surrender, selfless devotion and service. But in those relationships in which these things are required-- and they aren't always, or even most of the time-- then the slave must be pleased and fulfilled by the very act of devotion in order for things to work out. It must resonate with the slave; it must be what he or she has wanted out of life. I'll leave it to wiser heads to figure out whether this sense of fulfillment makes the slave's service less absolute or his/her devotion less selfless. Servitude enforced without the initial choice and loving participation of the servant isn't a pleasant experience, and history is full of this sort of slavery. Most of it isn't at all sexy.

There are certainly dominants who enjoy 'brattiness' in a submissive. If cheek is part of your core personality, then I'd say that you need to find someone who can enjoy and channel cheek; you shouldn't douse it in an attempt to become a 'proper' submissive (whatever that means). I do like and practice training of a sort, but I strongly doubt that anyone's natural tendencies can be 'punished' out of them; they might be repressed, breeding frustration, but they won't disappear. Training in an M/s relationship should be about realizing a slave's potential, not crushing his or her personality.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 3

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 7:44:38 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I really don't understand why so many subs feel it's impossible to be BOTH a spirited wild free fun person AND quiet, polite, elegant, and mannerful?

Or why they think being quiet, polite, elegant, and mannerful is somehow boring and means someone lacks spirit or is stupid?

Great points.

I wonder sometimes, when I see so many say "I am me and he should want me as I am and not want to change me".....maybe it's not so much someone changing you as it is someone guiding you to your own improvement? Are we so set on being who we are, that we are not open to evaluating what has been pointed out to us about ourselves? Are we not open to changing at all? For me, life is a constant change. If I am not always striving for better, if I am not constantly trying to grow and improve myself, then don't I remain stagnant? This does not mean I am unhappy with who I am today - I am quite happy with myself. However, if for example, I receive advice about communicating in such a way that I am better understood, why would I want to ignore that?

Does everyone with a "wild child" attitude bring that attitude to work with them? How does it work out for them to do that? Or do they temper that, because "time and place" is everything?

You are right - who says you can't be both? Then again, time & place is everything - I can be fiesty and playful with my Master, and trust me - when I go out with friends, I am quite spirited. But when my Master wants a quiet girl at his feet, then I give him that. Same as if he wants to experience the lust in me, or to toy with the beast within...If he says I am communicating in a way he finds obnoxious, I'm going to look at that. Why? Because I trust his opinion. That's why I begged his ownership in the first place.

As to the give and take part. I give him all he wants of me. I get the world back in return. I don't need to look for it. They ways in which my life has improved since surrenduring to him has been quite the gift.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 4

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 8:18:36 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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With respect i never said being quiet, polite etc was in any way boring. I actually meant that once a Dom has trained the traits from a sub he does not like will it not become boring to just have a sub who does and says what he wants 100% of the time?

I do not fight against myself, i have accepted who i am and what i am and although yes i am willing to try to curb some of my traits for a Master i cannot remove them completely. I find it interesting that you refer to my comments of being cheeky and stubborn as bratty/ cheeky. I would say i am far from bratty and do find that slightly judgemental.

Basically what i am trying to say is that the base of our personality cannot be changed, it will always be there even if only under the surface.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 5

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 8:30:37 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Dom has trained the traits from a sub he does not like will it not become boring to just have a sub who does and says what he wants 100% of the time?

Only if the doms kink is training (and training IS a kink for many doms).

Trust me, I have my partner trained perfectly in a few ways now. I'm not bored by it at all! I'm thrilled that it's pretty much set and solid and that we worked it all through.

quote:

I would say i am far from bratty and do find that slightly judgemental.

And I'm guessing you consider being judgemental to be bad? Isn't that being judgemental?

For me, being judgemental is good and necessary as a functioning mature adult.

quote:

Basically what i am trying to say is that the base of our personality cannot be changed, it will always be there even if only under the surface.

Ahhh that's very different from what I got from your initial post.

Which is really too bad because there ARE a lot of dumbass selfish assholes out there in the world- I'd like to think they really CAN change their perspective and personalities if they understood and wanted to.

Aspects of peoples personalities can and do change all the time. And yet for most people, who they are remains fairly the same from their teens forward. Identity is a complex thing. What matters is figuring out who we are and remain true to yourself as you are.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 6

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 8:47:14 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

Trying to change someone and someone changing because they want to change are two very different things.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 7

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 9:04:41 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Part of my base personality is cheek and stubborness and the amount of Dom's i have spoken to who have said they could 'punish' those traits out of me is amazing!

