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How do you know if - 1/17/2004 10:41:23 PM   
MistressAnnie


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		How do you know if a sub is actually a sub and not just a guy hopeing to get laid with some wild kinky sex?? I almost meet a guy I have been messageand talking on the phone with and the first thing he wanted to know if I wanted him to bring his bag of toys!! Then he wanted to talk about the sexy things we could do. I am very new but it is my understanding that these first meeting are for finding out if you are interested in beginning a relationship not having sex and demostrating your "skills"?? I am very new so help me out here?? Plus when we were supposed to have our first meeting he not only was late but was over an hour late when he finally called and said he had been tied up at work, then he needed another hour to shower and meet me.. Then he got rude and dominating to me because I was unhappy, especially since I was out of town on a business trip and left waiting in my hotel for 2 hours without being feed. Then had the nerve to say he felt like he was being used for a free meal!!! Ok I can tell from my message I am answering my own question but how do you learn these things before wasting your time?? Thanks
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: How do you know if - 1/17/2004 11:18:38 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Annie,
It seems to me that the fact that all he seemed interested in from the beginning was "kinky sex" should have been your tip off that this sub wasn't what you were looking for. I wouldn't have even met with this sub.
You stated that you were new to this. I think that allowed him to dictate what happened between you two. He seemed to be the one in control. You should be the Dominant. If he is truly sub, he will accept his place. I don't think he did.
Sometimes you just need to learn from experience. I doubt this will happen to you next time. Take care.

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 1:06:07 AM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

You should be the Dominant. If he is truly sub, he will accept his place. I don't think he did.


For me, personally, unless and until I've negotiated such a relationship with someone, whether I'm *considering* it or not, everyone gets treated equally. I don't think that just because someone identifies as submissive that that means s/he should, by default, submit to someone that declares him/herself to be dominant, even if that's the direction the intereaction seems to be heading in. It would just never work for me.

Especially with someone I've never met face to face, where I've had a chance to assess the chemistry and the energy, I don't think roles would even come into play. "His place"? Unless they had already agreed to a power imbalance, I think his place is equivalent to hers.

Many people who identify as submissive are rather dominant in their day to day lives, with everyone other than the person or people that they've chosen to submit to. (Ghads, that grammar sounds awful, but it's 4 am and I"m too tired to reword it.) Many people choose to submit during a scene, or for specified lengths of time, and I wouldn't expect that person to take a submissive role outside of those agreed upon terms.

That doesn't address the original question at all, I know, but EStrict's statement just sort of triggered a little trip up onto the soapbox.

As for the initial question, "How do you know if a sub is actually a sub and not just a guy hopeing to get laid with some wild kinky sex??", I think only the two people involved in the interaction get to make that determination, because the words mean something different to everyone. What may be the ideal partner for one person could very well be totally wrong for someone else, yet the role wouldn't necessarily change. For some people, wanting kinky sex is a subordinate or submissive role is qualification enoug for the label. For others it isn't. It looks like Annie is one of the people that wouldn't be satisfied with that, so perhaps this individual was a bad match. That doesn't mean he's not submissive, just that he's not the right submissive *for her*

-- Sherri

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 1:25:12 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I can appreciate what you are saying Sherri, but if a sub would have acted in the manner that this sub did, I wouldn't have stood for it. Annie even stated that he began acting rude and dominant towards her. She should have put her foot down and put him in his place. He was being disrespectful towards her. If that happens again, I don't think she will react in the same manner. It isn't even about being a Domme, she was being treated rudely. She should have done something about it.
And it is possible that he was just the wrong sub for her, but I still feel that he was just looking for some kinky play. And we all learn to recognize those signs eventually.

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 1:55:03 AM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I can appreciate what you are saying Sherri, but if a sub would have acted in the manner that this sub did, I wouldn't have stood for it.


My point is that if a *person* had acted in that manner, I wouldn't have stood for it, regardless of role. The role is irrelevant, from my perspective. Until they've negotiated a power exchange, he's not expected to be submissive to her, is he?

quote:


Annie even stated that he began acting rude and dominant towards her. She should have put her foot down and put him in his place.



Just what is "his place" if they havent' negotiated a power exchange and are simply two people meeting to see if there's any potential for things to progress in some fashion?

quote:


It isn't even about being a Domme, she was being treated rudely. She should have done something about it.



She was attempting to judge his submissiveness based on his manners then? Again, I think his chosen role is irrelevant , and I certainly don't condone *anyone* being rude, regardless of the labels they choose for themselves. It sounds to me like the guy was an inconsiderate jerk, but that doesn't mean he's not submissive (according to some people's definitions).



quote:

And it is possible that he was just the wrong sub for her, but I still feel that he was just looking for some kinky play.


