RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/22/2012 1:27:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I think it's the Russians killing the scientist.  What's your opinion?


China.

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2012/01/china-begins-to-turn-against-iran/

oooohhhhh!

Good one, Aylee!

Firm



Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/22/2012 2:07:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Who gives a flying fuck about justification?
MOSSAD is a spook organisation, and if they didn't do assassinations (which I'm afraid that they do, and have done for a long time) then they'd be pretty useless for protecting Israel's interests, wouldn't they?

I never said they didn't do assassinations. In fact I said repeatedly from the start on this thread that they were very possible contenders. However, unlike yourself and Polite, I don't blame them implicitely, especially when there are other parties that have a strong interest in not seeing a nuclear Iran either, e.g. Saudi Arabia who were pleading with the US to take action. Besides which Iran subsequently said themselves that they had proof the US were behind the assassination - see link on page one. Now I am as skeptical as the next man when it comes to trusting the word of that regime but if they had proof it was Mossad they would hardly go around blaming another slightly lesser enemy, would they?

ETA: if it was the US I say good on them if this individual was involved in the Nuclear programme. Its hardly legal but this is a messy world, and it would get a good deal more messy if Iran was allowed develop its nuclear capabilities - why else do you think several Arab nations are also shit scared?



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/22/2012 4:30:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

To sum up to date:

1.  Possibly Russia
2.  Iran itself,
3.  Those dirty fucking Israelis  [8|]
4.  The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis. [8|]
5.  Arabs, especially Sunnis.

About right so far? [8D]

Firm


Nice summation, except for the order.
Please note you are the only one using the term "those dirty fucking Israelis" [8|]



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/22/2012 5:42:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

To sum up to date:

1.  Possibly Russia
2.  Iran itself,
3.  Those dirty fucking Israelis  [8|]
4.  The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis. [8|]
5.  Arabs, especially Sunnis.

About right so far? [8D]


Nice summation, except for the order.
Please note you are the only one using the term "those dirty fucking Israelis" [8|]

Well, I'm just summarizing the "dirty stinking Israelis" posters' arguments for brevity, polite. [8D]

I guess we need to add China to the mix as well, too:

1. Those dirty fucking Israelis, 
2. The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis,
3. Iran itself,
4. Arabs, especially Sunnis,
5. Russia,
6. China.

Is that order better and the list more complete, ya think, now?  [8D][;)]

Firm



tweakabelle -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/22/2012 9:22:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras


ETA: if it was the US I say good on them if this individual was involved in the Nuclear programme. Its hardly legal but this is a messy world, and it would get a good deal more messy if Iran was allowed develop its nuclear capabilities - why else do you think several Arab nations are also shit scared?


This appears to me to be a clear unequivocal statement of support for terrorism/terrorist activity - specifically the extra-judicial murder of people seen as political dangers.* To make it worse, the statement contains an open admission of the illegality of such murders.

I won't even bother commenting on how fatally support for terrorism/terrorist activity like this compromises self-proclaimed opposition to 'terrorism' elsewhere - I have long been inclined to the view that Zionist 'opposition' to terrorism is based in expediency and convenience rather than any principled position. So I for one am not the least bit surprised by the overt double standards and blatant hypocrisy.

* Just a tip: If I were you, Anax, I'd put off any visits to the US for the time being. Statements of support for terrorists/terrorism are illegal there and regularly punished by lengthy jail sentences. Rightly so too.




tweakabelle -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 12:13:10 AM)

quote:

FirmHandKY
Well, I'm just summarizing the "dirty stinking Israelis" posters' arguments for brevity, polite


You'll have to specify precisely the posts and/or arguments that mention "dirty stinking Israelis" or "dirty fucking Israelis" to me - I haven't seen any on the thread.

Needless to say, the use of this kind of language is blatantly anti-Semitic. It's odd that none of our resident Zionists feel the need to protest about it. I wonder why ....?



Rule -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 1:21:24 AM)

It is bad language, a civilized person unworthy.



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 2:30:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Well, I'm just summarizing the "dirty stinking Israelis" posters' arguments for brevity, polite. [8D]

I guess we need to add China to the mix as well, too:

1. Those dirty fucking Israelis, 
2. The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis,
3. Iran itself,
4. Arabs, especially Sunnis,
5. Russia,
6. China.

