RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:12:15 PM)

Are the politicians being drug tested?




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:18:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
If you cant walk the walk, then why talk the talk? Its not his first time. Its only his first time getting caught. How many lives has he, or did he that night, put into jeopardy after smugly deciding welfare recipients were all these terrible drug users.


It sounds like he is very much "walking the walk," considering he is facing consequences for his actions. If he is facing the consequences, so should welfare recipients.

In reality, this whole thread is nothing but a red herring argument. Getting nailed for a DUI has nothing to do with his stance on drug testing for welfare recipients.




tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:20:21 PM)

Again, politicians are being paid out of the same coffers as welfare recipients. Are they being drug tested?




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:25:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Again, politicians are being paid out of the same coffers as welfare recipients. Are they being drug tested?


Again, red herring. The offense you brought up with your story was about alcohol, not drugs. One is legal, one is not. The illegal part of his involvement with alcohol is something for which he is facing consequences, as should those who have illegal involvement with drugs.

Another apples/oranges difference you're forgetting is that he works for his money. Welfare recipients don't.




tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:26:57 PM)

The illegal part was drinking and driving. Does he now get a pass because he was drinking something legally, yet drove afterwards?




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
The illegal part was drinking and driving. Does he now get a pass because he was drinking something legally, yet drove afterwards?


Did you intentionally ignore that part of my reply? He's already facing the consequences of the "illegal part." If he is, so should the welfare recipients.




tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:29:47 PM)

quote:

Another apples/oranges difference you're forgetting is that he works for his money. Welfare recipients don't


I dont believe its apples to oranges simply because he works. What of all those others who work for their paychecks yet get drug tested?

As Rich put it...

Pre-employment drug testing is pretty much the norm, random workplace screening is common and in a number of professions, drug testing is mandated by law.

So why arent our politicians held to the same standards they wish to hold others too?

Btw, Its taxpayer money they are spending to do these drug tests. So, yes, I do believe these questions are valid.




tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:30:59 PM)

quote:

Did you intentionally ignore that part of my reply? He's already facing the consequences of the "illegal part." If he is, so should the welfare recipients.


How many arent?




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I dont believe its apples to oranges simply because he works. What of all those others who work for their paychecks yet get drug tested?


You don't have to believe that's it's apples to oranges for it to be so. You're also "assuming" he isn't drug tested. Do you have definitive evidence that it's true?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So why arent our politicians held to the same standards they wish to hold others too?


Sounds to me like they are. When they are found to be doing illegal activity, they face the consequences.




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:36:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How many arent?


Don't know. I'm not psychic. Are you claiming to be? All the instances I recall of someone in office committing illegal acts (and in some cases acts that aren't illegal) faced some sort of consequence for it.




tazzygirl -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:50:49 PM)

Yes, after they were caught. Not through drug testing. Florida tried it, and it was a dismal failure which ended up costing the tax payers money.

Thus far, the Florida drug testing requirement has yielded only a 2 percent positive test result. That means two things for Florida residents:
* Most welfare applicants are, in fact, not illicit drug users, as is so often believed by the general public.
* Florida is now on the hook to reimburse those who did pass their drug tests. Again: How was this move a money-saving measure?
If an applicant does show up positive on a drug test, they'll either be denied benefits for six months or be expected to undergo a drug treatment program.


Was this worth the cost?

2% at, I believe, 40 a pop.

So he treats everyone like criminals, and yet expects a pass until he is "caught"? To me, it would be the same as a crack user getting caught with the pipe in his mouth. Not this... this is a waste of money and something even our politicians wont go for.

As to your question about politicians being drug tested.

http://www.infoplease.com/cig/supreme-court/testing-politicians-for-drugs.html

Now, keep in mind, this was in Georgia, the same state as the Rep who was arrested.

Libertarians had their first win in the Supreme Court when they successfully sued to strike down a Georgia law that required all politicians be tested for drugs before being allowed on the ballot. The Supreme Court ruled this law unconstitutional on April 15, 1997.