For *some* people "kinky play" IS submission. *shrug* And that's just fine for them, but it would mean s/he isn't a good match for someone like you or Annie.

What I've seen over several years is the terms "dominant" and "submissive" become the defaults. Many people who aren't really into d/s use these terms interchangably with "sadist" and "masochist", or "top" and "bottom". I get asked constantly if I"m "dom" or "sub", and when I explain that I'm primarily a sadomasichist the person generally says "well, yeah, that's what I mean". It certainly makes it difficult to communicate, when the definitions of the terms used have morphed so significantly and when people can't agree about what the words even mean.

These days I mostly just tell people I'm a Sherri, and a damned good one. That's really all I need to be. I don't fit neatly into any particular labelled box, and I'm not going to try to.

-- Sherri

< Message edited by SherriA -- 1/18/2004 4:57:01 AM >

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 1:58:14 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressAnnie

How do you know if a sub is actually a sub and not just a guy hopeing to get laid with some wild kinky sex??




You can't always tell (at least I can't). I'm sure I've probably assumed thus with someone who perhaps was not motivated simply by the carnal. I've also met those who presented quite well online or in writing and waited until the meet to try to control the interaction or change the discussed terms. I've said elsewhere, all I have any real control over is me. I choose what I let into my life and thereby I accept the risks and the responsibility to minimize those risks.

So I set significant hurdles and choose to believe that an unwillingness to jump through those hoops simply to get my attention is an early indication that other tasks that were not so enjoyable would also be met with the same lack of attention. In short, if you half ass your approach I will assume you are a half ass and I will probably not respond or my response will be brief.

Anybody who approaches me would be well advised to find ANYTHING to talk to me about except sex and play. I bring that up if and when I have an interest. I understand that you may be new and very excited at the prospect of meeting someone who doesn't think you are abnormal for wanting these things. I'm willing to make it very clear that I prefer to initiate any such conversations, once; the second time is an indication that my preferred methods are not coming first. Red Flag.

Rude is rude, whether it's within a D/s context or not. Rudeness is met with closure. NEXT!

ANYBODY who thinks that being upset is a good enough reason to abandon genteel interactions, integrity and/or commitments needs a therapist, not a kink buddy. RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

The proper response to "should I bring my toys to our first meeting?" is "When did I ever suggest to you that I had any interest in you beyond our coming meet? I've yet to be dazzled."

Go prepared (and very willing) to buy your own meal/drinks. Don't assume they will and if the interaction isn't going well end it, pay for your tab and take your leave. The end, no muss no fuss.

See, I would have waited 20 minutes, then I would have ordered my dinner, and when he called my response would have been "well, I'm finishing up my dinner and about to have coffee. If you can get here before I have my coffee then you can make a suggestion about how you might like to continue the evening. I suggest you grab a sandwich on your way as you've missed dinner. If you are not here by the time I finish my coffee I am going to pay my tab and move along. I will not do this again." Then I would have done just that.

But what do I know?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 2:47:37 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Just a few thoughts, both Sherri, Suz, and Estring have very good points all around.

Suz is quite right - rude is rude. If the person (Dominant or submissive, doesn't matter) cannot demonstrate basic courtesy, manners, and follow through with obligations on a first date - why would you expect any better in the future? If I show up two hours late to a job interview, and snarl and sneer at the person doing the interview, I certainly wouldn't expect to get the job.

Nothing in the lifestyle (that I have experienced) condones rude, thoughtless, or poor manners in vanilla situations. Don't be surprised to find men and women (Dominants and submissives alike) who ask 'should I bring my bag' as many who use personal ads aren't exactly looking for long term, romantic relationships. A few warning signs are:

Certain times you can call - if the person says you should not call them after six PM due to (fill in the blank) or they will not give you a home phone number, take it as a warning sign. The reason may be innoculous, but taken in context, it could be an indication that the person isn't single

Early discussions on intimate preferences - granted most of us are here looking for others who share our kink. If you're looking for a play partner, or an occasional lover, that's great - be honest about it, and demand others be honest about it as well. Not everyone feels the same way about sex, of course. Usually I bring the topic of tastes, kinks, and interests early on, as I believe my own to rest squarely in the 'extreme' zone, and I don't wish for a woman to be shocked if I am to mention (two months later) that I plan to do a play-rape scenerio, and bring a knife and six of my best guy friends along for the show. There is no 'set' rule as to how soon, is too soon - other then your instinct. If it feels rushed or pushy, tell him/her to back off. If they dont, don't meet em. There's simply too many other potentially good people out there.

