quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Raiikun and I had this discussion before. He and willbe kept insisting it was due to the trust funds. They insisted those funds were part of the Unified budget... they havent been since 1990.

Not entering that debate. Simply noting that the source he cited doesn't say what he claims.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

You might want to check your facts there...according to the National Treasury website, the National Debt still increased every year that Clinton was president.

You need to check yours.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx

Click on "Federal Debt: Answers to Frequently Asked Questions - An Update"

See Figure 8 on page 27.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Btw, Raiikin is confusing the deficit with the debt. Its a convenient trick.



The Clinton years showed the effects of a large tax increase that Clinton pushed through in his first year, and that Republicans incorrectly claim is the "largest tax increase in history." It fell almost exclusively on upper-income taxpayers. Clinton’s fiscal 1994 budget also contained some spending restraints. An equally if not more powerful influence was the booming economy and huge gains in the stock markets, the so-called dot-com bubble, which brought in hundreds of millions in unanticipated tax revenue from taxes on capital gains and rising salaries.

Clinton’s large budget surpluses also owe much to the Social Security tax on payrolls. Social Security taxes now bring in more than the cost of current benefits, and the "Social Security surplus" makes the total deficit or surplus figures look better than they would if Social Security wasn’t counted. But even if we remove Social Security from the equation, there was a surplus of $1.9 billion in fiscal 1999 and $86.4 billion in fiscal 2000. So any way you count it, the federal budget was balanced and the deficit was erased, if only for a while.

Update, Feb. 11: Some readers wrote to us saying we should have made clear the difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.

Other readers have noted a USA Today story stating that, under an alternative type of accounting, the final four years of the Clinton administration taken together would have shown a deficit. This is based on an annual document called the "Financial Report of the U.S. Government," which reports what the governments books would look like if kept on an accrual basis like those of most corporations, rather than the cash basis that the government has always used. The principal difference is that under accrual accounting the government would book immediately the costs of promises made to pay future benefits to government workers and Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries. But even under accrual accounting, the annual reports showed surpluses of $69.2 billion in fiscal 1998, $76.9 billion in fiscal 1999, and $46 billion for fiscal year 2000. So even if the government had been using that form of accounting the deficit would have been erased for those three years.

quote:

Check the years in question, and you can calculate these results from the data:
FY . . . .Ending. . . . . Debt . . . . . . . . . .Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Btw, Raiikin is confusing the deficit with the debt. Its a convenient trick.

No, I'm not, please stop lying.

It's a fact that the FY ending 1999 we had a National Debt of $5.656270 trillion.
It's a fact that the FY ending 2000 we had a National Debt of $5.674178 trillion.

These numbers were gathered through the Department of the Treasury's website, and simple math shows a $17.91 billion deficit for that year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Update, Feb. 11: Some readers wrote to us saying we should have made clear the difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.

http://factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

Page 4.

This chart shows that the Government has progressed from an accrual deficit in fiscal 1998 to accrual surpluses
in fiscal 1999 and 2000. Revenue has steadily increased each year while Net Cost of U.S. Government Operations
experienced a decrease in fiscal 1999. The largest increase in revenue for fiscal 2000 was for individual income tax
and tax withholdings (an increase of $179.2 billion or 12.3 percent). The decrease in net cost for fiscal 1999 was
due primarily to a change in the interest rate assumptions for the veterans compensation and burial benefits payable
and its effect on net cost was a decrease of $204.8 billion. In fiscal 2000, there were further changes in the actuarial
and interest rate assumptions resulting in an increase in net cost and accrued liability for veterans benefits and
services of $62.5 billion.


Page 8

The excess of revenue over net cost figure (accrual basis) contained in these financial statements for fiscal
2000 is $46.0 billion. In fiscal 2000, there was a unified budget surplus (primarily on the cash basis) of $236.9
billion. The primary components of the difference that have been identified are increases in the liability for veteran
compensation and burial benefits, $62.5 billion; increases in the liability for civilian employee benefits, $55.3
billion; increases in the liability for military employee benefits, $39.5 billion; principal payments of pre-credit
reform loans, $24.1 billion; increases in environmental liabilities, $19.6 billion; and decreases in capitalized fixed
assets, $31.6 billion. For more information on the detailed reconciliation, see the Reconciliation of the Excess of
Revenue Over Net Cost to the Unified Budget Surplus in the Supplemental Information section.

