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Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/17/2012 1:28:17 PM   
hlen5


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xssve posted this on the Women and Fundemental religion thread.

I don't know how many from that thread viewed the 2 videos on the link. After it was posted, the conversation continued on in intellectual fashion.

I don't know what I would expect peoples' reaction to be, but it seemed so sterile just to continue with no other comment on the linked video. I started this thread to see what if anything people thought of the video.

Is it easier and more comfortable to talk about fundamentalism and misogyny than think of 4 million "missing" Indian girls?
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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/17/2012 5:32:49 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		Maybe they didn't look at the vids.  Until I got an improved internet connection (part repair, part upgrade), I wouldn't look at videos online because it was so time consuming.

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/17/2012 7:51:02 PM   
VioletGray


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Status: offline 		Ughh.. I don't know about them, but for me this would be a "rage trigger"

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/17/2012 9:16:00 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		I was just overwhelmed with the amount of hatred towards women displayed in the video.

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 1:31:11 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Im the same as VIolet, there ARE times I get too angry and emotional to post, this was one of them.
With the shit that goes on here, ... I was not prepared to dilute the importance of what is on the video with arguing with people who want to ignore it, deride it, or make it personal.
Now Im in a better place to add my horror:) and wanting to do something about it so bad it hurts.
You can read , you can hear, you can even see pictures, but Video adds a whole ton of layers tot he outrage

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 5:17:01 AM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		Anyone that's been on the Internet for a while that still clicks any link without a description is either a maso or an evolutionary dead end. That's why threads continue in an intellectual fashion after one posts video links and the like without giving adequate description to have people watching it. Aside from that, perhaps it's time to break down a simple little point on online intellectual masturbation (I've got very hairy lobes, apparently):

The ones that were going to have a useful or helpful emotional response are not here, as they're out doing something, going past "wanting" into "willing", past "so much it hurts" and into "it burns, but not as much as my wallet/feet did from getting here". Hopefully, those are also intellectual enough to have a plan by the time they get wherever they will be acting. Because the real problem with jihadists is that they blow shit up without a viable plan. It's a defective strategy, shown to fail for millenia. Three-four new messianic figures over that period, minimum, and they've not yet gotten it. Still blowing shit up. Doing something. Not thinking.

I am passion. I respect passion. I also understand some things about it.

One thing everyone should understand, is that passion works off what we're used to, what we think, and so forth; much of this will always be wrong, which is not to say that we shouldn't actually act on it, just that it still makes sense to refine our beliefs and intellectually explore whether or not we are right, so that we don't keep doing what we've always done: propagate neverending death and bloodshed and suffering because of the differences between us and the failure to respect each other before even considering if there is a way to do so. Perhaps we can't respect the people who do this. But let's make every effort. Else, we're just repeating history. Again.

And I'm not adverse to the admission that I need my intellect to respect these people.

My heart just doesn't go where it needs to go to make that attempt.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 5:31:53 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Please do not make an assumption that I havent done something outside of merely "talking about it"
Just because I am on my computer
Money, while important ..is NOT all.


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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 5:36:13 AM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		I didn't offer a description since what's in the link is pretty much the information I had, I was sort of expecting a rise in violent male vs. male activity, which tend to arise when the male to female ratio is distorted in favor of males: i.e., you get a lot of young men who can't  find wives, and they tend to act out, this is anticipated to occur in both China and India if the trend of sex selective abortion continues - the rape rate has been going up in India for example.

I think I actually followed this link from an article arguing with the ethics of telling the parents the sex of the child after the initial ultrasound, as certain subcultures almost automatically abort female fetus's.

Aswad is right about passion, but in this case, there are some solutions, google up microcredit, which is the practice of making small loans that can make a big difference under certain conditions.

Although currently that practice has run into difficulties, it has a proven track record of allowing women to leverage themselves into the real economy, are no longer forced to rely on their families or husbands, but create proactive alternatives for themselves, it's a situation that bears watching.

