RE: Gay marriage (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:15:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

are you really that blind?

yes apparently you are.

Really? Why can't we accept and celebrate our differences? Is that such a fucking blindly stupid idea?

K.




Miserlou -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:21:23 PM)

quote:

Why can't we accept and celebrate our differences? Is that such a fucking blindly stupid idea?
yes, in this case it is. if gays can be denied the complete equality under the law that is their birthright as americans because it offends somebody's religious or traditional beliefs or ideas to allow them that equality, then you can be as well.

is that really the sort of country you want to live in?



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:30:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

and in so doing establish the precedent that we are not equal? why not simply stand for what is right and demand the rights as guaranteed by the constitution. we are all equal, that is the premise of this country, to allow these half measures is to allow that fact to be overlooked and that basic principal to be overturned, as have so many of the basic ideals upon which this country was founded.

accepting civil unions or domestic partnerships is surrendering the principle upon which the whole demand is based. equal rights, not equivalent. if jim is not free to marry sam, then i am not free, nor are you. freedom and equality applies to everyone, or it applies to no one.


So fucking simple and basic, it's embarrassing and ridiculous that everyone doesn't comprehend this,



Did I say accept and stop?

Please show me where I did.. either of you.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:32:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

Why can't we accept and celebrate our differences? Is that such a fucking blindly stupid idea?
yes, in this case it is. if gays can be denied the complete equality under the law that is their birthright as americans because it offends somebody's religious or traditional beliefs or ideas to allow them that equality, then you can be as well.

is that really the sort of country you want to live in?






The reality is, until you put enough people into government who wants to give you your rights over wanting to be re-elected and have their wallets fattened, you are only butting your head against the wall.



GotSteel -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:32:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And I will ask... yet again...

What is more important right now.... the rights... or the label.

And yet again we will explain the rights ARE inseparable from the the label.

If it's not marriage then they don't have equal legal status. Our country has tried segregation before, we should know enough not to try it again.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:33:30 PM)

Read above GS and tell me I am wrong.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:35:44 PM)

No, we just dont work with fantasy.

Yes, you SHOULD have that right.

No, you DONT have that right.

I explained why.

I cant help it if you dont like the answers.



Icarys -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:36:16 PM)

quote:

Why are some, both repub and dem, so set on denying others their civil and legal rights?


Because they are on the wrong side of the law. The Founding Papers are the leading law of the land and under them, ALL people are equal.



Musicmystery -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:37:05 PM)

I guess the world is not so simplistic from here.

Thank God you came along.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:38:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

if you don't stop, then you haven't accepted it have you? but again you're missing the whole point.


No, that IS the whole point. You grab and keep, working towards the final goal.



Kirata -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:43:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou
quote:

Why can't we accept and celebrate our differences? Is that such a fucking blindly stupid idea?

yes, in this case it is. if gays can be denied the complete equality under the law that is their birthright as americans because it offends somebody's religious or traditional beliefs or ideas to allow them that equality, then you can be as well.

But you're not arguing for equality under the law. You're arguing over a fucking word. If the gay and lesbian community was just pursuing equal recognition under the law for their life-partnerships, they'd probably have it by now. But for some reason, they've decided instead to poke a stick in a hornet's nest.

I've heard people ask why the word "marriage" is so important to heterosexuals. But I think the real question is, why is it so important to gays and lesbians? I suspect the answer would be that we both think of it with the same reverence and depth of feeling, which might be a better approach than calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a ridiculous embarrasment to the human race (just to pick an example at random).

K.



Miserlou -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:45:03 PM)

i'm afraid you are wrong. i DO have that right, the governments of the nation and most states are just denying people the ability to exercise that right. you are willing to accept that the government is acting illegally, i am not. what you deem fantasy is not, it is the law of the land. you think it is better to grab little bits and pieces of equality when they are doled out, i don't. equal is equal is equal. almost equal is unequal, and that is illegal.

there is no rational reason for such discrimination, it is illegal on so many levels, yet so many are ok with that, saying that the gays should compromise in order to spare the feelings of others. i say no. equality is their right, not a privilege to be granted by a benevolent governor or congress or voters, it is their right, and i will demand it along with them.the only way to legally prevent gay marriage is to abolish straight marriage, but as long as some segment of the population is allowed to marry, then all segments must be as well.



