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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 3:56:19 PM   
Slavehandsome


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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 4:57:53 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		An interesting article on Mossad and the U.S. If true, and there is little reason to think it isnt, what does it say for so called allies.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 5:29:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Who knows precisely where the disinformation (from both sides) starts or stops, or even if it applies in this instance?

However, the claim was that the Soviets "were entirely responsible* for the entire "Nuclear Free" movement back in the 80s". There are an awful lot of peace activists in Europe and elsewhere who would take issue with, if not pour scorn, on that particular claim.

* my emphasis.

You can argue the details if you wish, but I was in Europe at the time, and was particularly interested in those events, which is why I mentioned them.

I'd suggest if you wish to argue the details, spend some time learning about them, and if you want to argue that the Soviets were only 98% responsible instead of 100% responsible, feel free.

The fact is that many Soviet supported front groups and useful idiot organizations could be used for multiple purposes at multiple times.  The "Nuclear Free Europe" program that I'm discussing was a dedicated program funded and directed by the Soviets for a very specific purpose: keeping American Pershings out of Europe.

Firm


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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 6:17:56 PM   
xBullx


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Allies my friend are merely a matter of convenience.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 6:38:25 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

@politesub53.

Allies my friend are merely a matter of convenience.



Isnt that the truth.

All the more reason for the story I mentioned to have some substance.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 6:41:25 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You can argue the details if you wish, but I was in Europe at the time, and was particularly interested in those events, which is why I mentioned them.

I'd suggest if you wish to argue the details, spend some time learning about them, and if you want to argue that the Soviets were only 98% responsible instead of 100% responsible, feel free.

The fact is that many Soviet supported front groups and useful idiot organizations could be used for multiple purposes at multiple times.  The "Nuclear Free Europe" program that I'm discussing was a dedicated program funded and directed by the Soviets for a very specific purpose: keeping American Pershings out of Europe.

Firm



It still doesnt prove your argument. Those of us who actually live in Europe would disagree. I recall an article about CND by Stephen Dorril, who has written many books on the machinations of the UK secret service, in which he claims CND were slurred by an American financed agency called CP S or something like that. This ageancy claimed that the Russians finanaced CND, MI6 found no credible proof, despite having CND leaders under constant survellience.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 6:49:51 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
An interesting article on Mossad and the U.S. If true, and there is little reason to think it isnt, what does it say for so called allies.

It is hard to give the article credence as it includes numerous links but not one tying that agency to the terrorist group with respect to falsely involving the CIA, just claims by Iran featured in two linked articles that the US, Israel and/or Britain were behind a number of attacks some years ago. The principle assertion of the article relies solely on the views of officials and retired CIA agents that are all unnamed. There was a response to the article suggesting the claims are unlikely. Besides it's bizarre to suggest that the US doesn't get its hands dirty anymore which is one of the main contentions of the piece.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 1/20/2012 7:00:41 PM >

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 7:36:35 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

I'd suggest if you wish to argue the details, spend some time learning about them, and if you want to argue that the Soviets were only 98% responsible instead of 100% responsible, feel free.

The fact is that many Soviet supported front groups and useful idiot organizations could be used for multiple purposes at multiple times.  The "Nuclear Free Europe" program that I'm discussing was a dedicated program funded and directed by the Soviets for a very specific purpose: keeping American Pershings out of Europe.


Firm I am not the person advancing these far-fetched claims. There is no onus on me to do anything whatsoever. Nor do I intend to do anything as things stand except continue to dismiss out of hand such self serving fantasies as those in the OP.

The onus is on the person making the claims to prove them. Thus far no evidence to support your claims has been presented. Until such time as credible independent evidence to support the wild claims made in the OP (and later in the thread) is presented, I'll continue to rubbish those claims.

