Scottish independence? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 7:29:41 PM)

This is the first I've heard about this. Could some of our UK posters expand a little?

Scotland's first minister promises to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. Could it really succeed?



Hillwilliam -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 7:45:14 PM)

Has William Wallace returned?



Owner59 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 8:49:04 PM)

From Wikki:

Potential consequences

Under the current system of devolution for Scotland, the Scottish Government does not have within its remit the power to declare independence from the United Kingdom, with the constitution being a reserved matter for the supreme legislative body in the UK, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, based in Westminster, London.[5] According to the Scottish Government, the proposed referendum is therefore an "advisory referendum on extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament",[21] whose result "will have no legal effect on [the United Kingdom]."[20]

According to the Scottish Government's consultation paper published on 25 February 2010, if there was a 'yes, yes' outcome of the poll, then following the "necessary negotiations" between the Scottish and UK governments, "it would then be for the Scottish and UK Parliaments to act on the expressed will of the Scottish people".[20] If there was a yes vote for Proposal 1 (further devolution) but not Proposal 2 (powers for independence), then depending on the measures voted for, they would be implemented by Order in Council, Sewel Motion, or a combination of the two.[20]

With regard to legislative competence, the Scottish Government claims that Scottish Parliamentary consideration of a referendum bill, in its proposed draft form, is legitimate, under the built in flexibility of the Scotland Act 1998.[20] The government announce however on the 10th of January that, as the Constitution is in no way a devolved issue, the Scottish Government would have no legislative competence in passing any form of referendum on the subject and as such offered to temporarily provide them with the powers to do so to prevent a protracted legal battle over the issue.



popeye1250 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 9:44:52 PM)

"If it ain't Scot it's CRAP!!!"



Lucylastic -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 10:54:34 PM)

Its been wanted by a large number since I can remember, I must admit I havent kept up with it.

But they can promise what they want, thats what politicians do isnt it? to get elected?
its a promise..nothing more. we all know about breaking promises dont we??


we just had a similar promise....with the liberals promising to legalize marijuana
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iOoZtUvW1ROQAwsUl58vK5Q67S_w?docId=CNG.c1184254edd383d7d2c924e809252cb5.391
will they do it?
Will they buggery.
Ima wait till its done before I would consider voting for them again.

Ploys, ploys, ploys. Scots/english history is full of violence, anger, rancour and hate
but I do love me some scotland



tazzygirl -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/15/2012 11:12:03 PM)

I am rather fond of a particular Scottish fella. [:D]



Anaxagoras -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 4:57:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I am rather fond of a particular Scottish fella. [:D]

Is it this man by any chance?

[image]http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simpsons-willie.jpg[/image]



Politesub53 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 4:59:53 AM)

Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish Nationalsit Party, has promised a referendum on independence. So far so good, but what he refuses to do is be honest with Scottish voters about how this will work. If we take currency as our first point, what is he proposing ? Scotland cant atsy in the pound and have an independent fiscal policy. They cant join the Euro for the same reason, so either way currency rules will be set elsewhere.

The health, education and policing services are subsidised by the rest of the UK, giving Scots a better service. How will Salmond finance any of this. The rest of the UK also bailed out the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) since this is a Scottish based bank, providing Scottish jobs, will the Scots have to pay back the bailout ? Who will pay for Scotlands armed forces ? Has Salmond pointed out being part of the UK gives Scotland a bigger international voice, such as more seats in the EU parliament. It may also mean we end up with a permanent border between England and Scotland which will have a massive effect on trade, more so if there are two currencies.

Finally, polls suggest he would lose a vote in Scotland anyway. Most English are indifferent, especially as Scots MPS can vote on issues affecting both Scotland and England, since England isnt devolved. English MPs only get to vote on English issues. Most people dont care much one way or the other, but seem to agree the average Scot will be worse off with full independence. My personal view is the UK is better off staying as the UK, even though England would benefit most from a complete split of the four nations.



TheHeretic -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 5:22:04 AM)

Thanks, Polite.



Politesub53 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 5:29:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Thanks, Polite.



You`re welcome.

A complete split holds so many complicated issues it is just impossible to fathom where to start.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 5:41:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish Nationalsit Party, has promised a referendum on independence. So far so good, but what he refuses to do is be honest with Scottish voters about how this will work. If we take currency as our first point, what is he proposing ? Scotland cant atsy in the pound and have an independent fiscal policy. They cant join the Euro for the same reason, so either way currency rules will be set elsewhere.