It's a sound practice in principle, but apparently, like everything else, it was going great until greed set in.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/18/2012 5:41:48 AM >

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 7:46:37 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Please do not make an assumption that I havent done something outside of merely "talking about it"


I didn't. I used your words to point something out.

I can see how what I said might seem so, however. My apologies for not being clearer.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 8:02:48 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		I re read, I see where I may have misread it... thankyou tho for the clarification

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 8:14:16 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I think I actually followed this link from an article arguing with the ethics of telling the parents the sex of the child after the initial ultrasound, as certain subcultures almost automatically abort female fetus's.


There's no ethical implication. Abortion is selection. Elective abortion is selection based on one's own criterion. If you tell women what criterion they can and cannot use, you're back to state-elected abortion (in effect, eugenics) and have taken away women's right to govern their own bodies. That accomplishes a huge leap backward in the same area as one is seeking to make an improvement (i.e. sex selective abortion reduction, due to the reasons for it, and its effects).

Choice means it's none of our business if the woman is having an abortion to survive, or cause the fortune cookie said she shouldn't take on any big projects now. It's also none of our business if she chooses based on knowledge of Down's, or whether she does so based on knowledge of gender, or even on the basis of thinking it doesn't look symmetrical on the ultrasound. It's either our choice, or her choice. And so long as it's her choice, it will be made for some reason, and for any given reason, there will be people who disagree with that reason; yet, they'll ultimately have no say over her body.

Sex selective abortions are pretty stupid and undesireable, as far as I'm concerned.

But it's not my body, so it's not my business.

quote:

microcredit, which is the practice of making small loans that can make a big difference under certain conditions.


This, on the other hand, can be my business if I so choose. I can choose to improve conditions in India without making other women's bodies my business. That, in turn, will lead to a shift in a direction that eventually dispenses with sex selective abortions. Which, ultimately, leads to my ethnically Indian countrymen ceasing the practice as well. They marry in their own culture, after all, not in mine (though they're welcome to), and that's where the issues around sex selective abortions arise, as has long been the case.

quote:

It's a sound practice in principle, but apparently, like everything else, it was going great until greed set in.


When something works well in theory and not in practice, the theory is not complete.

It is a common thing for well meaning theories to neglect to account for human nature, as if we could dispense with it. As far as I can tell, we can't. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't. So, it kind of goes back to the matter of: the practice is broken because it's based on an unsound principle. However, it's close. Close enough to salvage.

The alternative is to bring the women here, and leave the men behind; another kind of aid, but aid nonetheless, assuming they actually care to move in the first place. You still need to arrange transportation and visa and all that, or effect some political shift that cuts one or both of those requirements. And you'll expose yourself to female non-domestic terrorists, obviously. But it's probably more effective than aid abroad. And it still proceeds from the position of making an offer, and letting the realities of the situation sort itself out based on the choices people make when faced with the offer.

For some cultures, if you take away constraining circumstances, the cultures die out.

That's selection, which is natural, not intervention, which is redundant.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 12:48:09 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		I hear your points Aswad. You're right, there's hand-wringing and then there is action. Culture is important.

I believe expressing horror at burning an arranged marriage bride alive because the dowry agreed to previously isn't enough to buy a car isn't disparraging culture. It's expressing horror at the genocide of an entire gender.

You're right, there should be action rather than just saying "oh, that's too awful". What should I do? Go to India and start a safe house? Wouldn't that be some form of Western Imperialism in your eyes? Send money? More cultural interference?

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 2:21:00 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I think I actually followed this link from an article arguing with the ethics of telling the parents the sex of the child after the initial ultrasound, as certain subcultures almost automatically abort female fetus's.


There's no ethical implication. Abortion is selection. Elective abortion is selection based on one's own criterion. If you tell women what criterion they can and cannot use, you're back to state-elected abortion (in effect, eugenics) and have taken away women's right to govern their own bodies. That accomplishes a huge leap backward in the same area as one is seeking to make an improvement (i.e. sex selective abortion reduction, due to the reasons for it, and its effects).