Is that order better and the list more complete, ya think, now?  [8D][;)]

Firm



At present I wouldnt have the US second, I wouldnt have China in the list either, since they get a lot of oil from Iran. (22% of Irans oil goes to China)
It could be another Muslim faction, doing it for a large cash sum. Being logical and going by reasons for carrying it out, Israel still comes out top.




Moonhead -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:43:32 AM)

Do China actually need the oil, or are they just stockpiling? They have a few other sources for the stuff, after all.

The point that Anaxagoras makes that does stand up, is that most of the more moderate regimes in the area have almost as serious issues with Iran as Israel does. Possibly more so: if Israel does get wiped off the map, the Arabs can get back to their sectarian squabbling again, which will be very bad news for anybody who's in the habit of exporting oil to the Great Satan, never mind those countries that are gearing up to give women the vote...



VideoAdminGamma -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 5:54:03 AM)

Fast reply

Please refrain from commenting on another poster, and instead please comment on the original post or any slight thread drift.

Thank you for your contribution to the forums,
VideoAdminGamma



Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 6:30:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
FR:

To sum up to date:

1.  Possibly Russia
2.  Iran itself,
3.  Those dirty fucking Israelis  [8|]
4.  The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis. [8|]
5.  Arabs, especially Sunnis.

About right so far? [8D]


Nice summation, except for the order.
Please note you are the only one using the term "those dirty fucking Israelis" [8|]

Well, I'm just summarizing the "dirty stinking Israelis" posters' arguments for brevity, polite. [8D]

I guess we need to add China to the mix as well, too:

1. Those dirty fucking Israelis, 
2. The US by supporting those dirty fucking Israelis,
3. Iran itself,
4. Arabs, especially Sunnis,
5. Russia,
6. China.

Is that order better and the list more complete, ya think, now?  [8D][;)]

Firm

You're right on the money Firm. There is an element of Israeli bashing in this activity. For example one contributor characterised the suggestion that it could be Russia as an effort by the Zionist lobby:
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
So perhaps pointing fingers at the Russians for murders everyone knows full well advance only Israeli interests isn't as mindless as it first appears. Yet another red herring from the Zionist lobby to divert attention away from Israeli culpability, hypocrisy and intransigence?

I never saw any of your comments as being particularly pro or anti-Israel so I don't see how anyone could make out you are a member of the dreaded "Zionist lobby" from your posts so one could suggest this is an effort to shoot down any legitimate argument about who it might be because it gets in the way of demonising that one State they hate so much.

BTW a contributor on this thread suggests I support terrorist activity, and would be imprisoned if visiting the US. Yet the same person has said repeatedly that Israel has absolutely nothing to fear from Iran. Such views whitewash the fact that Iran is perhaps the biggest sponsor of state funded terrorism in the world (e.g. giving Hizbullah alone around 200 million dollars a year), drove a good deal of the terrorist insurgency in Iraq - the vast majority of which was taregtted at the civilian populace as a study I quoted before in the medical journal Lancet pointed out. Said individual also characterised some dubious middle-eastern groups as "resistance" in the past whilst constantly describing Israel as a terrorist entity. To clarify my point, I stated that the killing was a good thing only if he was involved with the effort to arm Iran with a nuclear weapon. Iran has threatened Israel with extinction, threatened the US, Britain and the West more generally, and even its Arab neighbours in recent days. Now they are trying to close off a shipping lane, a la Suez.

If the nuclear scientist was a civilian with nothing to do with arming Iran with WMD then it is just to condemn it. However, if he was truly involved with the arming of such a state with a nuclear weapon then his killing is more than justified from a moral perspective. It is a parallel of the old "would it be right to have killed Hitler before he became a powerful figure" argument. If anyone says no because it is wrong to kill then they in effect put his life on a parallel with the lives of tens of millions through war and mass genocide. Citing Hitler is an extreme example but there is every possibility Iran will use Nuclear weaponry in a destructive fashion so I think the killing of such an individual is morally justified.



tweakabelle -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 2:31:07 PM)

quote:

To clarify my point, I stated that the killing was a good thing only if he was involved with the effort to arm Iran with a nuclear weapon.