The health, education and policing services are subsidised by the rest of the UK, giving Scots a better service. How will Salmond finance any of this. The rest of the UK also bailed out the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) since this is a Scottish based bank, providing Scottish jobs, will the Scots have to pay back the bailout ? Who will pay for Scotlands armed forces ? Has Salmond pointed out being part of the UK gives Scotland a bigger international voice, such as more seats in the EU parliament. It may also mean we end up with a permanent border between England and Scotland which will have a massive effect on trade, more so if there are two currencies.

Finally, polls suggest he would lose a vote in Scotland anyway. Most English are indifferent, especially as Scots MPS can vote on issues affecting both Scotland and England, since England isnt devolved. English MPs only get to vote on English issues. Most people dont care much one way or the other, but seem to agree the average Scot will be worse off with full independence. My personal view is the UK is better off staying as the UK, even though England would benefit most from a complete split of the four nations.

I agree with your take on Alex Salmond. I don't know that much about the place anymore but Scotland would seem to benefit from being in the UK due to being part of a far larger market, and they also get equal levels (AFAIK) of representation at Westminister besides having their own parliament. I would disagree about the currency though, and perhaps how absolute independence would necessarily have to be. Taking on the Euro wouldn't mean loosing their new found sovereignty (which I presume is part of their aspiration for independence) but its right to point out that if they joined they would have to give up some fiscal freedom, perhaps a fair bit if Merkel and Sarkozy have their evil way. Scotland might mint its own money but could link it to the British pound, and have a sort of semi-official dual currency situation. Decades ago Ireland also linked with the British pound which had advantages, much like having a common currency across Europe has today.



Moonhead -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 6:52:24 AM)

Though it might do your own party a favour in England at least: Scotland and Wales are pretty pro labour (when they're not being pro single issue nationalist hysteria, at least...)
[;)]



provfivetine -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 8:31:51 AM)

Good for them. As a Scottish national myself, I commend my brethren. Succession is always good!

Last time I was there (Summer '11) I found tremendous hostility towards multiculturalism. The Scots don't like how England is importing immigrants by the boatload and forcing integration on them. This, combined with hostility towards the UK currency/government, adds some fuel to fire.



Politesub53 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 9:14:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Though it might do your own party a favour in England at least: Scotland and Wales are pretty pro labour (when they're not being pro single issue nationalist hysteria, at least...)
[;)]



Indeed, could this be the reason Ed and Ed are aginst the idea. [;)]



Politesub53 -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 9:18:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

Good for them. As a Scottish national myself, I commend my brethren. Succession is always good!

Last time I was there (Summer '11) I found tremendous hostility towards multiculturalism. The Scots don't like how England is importing immigrants by the boatload and forcing integration on them. This, combined with hostility towards the UK currency/government, adds some fuel to fire.



Really ? Immigrants are being housed all over the UK as far as I can tell. The reason for this is to take the strain off of local councils, and therefore the local ratepayers. In the old days it would have been the respnisbility of Dover council to house everyone landing at Dover, and so on. I`m not at all sure there is any backlash againt the UK currency either. there hasnt been any talk of that in the media.



mnottertail -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 9:23:23 AM)

Well, see here Double Nowt 7.  Is the murmuring of Scottish independence really a posturing that is truely an expression of they want oooot of the EU?

(edit: I can spell truely, really; I can)



Ninebelowzero -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 9:50:18 AM)

Fisrtly as it stands today the vote would be to stay in the Union if voted in Scotland, if voted in England polls suggest it's so long & thanks for all the oil. Which is why Salmond wants to wait until 2014, the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn.
Secondly if all debts are written off then Scotland is a financial goer. With a few tweaks here & there.

Thirdly the |Scots don't hate being ruled from Westminster, they really hate being ruled by Tories it's the Thatcher legacy.

Finally as someone who lived & worked there as a proud Englishman. Culturally we are miles apart now, it's time for Scotland to go it alone & I wish them all the best. It will lead, within 5 Parliaments to the death of the Labour party in England, something which is quite worrying as I fear a one party state even if I tend to dress on the right.




mnottertail -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 9:55:05 AM)

Cor?  Its all that is it then?  Rest of you in compliance with Niners call on it?



Ninebelowzero -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 10:00:23 AM)

As an addendum I hope that if the Scots vote to stay in the Union then at least we get the West Lothian question answered finally.



mnottertail -> RE: Scottish independence? (1/16/2012 10:01:25 AM)

And what is the question regarding West Lothian?

Remember, this is a Yank based site, and our question would be what in the fuck IS a West Lothian, and would probably detract from the actual question, without explications.  



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