Wasn't part of what attracted them to me these things?
If i lose these traits would i become the perfect sub?
Wouldn't a perfect sub be boring?
Would i be me anymore?
How do you keep a balance of give-and-take and not just end up giving all the time or vice versa?
How healthy is a relationship where the sub seems to give up everything to please her Master/ Mistress and the Master/Mistress sometimes appears to give up nothing?

Any Dom who says he can punish your personality traits *out* of you is basically trying to brainwash you, so write them off the list. Personally I like some stubborness/cheekiness it shows you do have a personality all your own and why would I want to get rid of it? Curb it? perhaps but not get rid of it. If its unacceptable the Dom/me needs to find someone else more to their liking.

There's no such thing as a perfect Dom/me or sub, we are humans and thereby flawed to some degree. What I may see as *perfect* someone else may see as horribly flawed. However I can choose a sub who is perfect FOR Me. I don't want a *yes* sub, who grovels and says yes to anything I say. To me that would be so boring. I want someone who thinks, has opinions and forms ideas.
Most important be yourself, its all you can be otherwise your pretending to be something that you are not.

Your a sub not a robot, you have wants, needs, limits and desires of your very own. Its important to find a Dom/me who shares these and respects them. If they don't respect your needs they don't respect you and you do not need that in your life. You want to serve, good do the best that you can, a Dom/me wants to be served the to can work beautifully as long as it is balanced and that takes work from both sides.

Any sub/slave who gives up everything to serve a Dom/me in my opinion is looking for validation of their existence through another person. You have to know and love yourself before you can truly give your all to another person. These are relationships and they take dedication and work from both sides or they will falter.

Just my opinions

~Lashra

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 8

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 9:18:27 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Some Doms/Dommes are not interested in challenges to their authority and actually DO want their submissive(s) or slave(s) to obey them, follow their orders to the letter, NOT create hassles, difficulties or more work for the Dom/me through whatever they deem to be "unacceptable" behavior.

Give and Take? Master has Given this slave rules to live by---not the other way around. He Takes what He wants when He wants and Gives what He wants when He wants. this slave has no problem with it, or complaint about it. Master has Given this slave the opportunity to serve Him, and for that, she is grateful and thankful and has no expectation of any other Gift. Anything over and above the opportunity to serve is gravy, including affection, social outings, etc.
e.g.:
this slave has no right of refusal to Master. whenever speaking with Master, this slave must speak in a respectful tone, without sarcasm, mockery or disdain. this slave is ultimately responsible for every word that leaves her lips. if this slave was to be cheeky or obstinate or bratty with Master, certain punishment would ensue, as He does not find that to be endearing in any way.

on the other hand,Master has every right to refuse any request this slave could possibly make--even to answer a question. there is no protocol set for Master as to how or when or even IF He is to speak to or refer to His slave. this slave mentioned in another thread that she makes no rules for Him--He does as HE pleases, however He sees fit---if He woke up tomorrow and decided He wanted His slave to _______________________, then she would do everything in her power to make sure it was done, according to His wishes.

when this slave had little unmentionables, she would hear them complain about how they felt someone had taken more than they gave and she would tell them over and over...."If you GAVE more, perhaps you wouldn't feel that people TAKE so much."

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/30/2006 9:20:25 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 9

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 9:28:39 AM

Lashra

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Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

---if He woke up tomorrow and decided He wanted His slave to _______________________, then she would do everything in her power to make sure it was done, according to His wishes.

murder her unmentionables Would you really? If goodness forbid he suffered a break down and commanded you to do this, would you?

~Lashra

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 10

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 10:42:48 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

---if He woke up tomorrow and decided He wanted His slave to _______________________, then she would do everything in her power to make sure it was done, according to His wishes.

murder her unmentionables Would you really? If goodness forbid he suffered a break down and commanded you to do this, would you?

~Lashra

actually, this slave would have to refer to His rule about the possibility of Him having a breakdown and spouting incoherent or obviously morally reprehensible behavior such as the murder of one's unmentionables and do the best she could to get Him the help He would need to end His suffering. sheesh, thought that would have been obvious, but then there are sensationalists out there...

