Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 7:00:46 AM)

There is plenty, plenty oil. There are no major impacting wars anymore. Lybia supplied 2% and it may be now 1% or less, so what.

We have been told that prices are determined by supply and demand. That is only partially true and almost always in finished goods...not in (raw) commodities. Why ?

It IS within the realm of how I define capitalism which is in fact...'moneyism' i.e., turning paper into money. I will explain.

The pricing of say Jordan shoes or that hammer you need to replace is determined by the actual consumer. They are items that can sit on a shelf and wait for demand to come to it or once enough time passed, discounted and sold.

However, when it comes to commodities, it is quite another story and it will be the cause of serious economic impact throughout the world and why China for example is buying up all that they can.

I can either get a contract to make Jordan shoes and make money, (starting in I think, in Vietnam) or I can make hammers and compete with other hammers on the market but when it comes to commodities, here is the story.

It isn't practical for me to get into the oil drilling, refinery or retail business...it would cost $billions. But I see an opportunity to make money on oil as well as other commodities. So how do I make money on oil and without being in the excavation, production or retailing of any ?

I create a piece of paper called a contract for the purchase of said commodity. That piece of paper has certain and now standard terms upon which I can do what ? Speculate. Those terms allow me to then sell the piece of paper and with it...contract rights, at a higher price if I can get it.

It is the value upon which I sell that paper that then sets or re-sets the price of the commodities the contract offers. This is called speculation. The speculation being that I can sell that piece of paper (and the rights contained therein) for more than I paid for it. The ease with which almost anybody can take part in this part of capitalism is the paper-speculation area, it what drives the price of commodities.

Why is it a bad thing ? It is because the supply of oil being actually higher than demand requires reveals a stubbornness in the retail sector to reduce prices to increase demand. Gas retailers don't need to at the price of around $3.50/gal. or so. Obviously they are selling gas.

So how is it that I suggest that the price of gas is not falling like it should ? It is because refiners simply can't refine oil for which there are no buyers (in the form of gas) and at $100 BBL., supply is about to bury them.

Some refiners reporting some losses for parts of 2011. Just how can an oil refiner lose money when it was supposed to be demand for that oil that caused it to be over $100/bbl. ? Oklahoma refineries can't refine all of the oil excavated now at $100/bbl.+.

So it becomes obvious, it is because the supply of raw crude at the refinery is so high, they cannot possibly refine it all. So why is oil above $100 bbl. ? See above.

It is the unfettered, untaxed (relatively) and unregulated speculation that has prices artificially high. Most oil companies like consumers are too, as Adams warned...slave to the speculator. They too need to buy these contracts or margin suffers and are thus protecting their own interests.

The Eurozone is considering an additional tax (the transaction tax failed because 75% was coming from London) on this type of speculation on commodities.

What say you ? Should we regulate and tax this form of price speculation via commodity paper-trading ? I say yes, society has a compelling interest in minimizing price swings and inflation from speculation in all commodities.







Real0ne -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 7:44:17 AM)

Shhh there will be a disaster!




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 10:52:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Shhh there will be a disaster!


I know, a bit long but wanted to fully explain myself.

Simple questions. Why is oil $100/bbl. while there is plenty of oil available and what do we (govt.) do about it ? There in fact will be disasters economically when all, ALL commodities are priced to serve the speculator...not society.

I guess we'll notice when gas is $8-$10 a gal. Loaf of common white bread $7. There is going to be super-inflation and govt. will consider it... mission accomplished.

As a result, it is a rhetorical question because the US govt. will not do anything no matter what 'the people' say.

The US govt is here to serve the capitalist, is here to serve the speculators and here to provide or protect...profits that are essentially un-taxed, unlimited and unproductive.





Politesub53 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 11:08:10 AM)

How can you tax oil that isnt yours ? It is a global market and oil producers will just sell it where they can get the best deal. This is why many Middle Eastern producers want to switch to dealing in Euros and not Dollars.





Musicmystery -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 11:24:30 AM)

quote:

Lybia supplied 2% and it may be now 1% or less, so what.

Oil reserves in Libya are the largest in Africa and the eighth largest in the world with 46.4 billion barrels (7.38×109 m3) as of 2010. Oil production was 1.7 million barrels per day (270×103 m3/d) as of 2010, giving Libya 77 years of reserves at current production rates if no new reserves were to be found.

Libya is considered a highly attractive oil area due to its low cost of oil production (as low as $1 per barrel at some fields), and proximity to European markets. Libyan oil is also "light," making it ideal for jet fuel.