Walker Chandler, who ran for lieutenant governor in Georgia in 1994, took and passed the required drug test, but filed suit questioning the validity of the law. The legal battle took three years to get to the Supreme Court. Chandler lost twice before making it to the Supreme Court, once in the district court and once in the 11th Circuit Court.

The Supreme Court finally agreed to hear his appeal on January 14, 1996. His argument was based on the Fourth Amendment's prohibition against “unreasonable” searches. Chandler believed there should be some limit to “suspicionless drug testing.” The Supreme Court agreed with him voting 8 to 1 to declare Georgia's law unconstitutional.

“By requiring candidates for public office to submit to drug testing, Georgia displays its commitment to the struggle against drug abuse. The suspicionless tests, according to respondents, signify that candidates, if elected, will be fit to serve their constituents free from the influence of illegal drugs. But Georgia asserts no evidence of a drug problem among the State's elected officials, those officials typically do not perform high risk, safety sensitive tasks, and the required certification immediately aids no interdiction effort. The need revealed, in short, is symbolic, not 'special,' as that term draws meaning from our case law … where the risk to public safety is substantial and real, blanket suspicionless searches calibrated to the risk may rank as 'reasonable'—for example, searches now routine at airports and at entrances to courts and other official buildings … But where, as in this case, public safety is not genuinely in jeopardy, the Fourth Amendment precludes the suspicionless search, no matter how conveniently arranged.”


So, why are welfare recipients treated differently?




tweakabelle -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 10:58:13 PM)

quote:

The rational behind drug testing welfare recipients (and I'm using "welfare" specifically to the AFDC programs as they exist here) is not about people getting high on tax dollars. Pre-employment drug testing is pretty much the norm, random workplace screening is common and in a number of professions, drug testing is mandated by law. If the goal of these programs is to not only to issue poverty maintenance checks, but to assist the needy in getting onto their own feet, it is simply counter-productive not to impose drug testing there.


At this point we've probably gone way off thread. So, hopefully, this is my last word on the matter.

What you have argued above all sounds exactly like "Big Government" intruding into people's personal spaces and lifestyles to me - isn't "social engineering" your preferred term for this? You're clearly advancing an economic argument - how do you account for the failure of "market forces" here? Why can't the wonderful market sort it out without resorting to the heavy stick of government rules and regulations?

I was under the impression you opposed this sort of thing ......




tweakabelle -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 11:20:14 PM)

quote:

So, why are welfare recipients treated differently?


They're being punished.

Punishing unpopular minorities has long been a staple of populist politics, especially Right wing populism. All the more so when the politicians can present an image of protecting the public's money and so steal the high moral ground. They have the happy side effect of directing the public gaze where the politicians want it directed, and away from those areas the politicians prefer to keep hidden from public attention.

In my observation, such fraudulent antics are little more than contests to see who can be the most hypocritical.




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/15/2012 11:46:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Was this worth the cost?


I think any program aimed at keeping honest those who live off the government is worth the cost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So he treats everyone like criminals,


That's if you assume a drug test, by its nature, is only used on criminals. I've been tested for every job I've ever held. I'm not a criminal. And I don't feel the testing treats me like one. The testing is just part of the deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
and yet expects a pass until he is "caught"?


It's not "getting a pass" until he does something illegal. That's what we call obeying laws. When he broke the law, he was charged with a crime. One can't be charged with breaking the law until they break it. A drug test is not a charge of an offense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
To me, it would be the same as a crack user getting caught with the pipe in his mouth.


Not even remotely the same. Crack is illegal. Having it is illegal, buying it is illegal, selling it is illegal, using it is illegal. Alcohol is legal. You can legally sell it, buy it, own it and drink it. It's only when you drive under its effects that a crime occurs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So, why are welfare recipients treated differently?


Because they are getting a handout from the government. If you do not earn what is handed to you, you are subject to the conditions under which they choose to give it.

If you asked me for $100, I can tell you that I will give it to you only under certain conditions. If you do not adhere to those conditions, I can choose not to give you the money.




DarqueMirror -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:02:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
They're being punished.