Choice means it's none of our business if the woman is having an abortion to survive, or cause the fortune cookie said she shouldn't take on any big projects now. It's also none of our business if she chooses based on knowledge of Down's, or whether she does so based on knowledge of gender, or even on the basis of thinking it doesn't look symmetrical on the ultrasound. It's either our choice, or her choice. And so long as it's her choice, it will be made for some reason, and for any given reason, there will be people who disagree with that reason; yet, they'll ultimately have no say over her body.

Sex selective abortions are pretty stupid and undesireable, as far as I'm concerned.

But it's not my body, so it's not my business.

There is very much an ethical implication sex selection, it is simply silly to argue otherwise, gender is not a debilitating medical condition.

Google up the article and argue with them - I made no assessment at all of the ethical issues, other than to mention that there are ethical issues any way you slice it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

microcredit, which is the practice of making small loans that can make a big difference under certain conditions.


This, on the other hand, can be my business if I so choose. I can choose to improve conditions in India without making other women's bodies my business. That, in turn, will lead to a shift in a direction that eventually dispenses with sex selective abortions. Which, ultimately, leads to my ethnically Indian countrymen ceasing the practice as well. They marry in their own culture, after all, not in mine (though they're welcome to), and that's where the issues around sex selective abortions arise, as has long been the case.

think we finished that topic already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

It's a sound practice in principle, but apparently, like everything else, it was going great until greed set in.


When something works well in theory and not in practice, the theory is not complete.

It is a common thing for well meaning theories to neglect to account for human nature, as if we could dispense with it. As far as I can tell, we can't. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't. So, it kind of goes back to the matter of: the practice is broken because it's based on an unsound principle. However, it's close. Close enough to salvage.

The alternative is to bring the women here, and leave the men behind; another kind of aid, but aid nonetheless, assuming they actually care to move in the first place. You still need to arrange transportation and visa and all that, or effect some political shift that cuts one or both of those requirements. And you'll expose yourself to female non-domestic terrorists, obviously. But it's probably more effective than aid abroad. And it still proceeds from the position of making an offer, and letting the realities of the situation sort itself out based on the choices people make when faced with the offer.

For some cultures, if you take away constraining circumstances, the cultures die out.

That's selection, which is natural, not intervention, which is redundant.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Uh, it's like anything, if somebody can take advantage, they will, much depends on the faith of the lender in this case, meaning if someone here wanted to make a microloan in good faith at a reasonable rate of interest to an Indian woman so that she would not run the risk of turning to a loan shark, they could - unless micoloans of any sort become illegal, but as far as I know, you're still free to make personal loans, just sayin'.

Clearly what is broken here is whatever legal apparatus they have in place to enforce laws against usury, if there are any.

It's got nothing to do with gender selection, they're separate topics, not at all sure how you managed to combine them - related, but only peripherally.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/18/2012 2:23:04 PM >

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 2:55:40 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I hear your points Aswad. You're right, there's hand-wringing and then there is action. Culture is important.

I believe expressing horror at burning an arranged marriage bride alive because the dowry agreed to previously isn't enough to buy a car isn't disparraging culture. It's expressing horror at the genocide of an entire gender.

You're right, there should be action rather than just saying "oh, that's too awful". What should I do? Go to India and start a safe house? Wouldn't that be some form of Western Imperialism in your eyes? Send money? More cultural interference?


Any one who has visited India is immediately confronted with culture shock on a scale impossible to convey to those who haven't been there. Most (Western) people react to the in-your-face poverty by asking themselves: What can I do about it? That's the way I and everyone I know who's been there reacted.

The short answer, I'm sorry to say, is nothing. The problems are far too immense for any individual's actions to make a significant difference. Nor are they 'our' problems to solve - any solutions must come from within India, from the Indian peoples themselves.