The majority (85%) of Libyan oil is exported to European markets. 11% or 403 million barrels (64.1×106 m3) of oil imports to the European union in 2010 came from Libya, making it the third biggest exporter behind Norway and Russia.





Musicmystery -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 11:27:41 AM)

quote:

unregulated speculation that has prices artificially high


Agreed...mainly because the stock market has been flat.

Oil is going up regardless, though. Rapidly increasing 3rd world demand and extraction from more difficult places makes this inevitable.

That people are manipulating and profiting along the way...granted.




tj444 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 11:27:43 AM)

futures contracts came into existance to give businesses a way to control their costs and know (as much as one can) what their costs to produce and sell their products were and keep prices to users/consumers from flucutating too wildly.. they serve a very good and basic service.. speculators fill the gap so that futures contracts can be bought and sold more easily due to a liquid market and help to keep those prices from also fluctuating wildly so they create a more stable market..

The futures exchange started in the 1700s, they have been around for a very long time.. I dont see that changing.. if you try to add a tax in one exchange, people will just move to the untaxed exchanges and do business there.. Jmo...





MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 12:58:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

How can you tax oil that isnt yours ? It is a global market and oil producers will just sell it where they can get the best deal. This is why many Middle Eastern producers want to switch to dealing in Euros and not Dollars.



Tax the profits on paper (ALL paper) at 50% and oil profits too for that matter. AND we are talking federal taxes on oil that is not 'theirs.'

It is non-productive use of capital resources. We need capitalist taxes on paper-trading and a normal equal tax regime on money actually doing something that at least serves society somehow and taxes is how.

Example: when oil had its first run-up to about $140/bbl., investment in oil contracts went from an average of $80 billion. But only a few months in, contracts were $280 billion. That's $200 billion cash NOT invested in production or certainly something jo-creation. [sic]

The so-called global market in oil is also slave to the speculator. When futures contracts run higher, the 'global' price of oil is higher.

The price begins to fall into the 90's when what ? When it is parked in tankers and such waiting for the refineries to buy it.




Politesub53 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 4:40:21 PM)

You fully miss the point. Speculators operate in a global market, they will sell oil to the highest bidder. The only speculators your Government can possibly tax are those who pay income on earnings in the US.




Politesub53 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 5:12:15 PM)

Here is a good article as to how the speculators made money due to poor regulation.

http://engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Financial_Tsunami/Oil_Speculation/oil_speculation.HTM




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 5:52:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You fully miss the point. Speculators operate in a global market, they will sell oil to the highest bidder. The only speculators your Government can possibly tax are those who pay income on earnings in the US.

Your link changes nothing and in fact reinforces my point. TAX IT !!

Yes, e v e r y b o d y operates in a global market but companies and individuals pay taxes. The Eurozone is considering just such a tax, you make any money on paper-trading at all, it may become subject to their highest income tax. It should 50% and ours should be 50%.

It's a simple equation, taxing it just like you tax any other income except it should be higher because this kind of trading serves no one but the profiteer while this non-productive price speculation hurts society.

This redirects investments and income toward something that is productive, rather than simply paper-trading. It is the paper-trading that accumulates risk and when taken too far...risk that could begin to spread to that global market.





popeye1250 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 5:56:49 PM)

I was reading in a Yahoo News story today that said a gallon of gasoline in Libya goes for about .28 cents per gallon.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 6:03:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I was reading in a Yahoo News story today that said a gallon of gasoline in Libya goes for about .28 cents per gallon.

That's because the supply there and almost complete lack of demand, overwhelms any speculation in word markets. Similar to gas costing so much in Iran of all places. Plenty of oil but they have little or no refineries of oil into gas, so they need to import it at world 'speculated' prices.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 6:11:36 PM)

Oops




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 6:22:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

unregulated speculation that has prices artificially high


Agreed...mainly because the stock market has been flat.

Oil is going up regardless, though. Rapidly increasing 3rd world demand and extraction from more difficult places makes this inevitable.

That people are manipulating and profiting along the way...granted.

The problem is though that we are free to speculate. The only way for society not to suffer so much is too remove some of the incentive. Govts. have every right to tax it higher so as to redirect that investment to something much more productive and beneficial to society.

This speculation goes on regardless of stock performance and in fact once reaching a certain and early point...produces a herd mentally where money that would go to some real investments, goes instead...into this paper.




tj444 -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 6:26:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You fully miss the point. Speculators operate in a global market, they will sell oil to the highest bidder. The only speculators your Government can possibly tax are those who pay income on earnings in the US.