Money - This is a VERY tricky subject, and I bring it up because it can be a real headache online. If you're talking to someone who would love to meet, but gosh 400$ is just too much for them to pay to fly/drive to see you, then maybe meeting is simply too expensive a venture for this person. Again, no hard and fast rules here - but be wary, as some of the con artists online have been doing this for years, virtually unstoppable, as there's nothing 'illegal' about asking someone online for money to help pay for an emergency surgery for blah blah blah when they're really going to go partying with the cash you give them. For my part, I tend to take a woman to a resturant for a first date, or offer to cook at my home if she's so inclined (and we both feel comfortable - this can be a big no no as well.) I generally expect to pay for the first date, within reason, and if I can't afford a night painting the town red, I am up front about it. A date doesn't have to cost 200$ for fine dining and dancing. Ultimately, expect to pay your way, and when someone asks you to pay for them - BE CAREFUL.

Prior Relationships - this can be a very touchy subject, but nobody knows what kind of person you're about to date, better then that person! Ask about their last couple girlfriends/boyfriends. If they get touchy on the subject, I suggest being cautious - it can be a sign that the relationship either didn't end, or it didn't end the way they wished it to. Trust your instincts, but don't give an interrogation either. If their last significant other was three years ago, yet the person is still sighing about how perfet it all was and how she still bakes his favorite cookies on his birthday, be cautious.

Drugs, Drinks, and Safe Sex - TALK ABOUT IT!! ASK about their tobacco, and drug habits. Ask how much they like to drink. YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS STUFF. As if they practice safe sex (if the conversations have included an element of sex) and make your own opinions clear on it!! I am not trying to judge others for their lifestyle choices - but I will make it clear that these are important choices that should be discussed in the context of a new relationship.

Other Romantic Interests - it's simple, ask if they have a girlfriend/boyfriend already. On a first meeting, there shouldn't be any expectation of exclusivity, but if the person's saying that they were dating a man/woman for five years, and have taken a month's break to explore - you should know this. Also, the rules in BDSM and D/s tend to be different from vanilla, so ask about polyarmorous relationships (other partners/lovers.) Ask if they expect fidelity or monogamy, and tell them your views on this too.

There are certainly dozens and dozens of other issues that are all pertinent to a first meeting of course, and my advice is my own - I don't expect others to find it answering all, or even any questions. The best resource for finding the right person, is you. If it feels right, roll with it - with your eyes wide open.

Happy hunting!

Stephan

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 7
I agree whole heartedly - 1/18/2004 2:56:24 AM   
MasterV


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Status: offline 		I agree

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 5:38:34 AM   
passionateslave


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/17/2004
From: Ottawa, Ontario
Status: offline 		Dear Mistress Annie; After all that I have heard it seems that you are actually more submissive then dominant. You were trying so badly to please this man and he abused you. You knew that just waiting for him was humiliating and a put down yet you still waited. You did what ONLY A GOOD SUB WOULD DO. You waited because you got GREAT PLEASURE from being put down and although you complain your actions speak loudly. To say the least any sub or slave would see that you are never the one to take control and would never return. This is only an observation and perhaps I am dead wrong. sincerely passionateslave

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 6:44:45 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		My first observation is that You wear the name of Mistress
hence with in Our Alternative Lifestyle by having on a Name
of experiance this in its self can be decieving to sumone
whom has had pryor experiance with a Mistress. In Alternate
Lifestyles Proticals are earned and all tho We are all either
Dominant or suplicant there are spacific names that show
Our status and skills with in Our Society be it on the Dominant
side a Top or a Dom/Domme or a Master/Mistress or a Lord/Lady
or on the suplicant side either a bottom, submissive or slave.
My suggestion is to first learn the skills that a Mistress has
attained thru training under another Mistress whom will take
You under their wing and train You in the skills of a Mistress
befor simply taking a name because You feel it will gain You the
respect that You desire but have not obviously earned as yet thru
acts. Dominance comes naturally but becoming a Mistress is a
Trained Position that takes skills that You do not yet have. Just
My Opinion....




Attachment (1)

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 10:18:17 AM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

That doesn't address the original question at all, I know, but EStrict's statement just sort of triggered a little trip up onto the soapbox


UUhh,,, Sherri, how did I get in this? I haven't posted on this topic.

Sandy

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: How do you know if - 1/18/2004 10:46:39 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict

quote:

That doesn't address the original question at all, I know, but EStrict's statement just sort of triggered a little trip up onto the soapbox


UUhh,,, Sherri, how did I get in this? I haven't posted on this topic.

Sandy



In looking at the post and the threads I'd say that Sherri was tired (as she indicated in her post) and typed Estrict instead of Estring (who was a poster in the thread).

