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RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 11:09:22 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315

I don't know about the big cities, but here is a fraud case from a smaller town in NY state,

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/

Voter fraud exists, and it is not something that is unique to one party or the other. Voter fraud is all about getting or keeping power. And most politicians out there will do whatever they think they can get away with to stay in office and in power.

Now, personally, i see no problem with requiring some form of ID to vote. However, the ID can not cost the individual voter anything (no fees or charges to get one) and the only requirements have to be the same as what would be needed to vote legally.

We also need a better review process for absentee ballets, as a lot of fraud happens with those.

Former Troy Democratic City Clerk William McInerney, Democratic Councilman John Brown, and Democratic political operatives Anthony Renna and Anthony DeFiglio have entered guilty pleas in the case, in which numerous signatures were allegedly forged on absentee ballots in the 2009 Working Families Party primary, the political party that was associated with the now-defunct community group, ACORN.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/#ixzz1jMoIXK2F

How would ID cards prevent absentee voter fraud?

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Post #: 21

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 11:19:13 AM

coyotesub315

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/21/2011
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Id cards would not stop the absentee ballet fraud, which is why I said that we need a better review process for those.

Part of the solution is getting the voter registration roles up to date. If the people that have died or moved are listed as such then it will be harder to use their id to cast votes.

I also don't think there is any way to completely eliminate the fraud, but we should be taking steps to minimize it.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 22

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 11:38:50 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
I don't know about the big cities, but here is a fraud case from a smaller town in NY state,

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/

Voter fraud exists, and it is not something that is unique to one party or the other. Voter fraud is all about getting or keeping power. And most politicians out there will do whatever they think they can get away with to stay in office and in power.

Wow, there's an example of voter fraud. That's not the point. The scale to which the fear of the fraud taking place according to conservatives would mean thousands if not tens of thousands of people joining in a massive and secret conspiracy against the goverment. In order to affect an election in all seriousness would mean several thousand votes being casted. As it stands now, less then a hundred such cases have cropped up in each state in the last few elections. Republicans have failed to show enough evidence that such a thing is as wide spread as they state. These are the same folks that told us there were massive stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq a few years ago...

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
Now, personally, i see no problem with requiring some form of ID to vote. However, the ID can not cost the individual voter anything (no fees or charges to get one) and the only requirements have to be the same as what would be needed to vote legally.

Yes, lets just remove the 4th Amendment while we are at it. The good old days when I could say my name and address and get my ballot will be gone shortly. All because of a bunch of paranoid and delutional conservatives that REALLY need to be medicated. Why should I have to show ID? I say who I am and where I live. I should be allowed my privacy under the 4th Amendment. Last I checked the good citizens of this country when the founding fathers were still alive didnt need photo ID cards to prove they were who they said they were when voting.

Again, how often does voter fraud ACTUALLY take place in every state of the Union?

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
We also need a better review process for absentee ballets, as a lot of fraud happens with those.

And you have EVIDENCE to support this accusation, right? I'm taking the educated guess that your 'evidence' comes from a cable network station named after a small woodland animal that ends in the letter 'x'.

(in reply to coyotesub315)

Post #: 23

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 12:15:24 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Joether, there you go again!
Voter fraud is like when a person is stealing from you. They don't *TELL* you that they're stealing from you.
And it's not just republicans out here who want voter i.d., us Independents do as well and we out number either the Dems or Repubs individually.
Can you imagine a store where the employees are vehimitly against security cameras being put up because of large losses in inventory?
Something going on there!
What is the big deal with showing i.d. at the polling place? I don't care what they do there as long as our elections are kept sacrosanct and non-citizens are kept out.
I believe that it's a felony for a non-citizen to even attempt to vote.

P.S. next time you're pulled over by a cop try that 4 th amendment stuff on him/her and see where that gets you.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/13/2012 12:17:28 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 12:24:19 PM

coyotesub315

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/21/2011
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Wow! Maybe you should stop drinking the kool aid for a bit.