Explain please how a test is "punishment." I've been tested for every job I've ever held. Have I been "punished" for working all these years?




TheHeretic -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:05:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The rational behind drug testing welfare recipients (and I'm using "welfare" specifically to the AFDC programs as they exist here) is not about people getting high on tax dollars. Pre-employment drug testing is pretty much the norm, random workplace screening is common and in a number of professions, drug testing is mandated by law. If the goal of these programs is to not only to issue poverty maintenance checks, but to assist the needy in getting onto their own feet, it is simply counter-productive not to impose drug testing there.


At this point we've probably gone way off thread. So, hopefully, this is my last word on the matter.

What you have argued above all sounds exactly like "Big Government" intruding into people's personal spaces and lifestyles to me - isn't "social engineering" your preferred term for this? You're clearly advancing an economic argument - how do you account for the failure of "market forces" here? Why can't the wonderful market sort it out without resorting to the heavy stick of government rules and regulations?

I was under the impression you opposed this sort of thing ......



I was dead on topic with my post, Tweak. Of course, the leap of connection Tazzy is trying to make does leave a lot of vast open air in the range of discussion.





TheHeretic -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:08:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

So, why are welfare recipients treated differently?


They're being punished.

Punishing unpopular minorities has long been a staple of populist politics, especially Right wing populism. All the more so when the politicians can present an image of protecting the public's money and so steal the high moral ground. They have the happy side effect of directing the public gaze where the politicians want it directed, and away from those areas the politicians prefer to keep hidden from public attention.

In my observation, such fraudulent antics are little more than contests to see who can be the most hypocritical.



It is punishment to be treated like everyone else?




tweakabelle -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:27:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
They're being punished.


Explain please how a test is "punishment."

If you read the rest of my post you wouldn't need to ask this. If you still don't get it, check out the word; "scapegoat".


quote:

I've been tested for every job I've ever held. Have I been "punished" for working all these years?

I've never been drug tested in my life in relation to employment or anything else. It is most certainly not the norm here (Australia). The only area I know where random drug tests are performed here is on serving police. That one area aside, I've never heard of it here.

As we seem to get by fine without it, I question the value and efficacy of compulsory drug testing in the first place. It seems like a gross invasion of privacy to me. Given the size of the drug market in the US, I will need some very compelling evidence before agreeing this policy has any discernible, let alone desirable effect.




Lucylastic -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:35:38 AM)

its an expectation when you are employed, YOU know this going in.

To suddenly force people to be tested AND PAY for the privilege of being subjected to miserly morality?
WHY are they being suspected of doing criminal activities???? just because they have the nerve to be poor? ah and then having to pay for it out of their subsistence level payments, and if found to have a drug positive will loose all benefits without the ability to appeal (or at least have to spend money to fight a decision? and go thru the indignity of having to prove it was a bad test?
Without knowing the fact that the cases being thrown out of court left right and center, for being unconstitutional
Also less than 2.2 % of drug tests already done on the poor, were found to be positive?
Let alone the payoff to the reps whose "buddies" run the testing companies..yeah its completely fair.



Tweak
Its basically because people like Rep. Kip Smith are small minded, hypcritical and ignorant assholes, who they think they can legislate what they want.... to be plain spiteful and shame thepoor and sick.. because they didnt have what it takes to be "successful".
If he kills someone one day, no one will care amongst his supporters.
this thread is all you need to read to see it




tweakabelle -> RE: Glass houses and stones don't mix (1/16/2012 12:44:33 AM)

quote:

Tweak
Its basically because people like Rep. Kip Smith are small minded, hypcritical and ignorant assholes, who they think they can legislate what they want.... to be plain spiteful and shame thepoor and sick.. because they didnt have what it takes to be "successful".
If he kills someone one day, no one will care amongst his supporters.
this thread is all you need to read to see it


That is precisely the impression I am gaining Lucy. We have some similar types here, and no doubt you have them in Canada too.

Bitter twisted shits who can only hold it together if they have someone further down the ladder than themselves to kick and hate. Sad pathetic creatures one and all.




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