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to EStrict)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: How do you know if - 1/19/2004 12:41:57 AM   
MistressPheadra


Posts: 27
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		here is a great link with some advice to keep things like this from happening again.. but there is no real way to actually know without experiencing which can be a downfall at times.

http://www.houseofdesade.org/safety/offline.htm

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: How do you know if - 2/1/2004 11:36:19 AM   
domdiva40


Posts: 2
Joined: 2/1/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Annie, from the get go this guy seemed like an undesirable asshole or as you stated a man simply looking for kinky sex. Remember YOU are in charge and he plays by YOUR rules even before you meet. I email back in forth a time or two before talking on the phone. I always call them first and never give my number out until I have been serviced to my satisfaction at least 6 times. I could not imagine waiting 5 minutes let alone two hours!!! You are in control not the slave. The slave exists only serve your desires and nothing more. Live and learn.

< Message edited by domdiva40 -- 2/1/2004 11:37:09 AM >

_____________________________

Mistress Amanda

Too much of a good thing can be wonderful.

my pic is on my profile http://profiles.yahoo.com/domdiva40

(in reply to MistressPheadra)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: How do you know if - 2/1/2004 11:55:54 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It's simply for me .... I simply explain that on the first date I dont play..EVER.. I also always pay on the first date.. that way I dont feel like I have to stay if they are less than I expected. I can simply ask for the check.. thank the boy for his time and move forward. I rarely make the first date dinner though my Domme friends say well at least I got fed out of it. Nope.. coffee can last for hours or minutes.. and I never feel like Ive wasted my money and or time both of which are precious to me.


If they seem overly focused on what will be done.. they are simply DO ME boys.. what are you going to do to me when we meet.. and thats not what Im looking for.. If they are late and dont call you they have no manners something I require.. thanks but no thanks.. In this world of instant communication any excuse for leaving anyone waiting short of death, terrorist attack or 12 car pile up is nothing more than ignorant. Submissive males know how to treat their DOmmes, with deference, respect and the highest level of good manners. They open doors, they wait until asked before they get nekied, and they dont send you cock pictures .. just my humble opinion.

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: How do you know if - 2/2/2004 10:03:18 PM   
MistressAnnie


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I do agree with you I have not earned the right to call myself Mistress, but I had taken the name before I understood that. I make it clear in my profile and in messaging that I new and learning.

No, I was not more a sub, just confused to what happened due to my inexperience. I blew him off when he started his rude attitude. And sent him a chastising return email when I returned home. As a vanilla I would not have accepted his rude treatment, leaving a lady waiting in her hotel room for hours, without her meal or entertainment of a nice date.

Thirdly, I was out of town on business, sitting in a hotel, without a way to receive a message if there had been a problem. And I did leave and take myself to dinner and enjoyed myself visiting with the customers and workers there. It was his loss and my new knowledge gained.

And lastly, I am searching for a local Domme to take me under her wing, joining local groups and surfing the websites for information and friends to share the growth of the "me" emerging from a life of wife, mother, caregiver.... it takes time for the wings to emerge, as I am sure you have all had to go through at some time..... Thanks for the wise responses and advise.. My sub side is appreciative, my domme side is impatient... may the transformation begin...

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: How do you know if - 2/2/2004 10:17:48 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Annie, after reading your last post, I think you handled a bad meeting in the best way you could. The guy was a jerk.
I don't think you were being more sub than Dom as someone said. You were giving him the benefit of the doubt. You were being nice. But once you saw how he really was, you did what you needed to do.
Good luck in your searching.

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: How do you know if - 2/2/2004 10:39:32 PM   
MistressAnnie


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the encouragement, I am just unhappy because I did not get my way... LOL As it should be.... Annie

My favorite quote; You are where you want to be (then why the hell am I here).. Peace to all and to all a good sub!!

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: How do you know if - 2/3/2004 7:22:47 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Annie:

I wouldn't worry too much about others deciding you are 'more sub' or 'not dominant enough.' Nobody lives in your skin but you and nobody gets to decide who and what you are but you (ain't life GREAT that way?!?)

When I see others try to pigeon hole someone I usually feel sorry for them. My experience is that people who are quick to judge others usually are so judgemental of themself that they have to direct it out towards others to keep from seeing it in themself.

I think you did well (I now realize I did not mention that earlier and apologize for not doing so). There's really no cookie cutters out there and by and large it's about learning about yourself rather than learning blanket techniques for dealing with people.

Just keep trying things on to see what works for you and throwing away what doesn't fit. You'll find your stride.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to MistressAnnie)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: How do you know if - 2/11/2004 8:13:30 AM   
sosniagara


Posts: 31
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well if the sub (like me) has chosen to remain a virgin to better serve a Dom then you can bet that he's not interested in "other" activities. If not (which I suppose is usually the case) I'd be upfront and ask. If they give the answer your looking for - great - if they fall back on their word then imho they are not only a poor sub but a poor person as well.

_____________________________

http://www.myspace.com/sosniagara - Myspace profile

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 20
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