It doesn't take thousands of people involved in vast conspiracy, it just takes a small group willing to abuse the system.

As far as doing away with the 4th amendment, not sure which attack manual you pulled that out of, but this is not a privacy issue. You may have noticed that you have to be registered to vote? So please keep the objections realistic?

As far as all the frothing at the mouth about Conservatives, the conservative politicians are just as crooked as the liberal ones.

And as to where I heard about that voter fraud in Troy, it was on my local news.

I am really sick of seeing this kind of reply. I don't care that you disagree with me, that is fine. But state your own position without having to go off the deep end. And it would be nice if, every time some one posted sort of evidence in reply to someone requesting more proof, that the reply not be "ok, so there is some...but you haven't proven it to a high enough standard."

Can we just have a nice, intelligent discussion?

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 25

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 12:33:13 PM

wittynamehere

Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As we've always known it is consrvatives casting ballots for dead people.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/election_law_experts_say_james_okeefe_accomplices_could_face_charges_over_voter_fraud_stunt.php

Your labelling and "I have a better label than this guy, and about 1/3 the members of this website" aside, I think they did an excellent job of exposing the fact that the election process in NH is easily tampered with. Sometimes it takes illegal acts to bring about positive change, and since no harm was actually done (no victim, no crime), these people should be commended. The voting system is just as important as your right to vote. If you have the right to vote but the voting system is fraudulent, what do you actually have? These guys are heroes.

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Post #: 26

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 12:38:49 PM

wittynamehere

Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I say who I am and where I live. I should be allowed my privacy under the 4th Amendment.

It's cute that you think you have a right to privacy under the current laws, or that the Constitution and other documents are upheld whatsoever in the USA. But that's not the case.
You're right that you SHOULD be allowed your privacy, but currently, you aren't. In fact you don't even have Habeas corpus anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Last I checked the good citizens of this country when the founding fathers were still alive didnt need photo ID cards to prove they were who they said they were when voting.

And they bought and sold black people all day long, doesn't mean it applies today.

Get with the 90s, joether! Times have changed.

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Post #: 27

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 1:23:25 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

If you knew the back story here,it might help.

The "reporter" doing "investigation" is part of the right-wing effort seeking to make it harder/impossible for millions of Americans to vote.

Using a few examples here and there, to deny millions of poor,elderly,remote and infirmed Americans their voting rights.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/392598/july-20-2011/voter-id-laws

South Carolina has 178 thousand voters who doen`t have a photo ID.All of a sudden we`re telling those folks they can`t vote because 4 out of nine and a half million votes were fraudulent?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/13/2012 1:30:46 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 6:57:01 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
Wow! Maybe you should stop drinking the kool aid for a bit.

Funny that you put this here, but further down, demand that I be objective in the reply. That's being rather hypocritical. Playing little games like this underminds your credibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
It doesn't take thousands of people involved in vast conspiracy, it just takes a small group willing to abuse the system.

How do you know? Have you tried doing the task yourself? Can you give all of us a first hand viewpoint on whether it does indeed take a few thousand or not? Since in every case that has come up, the fraud rate was so low as to be irrelevant in the long run. Most states have a set of rules/regulations in place that if two candidates are within 'X' votes, a more indepth counting takes place. It doesnt happen to often and its pretty hard to predict. And in most contests the difference between the two top candidates was beyond a 3-5% margin of error. In addition, a few people will risk some serious jail time on a election that no one knows the final out come on is a HUGE gamble. Do you typically gamble the rest of your life as a free person on a one in thirty million chance of your guy/gal winning?

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
As far as doing away with the 4th amendment, not sure which attack manual you pulled that out of, but this is not a privacy issue. You may have noticed that you have to be registered to vote? So please keep the objections realistic?

quote:

4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If a police officer stops you while your walking down the road and demands your ID, its perfectly legal to ask why this action needs to be taken. In a voting station, if you state who you are and where you live that should be sufficient. If the police believe you are not, that would imply probable cause......at which point....it would be reasonable to ask for a photo ID. The notion of 'papers' is the old school defination of a driver's license and/or state ID. Back in 1790, they didnt have automobiles for one very obvious reason. Why should citizens have to 'Show your papers'? Has the United States gone the way of Nazi Germany? Or the USSR?