Your link changes nothing and in fact reinforces my point. TAX IT !!

Yes, e v e r y b o d y operates in a global market but companies and individuals pay taxes. The Eurozone is considering just such a tax, you make any money on paper-trading at all, it may become subject to their highest income tax. It should 50% and ours should be 50%.

It's a simple equation, taxing it just like you tax any other income except it should be higher because this kind of trading serves no one but the profiteer while this non-productive price speculation hurts society.

This redirects investments and income toward something that is productive, rather than simply paper-trading. It is the paper-trading that accumulates risk and when taken too far...risk that could begin to spread to that global market.

hmmmm.. seriously?.. you dont think they are 10 friggin steps ahead of the govt? Gee.. i wonder why there is a new third exchange.. run by... oh lookie.. the American Nymex Prez & by fellow Americans & Brits.. they are already setting up their exit strategy to move trading away from the US & UK and to the DME the minute the US govt does anything they dont like..

"A third rather new oil exchange, the Dubai Mercantile Exchange (DME), trading Dubai crude, is more or less a daughter of Nymex, with Nymex President, James Newsome, sitting on the board of DME and most key personnel British or American citizens.





KYsissy -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 6:42:46 PM)

Look up abiot oil if you really want to get pissed off. I can't say if its true but there is a small but growing body of evidence that says the earth just makes oil constantlym, it isn't finite and from rotten dinosaurs.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 9:33:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

unregulated speculation that has prices artificially high


Agreed...mainly because the stock market has been flat.

Oil is going up regardless, though. Rapidly increasing 3rd world demand and extraction from more difficult places makes this inevitable.

That people are manipulating and profiting along the way...granted.

The problem is though that we are free to speculate. The only way for society not to suffer so much is too remove some of the incentive. Govts. have every right to tax it higher so as to redirect that investment to something much more productive and beneficial to society.

This speculation goes on regardless of stock performance and in fact once reaching a certain and early point...produces a herd mentally where money that would go to some real investments, goes instead...into this paper.

Probably pointless to note the benefits of that investment, and the problems with killing it off.

Your last sentence needs tin foil before it makes sense.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 9:55:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

unregulated speculation that has prices artificially high


Agreed...mainly because the stock market has been flat.

Oil is going up regardless, though. Rapidly increasing 3rd world demand and extraction from more difficult places makes this inevitable.

That people are manipulating and profiting along the way...granted.

The problem is though that we are free to speculate. The only way for society not to suffer so much is too remove some of the incentive. Govts. have every right to tax it higher so as to redirect that investment to something much more productive and beneficial to society.

This speculation goes on regardless of stock performance and in fact once reaching a certain and early point...produces a herd mentally where money that would go to some real investments, goes instead...into this paper.

Probably pointless to note the benefits of that investment, and the problems with killing it off.

Your last sentence needs tin foil before it makes sense.

I am all 'eyes' on the benefits of that investment, would love to read all about them...I see none. It is merely flipping a contract, like a piece of art or other antique. It is short term paper-trading and nothing more.

My last sentence while testing is that the oil companies are financially required to also 'speculate' only it isn't in making money on the paper, it is in saving money to minimize any losses due to what ? Insurance against the further inflation in the price of a commodity due to rapid speculation and one...they must purchase. That too draws in more money...hence the herd mentality.







SilverBoat -> RE: Why is oil anywhere around $100 bbl. ? (1/11/2012 10:03:07 PM)

Oil, gas, etc like most other mineral commodities, doesn't have an inherent time-limit on its value. It doesn't rot in warehouses within a few months if it isn't used, like foodstuff or livestock commodities, or require closely synchronized production, transport and consumption, like electricity or potable water That allows supply-side cartels to keep prices elevated with less delay-induced cost to the controlling entities; OPEC meets regularly to establish production quotas aimed at keeping prices high and stable.

That also makes speculative skulduggery more lucrative and less risky, because even a delivery contract that flops massively still incurs only storage costs. There have been (and may still be) periods when the barrel-volume daily trading of oil contracts in the US alone exceeded the nation's yearly consumption. That jacks prices up too, in general.

Somebody mentioned taxing capital gains, especially of the purely 'paper' kind, at 50% or in the highest applicable income-tax bracket.

The messing about with capital gains exemptions had the effect of massively subsidizing 'vulture-capitalism' ... How's that been working out for the average US citizen so far?

SB




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