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 11

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 10:43:04 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

I think as with all things judgement can be a bad or good thing. To judge someone so quickly as you judged me from my typing two words (stubborn and cheeky) to mean i was bratty i feel is a case of bad judgement. Saying that have we not all badly judged something at one time or another? Maybe the difference is that when i judge someone wrongly i am big enough to say i'm sorry i judged u wrongly.
As for changing - yes if its what u want thats all good but to change ur basic dimensions means to a certain extent losing sight of urself. People do change and grow and are shaped by every day life continously. Unfortunately it tends to be those selfish dumb ass people u mention who don't change but expect those around them too.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 10:48:21 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
As for changing - yes if its what u want thats all good but to change ur basic dimensions means to a certain extent losing sight of urself.

Not necessarily. And sometimes it means letting go of unnecessary parts of your old self so that you can grow into your new self.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 13

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 11:03:24 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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With respect could you explain to me a little more how u think it is possible to lose parts of ur personality, to change the basics. For example my stubborness if i managed to curb this part of me wud it not always lie under the surface or do u think it is possible to just delete it from me entirely?
Thank you in advance.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 11:07:48 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
With respect could you explain to me a little more how u think it is possible to lose parts of ur personality, to change the basics. For example my stubborness if i managed to curb this part of me wud it not always lie under the surface or do u think it is possible to just delete it from me entirely?
Thank you in advance.

We all have a little bit of everything inside us. We're never ALWAYS expressive of our WHOLE self all the time.

So what you are describing is simply changing the EXPRESSION of a personality trait. I'm an innately shy person. No one believes me when I tell them this. Why? Because in nearly ALL social situations, I have trained myself to be outgoing and sociable. I do not appear to be shy at all and give no indications of such.

But I still consider myself shy, and the people I am intimate with know exactly how true it is.

And I'm ok with it- it's what I wanted after all. It's definitely possible to train someone to express or repress parts of their personality and have it be a positive thing.

No I don't think those parts will "go away." They don't need to go away. They just don't need to be expressed.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 15

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 11:09:36 AM

darq

Posts: 443
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: under a rock
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Well, look at it this way.

You can be stubborn and *insubordinate* and always do things your own way because you're too stubborn to consider anyone else's ways ....

OR

You can be stubborn and set yourself to task, refusing to allow anything to stand between you and your goal of becoming a pleasing and more valuable submissive to your Master.

_____________________________

So you found a girl who thinks really deep thoughts ...
Tell me, whats so amazing about really deep thoughts?

I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 16

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 11:16:14 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

Thank you, i now understand what you are saying and see how that would work. Being stubborn is not something i particularly like about myself but have never found a way of dealing with as of yet.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: Give, take and change! - 5/30/2006 11:46:54 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Some Doms/Dommes are not interested in challenges to their authority and actually DO want their submissive(s) or slave(s) to obey them, follow their orders to the letter, NOT create hassles, difficulties or more work for the Dom/me through whatever they deem to be "unacceptable" behavior.

Give and Take? Master has Given this slave rules to live by---not the other way around. He Takes what He wants when He wants and Gives what He wants when He wants. this slave has no problem with it, or complaint about it. Master has Given this slave the opportunity to serve Him, and for that, she is grateful and thankful and has no expectation of any other Gift. Anything over and above the opportunity to serve is gravy, including affection, social outings, etc.
e.g.:
this slave has no right of refusal to Master. whenever speaking with Master, this slave must speak in a respectful tone, without sarcasm, mockery or disdain. this slave is ultimately responsible for every word that leaves her lips. if this slave was to be cheeky or obstinate or bratty with Master, certain punishment would ensue, as He does not find that to be endearing in any way.

on the other hand,Master has every right to refuse any request this slave could possibly make--even to answer a question. there is no protocol set for Master as to how or when or even IF He is to speak to or refer to His slave. this slave mentioned in another thread that she makes no rules for Him--He does as HE pleases, however He sees fit---if He woke up tomorrow and decided He wanted His slave to _______________________, then she would do everything in her power to make sure it was done, according to His wishes.

when this slave had little unmentionables, she would hear them complain about how they felt someone had taken more than they gave and she would tell them over and over...."If you GAVE more, perhaps you wouldn't feel that people TAKE so much."

I love your words here, as I can relate to them so well.

LA also makes great points, as did darq. Stubbornness can work to ones advantage, if channeled properly.

Great thread!

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 5/30/2006 11:48:55 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

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