Ignoring the (often fictitious) rest of your post, I see you confirm your approval of the murder of two civilians. By your own account, it appears that what is important to you is not the terrorist act but who executed the act and who gains from the execution.

People here can make their own assessments of whether the the deliberate targeting of a civilian and cold blooded extra-judicial execution of two civilians, by exploding a bomb in a public street in a civilian area in the middle of a city in broad daylight is an act of terrorism or not. If this happened in NYC, or any where in the West or Israel, there wouldn't be any doubt about its terrorist nature would there?

In my book the extra-judicial murder of an Iranian scientist and his civilian driver is a clear cut unambiguous act of terrorism. If a person's support for this act is unequivocal, then it naturally follows that said person supports terrorism whenever terrorist aims happen to coincide with a given political agenda.

All the spin in the world can't alter this glaringly obvious fact, so further discussion of this issue with you is pointless.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 3:14:05 PM)

So... What is your definition of "terrorism", anyway?



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:23:07 PM)

Blowing up civillians in city streets has to fall under that definition Firm, even though he was a scientist.



Aylee -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:34:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So... What is your definition of "terrorism", anyway?

Using violence to instill fear in order to convince someone to do things a certain way politically.

Of course, certain posters believe that only Jews or Israel commit terrorism. The other folks/nations just create man-made disasters.



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:38:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Using violence to instill fear in order to convince someone to do things a certain way politically.

Of course, certain posters believe that only Jews or Israel commit terrorism. The other folks/nations just create man-made disasters.



if you mean me, thats bullshit I have never claimed anything of the sort.

In this case though, I do blame Israel. Nothing else makes sense.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:40:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blowing up civillians in city streets has to fall under that definition Firm, even though he was a scientist.


Terrorism from Wikipedia:

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion. In the international community, however, terrorism has no universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition.[1][2] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). Some definitions now include acts of unlawful violence and war. The use of similar tactics by criminal organizations for protection rackets or to enforce a code of silence is usually not labeled terrorism though these same actions may be labeled terrorism when done by a politically motivated group.

The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged,[3] and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”.[4][5] The concept of terrorism may itself be controversial as it is often used by state authorities (and individuals with access to state support) to delegitimize political or other opponents,[6] and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may itself be described as "terror" by opponents of the state)

I think, before we start calling people on the forums "terrorists" we should define what we mean, since it has such a vague and uncertain definition.

Or before we start calling the killing of the scientist "terrorism", either.

After all, the term "terrorists" seems to have become one of those all encompassing words, which seems to just mean "you are a bastard and I disagree with you and want to insult you, de-legitimize your argument without actually refuting it and get away with it".  Like having cake and eating it too, yanno. [8D]

So, unless that is what tweak means by calling Anax a "terrorists", I don't think we can discuss "terrorism" without discussing our definitions in these contexts. Nor do I think you and I can have a civil discussion about whether or not the attacks are "terrorist" attacks, unless we understand where we are both coming from.

I don't believe the attacks on the scientist qualify as "terrorism".  You do.  No discussion can follow unless we understand what we mean, and why we are making those distinctions.

Firm



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:45:08 PM)

If you had ever been in the streets when a bomb went off, you would indeed call it terrorism (I have so I will stick with my view)

If I had wanted to antagonise, I could have used the real word...... Murder, which is what it undoubtedly is.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:50:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If you had ever been in the streets when a bomb went off, you would indeed call it terrorism (I have so I will stick with my view)

If I had wanted to antagonise, I could have used the real word...... Murder, which is what it undoubtedly is.

Well, "murder" is the unlawful killing.

By US law, now, if the US ordered it, it would be lawful, and therefore not murder.

I suspect Israeli law has provisions to make such acts lawful as well.

As no doubt do the Chinese, Russians, Saudis and quite a few other suspects in these activities.

Hell, if the Iranians are doing it themselves, it would not only be lawful, it would be blessed by Allah.

So, murder seems unlikely to me.[8D]

Firm



Politesub53 -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/23/2012 4:58:56 PM)

It is debatable if such killings, even authorised, are debatable under International Law though.

I say this even though I have backed the use of Drones by both Bush and Obama, provided they have 100% info on any targets.



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