In short if you want your claims taken seriously produce some evidence to show why they should be taken seriously and not dismissed as pure speculation that (surprise! surprise!) just happens to dovetail neatly with your highly edited ideologically-driven world view.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/20/2012 7:37:47 PM >

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 7:53:28 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

An interesting article on Mossad and the U.S. If true, and there is little reason to think it isnt, what does it say for so called allies.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

Very interesting link. Thanks politesub.

Like you I'm inclined to give some credibility to this article. Israel has a long history of manipulating and ruthlessly exploiting the US and US goodwill towards Israel for its own ends, contemptuously ignoring US interests as it does so. This is just another piece of evidence to join the existing mountain of evidence supporting that perspective - check out the USS Liberty incident for example. Or google Jonathan Pollard.

As a side note, this sordid affair demonstrates that Israeli concerns about 'terrorism' are driven by mere expediency. When it suits the Israelis, they're more than happy to deal with terrorists.

This casts Israel's refusal to negotiate with certain Palestinians groups in a new light too. This refusal is now revealed as an expedient ploy to postpone meaningful peace talks until the theft of the West Bank is complete, making it consistent with all other Israeli ploys and attitudes towards the 'peace process'.

So perhaps pointing fingers at the Russians for murders everyone knows full well advance only Israeli interests isn't as mindless as it first appears. Yet another red herring from the Zionist lobby to divert attention away from Israeli culpability, hypocrisy and intransigence?

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 8:02:52 PM   
VideoAdminGamma


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Status: offline 		This is just a reminder to please stay on topic. Just because my attention may be distracted elsewhere does not mean I do not keep an eye on things. Everyone's cooperation during this time will be greatly appreciated.

Below is a copy of the OP for those that need a refresher.

VideoAdminGamma


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Personally, I vote for the Russians.

No one seems to even think about them.  All the suspicion is on the US and Israel.

But - despite Obama's exception for "terrorist" - US policy isn't to allow assassinations.  And, truthfully, I don't think we have a robust enough network in country to do the things that are being done.

Israel, I doubt as well, since their preferred methods before (with Iraq, and then Syria) is to wait until the weapons are at a critical juncture and then simply bomb the crap out of everything until nothing but dirt is left.  As well, it exposes their entire network to exposure, and if proof comes out that they are behind it, it would give a perfect excuse for an Islamic Jihad against them.

But the Russians ... ahhh, the Russians ...

While they have been selling things to the Iranians, they can't really want an unstable country with nukes on their doorstep, and they have a historical interest in the area.  As well, they are known to be ready and willing to "not play nice" (don't know if it's common knowledge what they did in Lebanon about the time all the US citizens were being taken hostage, but the result was that the "terrorist" decided it was safer just to leave Russians alone).  The actions against Somalia pirates is indicative of their attitude about screwing around with Russians.

Plus, since they are more or less seen as a "friendly" nation to Iran, they travel and move much more freely in Iran, and have a large, diverse population to draw from, that can melt into the different ethnic and linguistic peoples of Iran.

In other words, they have the ability, the need, and the opportunity.  Plus, they can always lay it on the doorstep of the US and/or Israelis.

I think it's the Russians killing the scientist.  What's your opinion?

Firm




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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 8:40:18 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Who knows precisely where the disinformation (from both sides) starts or stops, or even if it applies in this instance?

However, the claim was that the Soviets "were entirely responsible* for the entire "Nuclear Free" movement back in the 80s". There are an awful lot of peace activists in Europe and elsewhere who would take issue with, if not pour scorn, on that particular claim.

* my emphasis.

You can argue the details if you wish, but I was in Europe at the time, and was particularly interested in those events, which is why I mentioned them.

I'd suggest if you wish to argue the details, spend some time learning about them, and if you want to argue that the Soviets were only 98% responsible instead of 100% responsible, feel free.

The fact is that many Soviet supported front groups and useful idiot organizations could be used for multiple purposes at multiple times.  The "Nuclear Free Europe" program that I'm discussing was a dedicated program funded and directed by the Soviets for a very specific purpose: keeping American Pershings out of Europe.