Kirata -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:48:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

And yet again we will explain the rights ARE inseparable from the the label.

Yeppers... everybody knows that the smell of a rose is inseparable from the name.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

If it's not marriage then they don't have equal legal status. Our country has tried segregation before, we should know enough not to try it again.

First "separate but equal," now "segregation." Gotta work the old racial angle, eh?

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

K.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:52:00 PM)

quote:

i'm afraid you are wrong. i DO have that right, the governments of the nation and most states are just denying people the ability to exercise that right. you are willing to accept that the government is acting illegally, i am not.


Then by all means go hire a lawyer and fight those bastards! Im sure the ACLU will take up your cause. After all, it is a right guarenteed to you under the Constitution.

quote:

what you deem fantasy is not, it is the law of the land. you think it is better to grab little bits and pieces of equality when they are doled out, i don't. equal is equal is equal. almost equal is unequal, and that is illegal.


Kirata covered this the best way I have seen it put. You want to fight city hall by standing on the steps and screaming your demands. That rarely works. What does work is fighting them through the system.

quote:

there is no rational reason for such discrimination, it is illegal on so many levels, yet so many are ok with that, saying that the gays should compromise in order to spare the feelings of others.



Again, where did I say it was ok to discriminate? Where did I say that you should compromise?

I said work and grab what you can, fight for your rights on all levels. Why wait 20 years when you can have some of that now? Thats what does not make sense to many people. Yes, you should have the whole enchilada. And if it were up for a vote tomorrow, I would be there voting for your right. But those that make the laws said "no". Now what? Do you drop to the floor and throw a temper tantrum or do you use the system against itself?

quote:

not a privilege to be granted by a benevolent governor or congress or voters, it is their right, and i will demand it along with them.


No one told you not too. No one said anyone should not demand what their rights are. What we are saying is work through the system. As long as you butt heads against it, you will not win.

quote:

the only way to legally prevent gay marriage is to abolish straight marriage, but as long as some segment of the population is allowed to marry, then all segments must be as well.


Yes, you are right.

Can they?

No.

Now what?



Miserlou -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:52:39 PM)

quote:


But you're not arguing for equality under the law.
but i am. you are arguing against it. and as far as being a ridiculous embarrassment to the human race, i haven't said anybody is, though some obviously are, like those who cannot see that the label is of paramount importance. if you can marry a woman and i cannot, we are not equal. period. if you want to make a special category of partnership for same sex couples, then they are not equal. period.



dcnovice -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:53:25 PM)

quote:

But I think the real question is, why is it so important to gays and lesbians?


For this gay man, the word is important because it says that our lives and committed relationships are of equal dignity to those of straight folks.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:54:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:


But you're not arguing for equality under the law.
but i am. you are arguing against it. and as far as being a ridiculous embarrassment to the human race, i haven't said anybody is, though some obviously are, like those who cannot see that the label is of paramount importance. if you can marry a woman and i cannot, we are not equal. period. if you want to make a special category of partnership for same sex couples, then they are not equal. period.



"You cannot marry, but you can have a civil union."

"No thank you, I will wait until you allow me to have a marriage"

That is what you are saying.



Miserlou -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:55:52 PM)

quote:

Now what?
demand that they be given their rights. demand it, and demand it, and demand it, and keep demanding it, and when they throw a bone to them, tell them its not good enough and keep on demanding their rights.



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:56:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

But I think the real question is, why is it so important to gays and lesbians?


For this gay man, the word is important because it says that our lives and committed relationships are of equal dignity to those of straight folks.


DC, trust me, we get that, we understand that, and we embrace that. Nothing would make me happier than to tell you you can get married anytime you want. But thats not reality.

Again, now what?

Do you turn your back on everything until you get the whole piece?



tazzygirl -> RE: Gay marriage (1/12/2012 7:57:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

Now what?
demand that they be given their rights. demand it, and demand it, and demand it, and keep demanding it, and when they throw a bone to them, tell them its not good enough and keep on demanding their rights.



A smart person would grab the bone and demand more. You never let go of a bone.



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