This realisation opens up a possibility of doing something constructive, of doing something that can make a difference. We can support those organisations of Indians and Indian women in particular who are fighting for cultural change and practical change (eg education for girls) to end this quasi-genocide against girls and women.

A quick search of the net will supply websites and contact details for such organisations. Those organisations can tell us how we can most effectively support them. A relatively small amount for us - say $10 or $20 per month will make an amazing difference in India. Donations of unwanted clothes, household effects, school books and educational materials etc might make an amazing difference too. Moral and spiritual support does make an enormous difference to people struggling with these enormous issues on a daily basis. So there are some practical effective options open to us after all !

This links to the google page for Indian feminist organisations:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&cp=28&gs_id=33&xhr=t&q=india+feminist+organisations&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=india+feminist+organisations&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4c26890357e371b1&biw=1152&bih=742

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/18/2012 3:11:20 PM >

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 5:57:37 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		FR, regarding sex-selective abortions.

Some women choose to abort male children because the fetus is carrying a X-linked birth defect (for instance, fragile X syndrome, hemophilia, etc.)  If a woman doesn't have killer insurance, a stable relationship, a lot of money, etc. they may think it's better to have the abortion in the 2nd trimester.

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 7:53:57 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		That's very different than aborting a fetus merely because it's female.

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 8:32:06 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

It's expressing horror at the genocide of an entire gender.


I never objected to expressing horror.

Guess it's a cultural thing. Up here, we tend to keep our emotions private. Everyone knows being burned alive is horrible. I do respond emotionally to it. But expressing my emotions will do no good to anyone. And this isn't a support group for me to grieve every injustice done around the world, for they are innumerable. So, instead, I discuss the intellectual sides of the issues. That sometimes does some good.

quote:

What should I do? Go to India and start a safe house?


That would be an admirable display of individual conviction.

Ultimately, it will help few, but it may well help some.

quote:

Wouldn't that be some form of Western Imperialism in your eyes?


Please take this the right way: why should you care what I think?

That said, my main objection is to nations interfering in the affairs of other cultures.

quote:

Send money?


Microcredit has been mentioned as an option to help effecting changes.

Police and the like are an option to help closer to home. Or search for the rape thread where I mentioned nightwatchmen (I believe that's the translation I used), the arrangement in major cities here where people escort groups of women home from town to prevent sexual assault and afford a feeling of safety. It's helpful and useful, and it doesn't require more than someone organizing a few people who care to volunteer a couple of evenings per month.

quote:

More cultural interference?


I'm not fond of cultural interference. I believe people must effect change from inside. That freedom is earned, and power taken. That no long term good comes from giving either, as what is given is merely an illusion. But, I do believe that an individual can teach, can inspire, can show people what potential we have as humans and how to realize it. The imporant thing is to walk the path with them, not for them. Don't carry them up the hill. Show them that the hill is worth climbing, and climb it with them. When they stumble, offer a hand. But if they don't make the climb themselves, they will never be able to show others, nor to walk alongside others to offer them a hand when they stumble.

My faith draws on the Abrahamic lineage. That lineage includes several figures that inspired their contemporaries. The records indicate one of them was from India, or at least spent much time there. Supposedly, he returned there after being crucified. A report I read indicates he did much good for women there, and elsewhere (though much of that was undone by the Romans and eventually the Catholic church). It is not inappropriate for others to inspire respect for women, nor does it seem India is entirely immune to learning such respect.

I'm not going to tell you to go out into the world to fix shit, especially when there's so much you could probably fix back at home. That's where I prefer to work: in my immediate surroundings, the places I consider to be 'mine' at some level. It is also where I know the most about the context I'm working in. But appearances to the contrary, I am not nearly as large a fan of mental masturbation as my posting indicates. I used to be.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/18/2012 10:15:07 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

There is very much an ethical implication sex selection, it is simply silly to argue otherwise, gender is not a debilitating medical condition.