Page 9

Revenue
Government revenue comes from two sources: nonexchange transactions and exchange transactions.
Nonexchange revenues arise primarily from exercise of the Government’s power to demand payments from the
public (e.g., taxes, duties, fines, and penalties) but also include donations. Nonexchange revenue is the U.S.
Government’s primary source of revenue and totaled $2,040.0 billion in fiscal 2000. More than 95 percent of this
total came from tax receipts, with the remainder coming from customs duties and other miscellaneous receipts.
Exchange revenues aris e when a Government entity provides goods and services to the public or to another
Government entity for a price. Another term for exchange revenue is earned revenue. During fiscal 2000, the U.S.
Government earned $160.5 billion in exchange revenue. Of these revenues, $155.7 billion is offset against the gross
cost of the related functions to arrive at the function’s net cost. The U.S. Government also earned $4.8 billion that
was not offset against the cost of any function (e.g., royalties on the Outer Continental Shelf lands).
The following chart shows the components of revenue by major source.

Expenses by Function
The net cost of U.S. Government operations was $1,998.8 billion for fiscal 2000. Net cost represents the gross
cost of operations less related earned revenues. The Statement of Net Cost reflects the cost incurred to carry out the
national priorities identified by the President and the Congress. Costs are allocated to functions and subfunctions
based on accounting standards and, in some cases, may be allocated differently than the budget. The functions and
subfunctions used to accumulate costs associated with the national priorities are identified in the President’s budget
and described in detail in the Supplemental Information section of this Financial Report. The accompanying chart
presents the percentage of the net cost of U.S. Government operations by each of the U.S. Government’s major
functions.

Now, you keep harping on the 17.9 amount.


Page 103

First column of numbers... Beginning Balance September 30, 1999
Second column of numbers... Net Change During Fiscal 2000
Third set of numbers......... Ending Balance September 30, 2000

Marketable securities .......................................... 3,233.0 --- (240.2)--- 2,992.8--- 6.631%
Non-marketable securities ................................... 2,414.3 -----215.0---- 2,629.3--- 6.628%
Non-interest bearing debt .......................................... 9.0------ 43.1-------- 52.1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Treasury securities ......................................5,656.3 -------17.9---- 5,674.2

Page 12

Treasury Securities

Now that the Federal Government has achieved budget surpluses coupled with projections of continuing
surpluses, focus has started to shift to the impact of the surpluses on the Federal debt.
While we have had 3 consecutive years of budget surpluses, it is important to understand the composition of
budget surpluses, and the relationship that these excess funds have had on reducing or changing the composition of
the Federal debt. There are two components of Federal debt: debt held by the public and intragovernmental
holdings.
Debt held by the public includes all Federal debt held by individuals, corporations, State or local governments,
Federal Reserve System, foreign governments, and other entities outside of the U.S. Government. The types of
securities that are held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Treasury Notes, Treasury Bonds,
U.S. Savings Bonds, State and Local Government Series securities, Foreign Series securities, and Domestic Series
securities.
Intragovernmental holdings include Government Account Series securities held by Government trust funds,
revolving funds, and special funds; Federal Financing Bank securities held by Government trust funds; and Treasury
securities and agency securities held by Government accounts. The laws establishing Government trust funds (such
as the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds) generally require the balances to be invested in special Treasury
debt securities. Although intragovernmental holdings are used in the calculation of the Federal debt subject to the
statutory debt limit, intragovernmental transactions are eliminated in the consolidation process of preparing this
Financial Report since they are claims of one part of the Government against another part. However, they are
important to an understanding of total debt because, as the intragovernmental securities are redeemed, other sources
of funds will be identified to fund the redemptions.

Securities that represent Federal debt held by the public are primarily issued by the Treasury and include:
· Interest-bearing marketable securities (bills, notes, and bonds).
· Interest-bearing nonmarketable securities (foreign series, State and local government series, domestic series,
and savings bonds).
· Non interest-bearing debt (matured and other).