Firm



Firm

I'm not going to dismiss your theory entirely, even though I feel it improbable.

I say this because I have a different understanding of how things in Europe are structured and even today in many respects it's still as divided between East and West as it was during the Cold War.

You have quite rightly drawn reference to the 'Nuclear Free Europe' program put together by the Soviets but this had little influence outside the former Soviet Bloc and there is not really any connection with many of the other organizations further west who are against nuclear weapons and the siting of American unclear bases on European soil.

You mention the 'useful idiot organizations', does this include organizations such as CND and the Polish Solidarity movement? I doubt very much that the Polish Solidarity movement would have wanted to have anything to do with the Soviets given that the primary objective of Solidarity, i.e. to bring down communism, which had a lot of international support at the time and was a major international influence itself in achieving those political and social changes.

You might also like to research a bit more into the careers of US politicians on the right such as Newt Gingrich who was following the politic of Reagan, Thatcher and Walesa, and see how unrelated this was to that what Mikhail Gorbachev was trying to achieve.

Then you have the splintering of the Solidarity Electoral Action (AWS) which was the political party which rose out of Polish Solidarity and the influence of the International Republican Institute on that process in the late 1990's at the end of the Jerzy Buzek government and how that led to the formation of various right wing political parties such as the Law and Justice party set up by the Kaczynski twins all aligned with the Polish Catholic Church and the break away Citizen's Platform (PO) where original Solidarity members such as Aleksander Hall and Adam Michnik went in a different direction from Lech Walesa himself and the Kaczynski twins.

Indeed then you have the the fact that Bush saw Poland as an important ally in the war on terrorism and invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and one of the first units sent to the Middle East together with Wladyslaw Cimoszewicz was the elite GROM crack Polish commandos (similar to the UK's SAS and US equivalent).

At this point you might ask yourself, why is the United States so interested in Poland as an ally? Particularly when Poland remains the only European member state (AFAIK) excluded from the US Visa Waiver Program - so it can't be an interest in the Polish cheap labour workforce of migrant workers - well not as much as the Blair government was which was why he was so much in favour of the accession of the former Soviet Bloc states into the European Union.

I am aware of the fact that some military bases in Poland were taken over when Poland joined NATO in 1995 but I cannot say how many are American and I doubt that would be public information anyway. It's some time since I worked for the Polish Ministry of Defence and Industrial Development Agency and since coming back to the UK I have not maintained much of an interest in Polish politics.

But then you also have to look at the actual situation which is going on in Iran itself at the moment.

Away from here I do quite a bit of advocacy work for the human rights organization United4Iran and currently the NCADP mainly on death penalty issues and contacting various organizations and politicians whenever there are execution alerts - which are frequent at the moment as Iran as overtaken the US as the second leading per capita state after China in the number of people it executes - Iran has a terrible human rights record, some of those executed are foreign nationals and it can be soul-destroying work because even when you think there's been a stay of execution the condemned prisoner can disappear and there is no guarantee that they are executed anyway in secret.

It's also important to remember that these Iranian nuclear scientists may not actually be nuclear scientists connected with nuclear weapons at all but bonafide physicists and nuclear scientists interested in the development of nuclear power for humanitarian and non-military purposes.

I can give the example of the killing of one such scientist Massoud Ali Mohammadi (from an article by Jon Leyne, the BBC correspondent for Iran) where immediately after his killing the Iranian media were quick to point out that Dr Mohammadi was a nuclear scientist killed by Zionists, revolutionaries and agents of 'the global arrogance'.

However I for one would strongly suspect propaganda seeing what could be a very clear implication to lay the blame for the killing on a Western plot to sabotage the Iranian nuclear program.

What makes me suspicious is that these details are usually reported immediately after the killing has taken place where in normal circumstances such information would likely take hours, even days to emerge.

Then there are other things which emerge. For example in the killing of Dr Mohammadi cited above it was revealed that not only was his field quantum physics but that his name eppeared on a list of 240 academics pledging support for Mir Hossein Mousavi who was the leading opposition candidate in the previous disputed presidential elections.