If I am already registered to vote, that would imply all this information was checked and verified before the date of the election. So why would I need to re-verify who I am and where I live a second time? Do you know how many people could pass themselves off as me? Less then 0.01% of this planet. Plus they would have to get all the other characteristics of myself AND be able to pass the folks that know me on a first name basis. Good luck!

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
As far as all the frothing at the mouth about Conservatives, the conservative politicians are just as crooked as the liberal ones.

I don't consider Rep. Michelle Bachmann crooked, I consider her insane! Mr. Santorium isnt crooked, he's hell bent on turning the USA into a theocracy. Mr. Perry would like to have us all dumbed down to his level. Rep. Ron Paul isn't crooked, he's totally for a 'two term limit' policy; been saying that now for eight terms in office! And Mitt Romney? Ok, that guy *IS* a crook (but hey, I'm a Masshole, what would I know about Mitt Romney (rolls eyes)). I have my issues with President Obama, but he still seems the best choice for the country. He's more than four times as intelligent as all the GOP Candidates. He behaves 'presidential' which is more than I can say for the GOP wannabes. He takes his 'family values' to heart rather than wear it on his sleeve. I can accept if you do not agree with him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
And as to where I heard about that voter fraud in Troy, it was on my local news.

And how did you check to see if the information was both valid and factual? Did you speak to the person(s) and/or their lawyer(s) regarding whether or not they are innocent? Do you immediately assume the person(s) caught are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law? Just because someone is arrested for a crime does not always mean they are guilty of said crime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315
I am really sick of seeing this kind of reply. I don't care that you disagree with me, that is fine. But state your own position without having to go off the deep end. And it would be nice if, every time some one posted sort of evidence in reply to someone requesting more proof, that the reply not be "ok, so there is some...but you haven't proven it to a high enough standard."

And WHO started off with the kool aid bit?

The evidence so far that states that voter fraud is both massive and out of control is flimsy at best. Republicans brought this forward given that those that are poor generally vote for the Democrats. That is the sad truth about the voter ID laws; they seek to undermind the democratic process that favors the wealthy over the poor. This isn't a class warfare issue so much as one of logistics. Some homeless guy gets beat up by a gang of youths. They take his identification a day before he can vote. So by no fault of his own, he cant vote in the election. Does that sound fair to you? It only has to happen ONCE for the law to be taken to court. You willing to gamble that there are no idealistic lawyers in this nation? Or egotistical lawyers willing to take the case if only to get their name in the history books? You watch, those voter ID laws will be over turned in the future.

Can we just have a nice, intelligent discussion?

(in reply to coyotesub315)

Post #: 29

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/13/2012 7:09:29 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I say who I am and where I live. I should be allowed my privacy under the 4th Amendment.

It's cute that you think you have a right to privacy under the current laws, or that the Constitution and other documents are upheld whatsoever in the USA. But that's not the case.
You're right that you SHOULD be allowed your privacy, but currently, you aren't. In fact you don't even have Habeas corpus anymore.

My state is pretty liberal, the chance of a voter ID law being made is pretty remote right now. Besides, it only takes one case that goes to the US Supreme Court to overturn all that 'hard work'. If you believe I am not who I say I am and/or live where I say I live, its up to YOU to present the burden of evidence. You willing to do that, knowing that you'll not only be proven wrong but sued in the court for damages?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Last I checked the good citizens of this country when the founding fathers were still alive didnt need photo ID cards to prove they were who they said they were when voting.

And they bought and sold black people all day long, doesn't mean it applies today.

Get with the 90s, joether! Times have changed.