As of September 30, 2000, $5,591.6 billion of debt was subject to a statutory limit (31 United States Code
3101). That limit was $5,950 billion. The debt subject to the limit includes: Treasury Securities held by the public
and intragovernmental holdings, as well as Government guaranteed debt of Federal agencies.
Section 3111 of title 31, United States Code, authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to use money received
from the sale of an obligation and other money in the general fund of the Treasury to buy, redeem, or refund, at or
before maturity, outstanding bonds, notes, certificates of indebtedness, Treasury bills, or savings certificates of the
U.S. Government. During fiscal 2000, the Secretary of the Treasury authorized the redemption of $21.3 billion of
outstanding unmatured marketable Treasury securities at a premium of $5.5 billion. These early redemption
transactions are known as Treasury “buybacks.” The net change of the Federal debt securities held by the public
during fiscal 2000 includes $21.2 billion related to these buybacks.

http://fms.treas.gov/fr/00frusg/00frusg.pdf

In other words...The budget was balanced. Its at that point the Treasury has to do something with the surplus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I've demonstrated that you take the national debts between 1999 and 2000, 17.9 billion is how much the overall National Debt increased in that year.

Even if that debt came from money borrowed from the Social Security and other trust funds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It didnt. The Budget is based upon income minus outgoing. Simple math. That 17.9 billion came into play in the Treasury itself... after the budget is balanced. The law clearly states any surplus is to be reinvested back into Treasury holdings.

Section 3111 of title 31, United States Code, authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to use money received
from the sale of an obligation and other money in the general fund of the Treasury to buy, redeem, or refund, at or
before maturity, outstanding bonds, notes, certificates of indebtedness, Treasury bills, or savings certificates of the
U.S. Government. During fiscal 2000, the Secretary of the Treasury authorized the redemption of $21.3 billion of
outstanding unmatured marketable Treasury securities at a premium of $5.5 billion. These early redemption
transactions are known as Treasury “buybacks.” The net change of the Federal debt securities held by the public
during fiscal 2000 includes $21.2 billion related to these buybacks.

and

Now that the Federal Government has achieved budget surpluses coupled with projections of continuing surpluses, focus has started to shift to the impact of the surpluses on the Federal debt. While we have had 3 consecutive years of budget surpluses, it is important to understand the composition of budget surpluses, and the relationship that these excess funds have had on reducing or changing the composition of the Federal debt. There are two components of Federal debt: debt held by the public and intragovernmental holdings.

That 17.9 Billion is from... wait for it... Treasury Securities. This is an after budget expense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My numbers came straight from the Treasury Department.

http://fms.treas.gov/fr/00frusg/00frusg.pdf

A MESSAGE FROM THE
SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY

I am pleased to present the fiscal year 2000 Financial Report of the United States Government. The Report
includes audited financial statements that cover the executive branch, as well as parts of the legislative and judicial
branches of U.S. Government. This is the fourth report issued pursuant to the Federal Financial Management Act of
1994. Our goal is to present the activities of the U.S. Government in a timely, accurate, and professional manner.
Developing the capability for the Government to produce financial reports in accordance with generally accepted
accounting principles continues to be an enormous task.

The U.S. Government is again reporting an accrual-based surplus, which this year is $46 billion.
Additionally, this past year the size of the Federal debt held by the public has been reduced by $223 billion. All 24
major agencies completed their financial statements on time and the quality of their reporting continues to improve.
The Joint Financial Management Improvement Program has established a Governmentwide financial software
certification process that is beginning to ensure that commercial systems being purchased by the Federal
Government meet its requirements.

quote:

Yes, I know that if I borrow $1000 in 2000, that in 2010 that the debt load adjusted would be $784.00.

I addressed that in my response that you claim didn't address it.

But even if adjusted for inflation it's $784, the debt collectors would still be asking for $1000. I'm not dismissing the importance of adjusting for inflation, just pointing out correctly that it still does not change the FACT that the debt still went up each year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No. In 2010 dollars, that debt would be worth $1253.30. And I would gladly repay the $1000. In fact, I'd gladly repay $1200--I'm still ahead..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No. In 2010 dollars, that debt would be worth $1253.30. And I would gladly repay the $1000. In fact, I'd gladly repay $1200--I'm still ahead..

Right, because that $1000 in 2010 would be worth $784 2000 dollars, which is what I meant by debt load.

Edit: That's my fault though, I coulda added one phrase and made that clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Fine. From 1998-2000, the debt "load" went down.

quote:

From 1998 - 2000, though, the National Debt still went up

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

From 1998 - 2000, though, the National Debt still went up

Debt went up.. Clinton still had one hell of a surplus.