Another thing you have to bear in mind is that Iran is very much isolated in the international community and international relations are notoriously difficult. This was something I learned last year during a meeting of the local Labour Party which guested Stephen Twigg MP, who is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and who served in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office under the Blair government, but who seemed to have little or no awareness of what is actually going on in Iran at the moment.

Therefore to be honest I very much doubt that it is former Soviets or Russians behind the killings of Iranian nuclear scientists and I am also somewhat sceptical that the US and Israel could be behind the killings.

I would even go as far as to strongly doubt that it is Iranian nuclear scientists who are being killed. I feel is more likely the case that these are Iranian scientists and physicists, i.e. bona fide academics who are being systematically murdered by Iranian secret services and counter-revolutionaries and the media are buying the stories of the Iranian media either through a lack of more credible sources or as a way of deflecting attention away from the indifference shown to the struggles of Iranian people under their current regime.

This might give you something to consider.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 9:14:49 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/20/2012 9:40:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I think it's a good theory, Firm. Even if the Russians aren't doing it directly, interest in nuclear stabilty isn't restricted the evil, capitalist west, or to the baaa-aad Israelis. Didn't they go through the Bulgarians for the assassination attempt on the Pope? Something to do with him being Polish, and pain in the ass protesters, IIRC.

It's such a simple method of attack. Ride up to a car in traffic on a motorcycle, slap on a bomb, and get away fast. Any motivated dumbass with balls can do that part, and the getaway is not guaranteed. One car in traffic ahead cuts them off, one citizen hero opens the passenger door, you've got an agent in the hospital who won't be seeing any morphine until he tells the same story three times. Much better to have some separation.

What about the Iranians themselves, though? Surely there are some in that government who are just into it for the power, and not to roll out the red carpet for the 12th Imam. They must understand that an Iranian bomb doesn't move them further into the good life. A faction within the military or militia could easily be motivated to take such action, with all the bits and pieces readily available.

Fun question.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 9:14:59 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		I was going to suggest that the Saudis have much to fear from a nuclear Iran and so are thinking-out-of-the-box candidates. However, after reading Stella's post . . . . nevermind.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 9:22:54 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		One thing it's worth remembering about Iran is the more moderate Arab countries are actually quite pleased that Israel is there giving the lunatics there (and in Syria, come to that) somebody else to get arsey on besides themselves.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 9:32:29 AM   
ashjor911


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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 10:56:49 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		I think you may be underestimating the endurance and enmity of the Shia/Sunni divide. In any event it seems quite reasonable that those in power in Iran are offing their own "unuseful" scientists in an attempt to distract the internal rebels with an external treat. Look how cleverly and effectively the Bush Administration distracted America from the public hearings of the 9/11 Commission. [I think I just created a new conspiracy theory! ]

With regards to Iran I think Stella makes a cogent case.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 11:06:58 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Stella,

Long, interesting post.  Food for several threads, I think.

Thank you.

As for direct impact on this thread, I thank you again.  The concept of the Iranians themselves killing the scientists for their own internal political reasons, and then using it as a propaganda club against their other enemies is a pretty good theory that I hadn't thought of.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/21/2012 11:07:19 AM >

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 11:58:10 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

Richard Silverstein of the Israeli news outlet Tikkun Olam put an end to the uncertainty when he reported: “My own confidential Israeli source confirms today’s murder was the work of Mossad and MEK.” (The People’s Mujahedin of Iran [MEK] is a terrorist organization that advocates the overthrow of the Islamic Republic of Iran.)

Reference: http://americanfreepress.net/?p=2381

K.

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RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? - 1/21/2012 12:07:05 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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Status: offline 		Coming wide out from left field is the French. Don't underestimate their propensity to get very wet & illegal if they see the need.
The need may wel be the truth getting out about how much assistance the nuclear programme got from France.

Just a thought.

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