Correction, then: there is no additional ethical implication for society beyond what is inherent in elective abortions. If you give free choice to the women, there are ethical issues with that, and sex selection is subsumed under those, as the choice is not being made by society anymore.

Of course, if you're arguing that abortions should only be permitted when the child has a debilitating medical condition, you're taking a different stance on several key issues, as well as introducing the ethical issues for society of deciding the criterion that are to be applied to all these children.

quote:

It's got nothing to do with gender selection, they're separate topics, not at all sure how you managed to combine them - related, but only peripherally.


Hardly peripherally. Gender targetted microloans in an area such as India is a potentially good way to improve women's conditions there, or at least give them a shot at improving them. Improving women's conditions leads to a decrease in sex selective abortions (and abortions in general, incidentally). Whether you're pushing the cart, or pulling it, that's the same thing; nothing peripheral about that.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/19/2012 3:44:18 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

There is very much an ethical implication sex selection, it is simply silly to argue otherwise, gender is not a debilitating medical condition.


Correction, then: there is no additional ethical implication for society beyond what is inherent in elective abortions. If you give free choice to the women, there are ethical issues with that, and sex selection is subsumed under those, as the choice is not being made by society anymore.

Of course, if you're arguing that abortions should only be permitted when the child has a debilitating medical condition, you're taking a different stance on several key issues, as well as introducing the ethical issues for society of deciding the criterion that are to be applied to all these children.

It's an ethical issue for the doctor, it's an ethical issue for the culture at large to some extent due to the social problems associated with distortions of the male:female ratio, there are ethical issues.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

It's got nothing to do with gender selection, they're separate topics, not at all sure how you managed to combine them - related, but only peripherally.


Hardly peripherally. Gender targetted microloans in an area such as India is a potentially good way to improve women's conditions there, or at least give them a shot at improving them. Improving women's conditions leads to a decrease in sex selective abortions (and abortions in general, incidentally). Whether you're pushing the cart, or pulling it, that's the same thing; nothing peripheral about that.

Health,
al-Aswad.
I guess I was a little more concerned initially about women being blackmailed for their doweries and then burned alive if they didn't come through, that and being abandoned wholesale in orphanages, being trafficked, etc., under which conditions sex-selective abortions actually make sense, given that there are distinct quality of life issues involved, albeit, those issues are artificially induced. It's still a peripheral issue, in light of the other things, sex selection looks like a pretty minor issue for them.

Back to square one - sure, if microloans eased that situation along with the others, it would be good for India - as it is it seems they are addicted to misery - every other economy where the women go to work, takes off, and why not? You're essentially doubling the labor supply almost instantly, there is almost no way the macroeconomy can not benefit from that.

That was covered in the video, I'm really not focusing on what they should do, I'm sure there are plenty of people in a better position to tell them that, I'm only suggesting things we might do, things that are within our power.

In any case the ultrasound discussion was in regards to what happens over here, you can't control what happens over there, they have Black market ultrasound machines.

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RE: Civilized Discourse or Passion? - 1/21/2012 1:45:48 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It's an ethical issue for the doctor,


Depends on whether the patient is making the reasons known, and whether the doctor is ethically responsible for making a choice as to whether or not to perform the relevant procedure (around here, it's considered to be the case that they're not, if they've agreed to perform any abortions at all; if they're Ob Gyns, they also have a legal obligation to do it in all cases where it's requested).

quote:

it's an ethical issue for the culture at large to some extent due to the social problems associated with distortions of the male:female ratio, there are ethical issues.


No, it causes an issue, but the directly applicable ethics are subsumed under the general debate of choice vs not.

quote:

It's still a peripheral issue, in light of the other things, sex selection looks like a pretty minor issue for them.


I misread your earlier point. My mistake.

quote:

In any case the ultrasound discussion was in regards to what happens over here, you can't control what happens over there, they have Black market ultrasound machines.


True. You have to work toward general change if you want to change that one thing, i.e. change the context.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xssve)
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