How about you get with the new millennium? We are twelve years into now. We even voted in a black guy for President of the United States of America! So if one section of the US Consitituion doesnt apply (per your arguement) than we (as the goverment) can ignore the rest of it? I'd like to see you take those firearms from the die hard gun nuts. I believe removing slavery in practice was a good thing for the nation as a whole. I do not see a voter ID law as being to the benefit of America.

< Message edited by joether -- 1/13/2012 7:11:21 PM >

(in reply to wittynamehere)

Post #: 30

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 2:29:56 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Given we've seen PROVEN tampering with voting at the SERVER AND NETWORK LEVEL, it makes me wonder why everyone who is busy screaming for voter ID cards, are just happening to forget about the real, proven, exploited vulnerabilities which are hundreds-of-thousands of times more critical.

When you're changing the results IN THE DATABASE, who the fuck cares about what people are putting in on the front-end?

And, as a professional with subject matter expertise in technology risk management, it really makes me wonder why these nitwits are screaming about a very tiny risk, when there's this risk which can render EVERY VOTE IRRELEVANT.

I mean, why not just fill up the database with the pre-determined result, and laugh about all the people worrying about what's happening in the polls?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 1/14/2012 2:38:13 AM >

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(in reply to joether)

Post #: 31

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 6:20:30 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Given we've seen PROVEN tampering with voting at the SERVER AND NETWORK LEVEL, it makes me wonder why everyone who is busy screaming for voter ID cards, are just happening to forget about the real, proven, exploited vulnerabilities which are hundreds-of-thousands of times more critical.

When you're changing the results IN THE DATABASE, who the fuck cares about what people are putting in on the front-end?

And, as a professional with subject matter expertise in technology risk management, it really makes me wonder why these nitwits are screaming about a very tiny risk, when there's this risk which can render EVERY VOTE IRRELEVANT.

I mean, why not just fill up the database with the pre-determined result, and laugh about all the people worrying about what's happening in the polls?

Well you would need to spend some time laying the ground work so that no one believes the entry and exit polling as well as making sure that no one anywhere can audit their part of the system. Wait a minute....

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 32

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 7:26:31 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Given we've seen PROVEN tampering with voting at the SERVER AND NETWORK LEVEL, it makes me wonder why everyone who is busy screaming for voter ID cards, are just happening to forget about the real, proven, exploited vulnerabilities which are hundreds-of-thousands of times more critical.

When you're changing the results IN THE DATABASE, who the fuck cares about what people are putting in on the front-end?

And, as a professional with subject matter expertise in technology risk management, it really makes me wonder why these nitwits are screaming about a very tiny risk, when there's this risk which can render EVERY VOTE IRRELEVANT.

I mean, why not just fill up the database with the pre-determined result, and laugh about all the people worrying about what's happening in the polls?

"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)

its been proven in many elections, kennedy, clinton, bush, locally in my county we had more voters than people in the county!

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Post #: 33

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 9:07:41 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

we had more voters than people in the county!

Absentee ballots can do that

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 34

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 10:45:14 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

So can "Just Making Up Numbers And Populating The Database"

They don't even bother counting votes anymore.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Vote fraud caught in the act. - 1/14/2012 2:43:05 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: coyotesub315

Wow! Maybe you should stop drinking the kool aid for a bit.

It doesn't take thousands of people involved in vast conspiracy, it just takes a small group willing to abuse the system.

As far as doing away with the 4th amendment, not sure which attack manual you pulled that out of, but this is not a privacy issue. You may have noticed that you have to be registered to vote? So please keep the objections realistic?

As far as all the frothing at the mouth about Conservatives, the conservative politicians are just as crooked as the liberal ones.

And as to where I heard about that voter fraud in Troy, it was on my local news.

I am really sick of seeing this kind of reply. I don't care that you disagree with me, that is fine. But state your own position without having to go off the deep end. And it would be nice if, every time some one posted sort of evidence in reply to someone requesting more proof, that the reply not be "ok, so there is some...but you haven't proven it to a high enough standard."

Can we just have a nice, intelligent discussion?

Good luck with that!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to coyotesub315)

Post #: 36

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